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Neo_Genesis
The Assassin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 3050
Location: The Netherlands |
| Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas -- RPG aspects? |
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I think everybody knows the new GTA game, called San Andreas. I played it for two weeks now, and I am totally addicted. but in my playing time some things caught my attention. I don't know if they really are RPG aspects or just extras for such a game. with "things" I mean this:
Muscles -- you can train in a gym to gain more muscles and become stronger, you can also learn new moves.
Weapon Skill -- with each weapon you have a certain skill, which upgrades if you practise in a ammu-nation (special weapon shop). it also reaches higher levels if you shoot much in public. there are three ranks, called Noob, Gangster and Hitman (I'm not sure about the first one). and in between those there are small upgrades like better aiming etc.
Driving skill -- with each vehicle you have a special skill. motorcycle skill, cycling skill, driving skill... there are skills for all vehicles. when one is upgraded, you become much better in it. like on a bike, you can bunny hop higher, and fall off less.
Sex appeal -- with better clothes, better moves and more muscles you gain more Sex appeal. this "skill" attracts more women, and let's people talk nice to you (in the beginning they only call you names, later in the game they become nice to you).
Fat -- wanna be a muscled macho, or a fat pimp?... you can choose, eat very much, and you will become fat in the end. you don't eat at all, you will starve to death. I don't like to use a fat char, but some people do, it can be very funny at some times.
stanima -- your lung capicity, and your speed depends on stanima. how more you run, how better it becomes. you can also train it in the gym.
there are much more of such skills, but I have to search for it then, and I am not on the playstation right now 
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Always wondering how it would be... |
Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:02 am |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
I've read about these things in previews and was very interested in them, but I wasn't sure just how they'd work in the final game. Thanks for going into detail, Neo, you've told me what I wanted to know.
It seems that the impression given in the previews I read was right - this is what RPGs should have been doing for years now! Take the character development away from character-sheet number-crunching and put it in the gameplay!!! It pains me that RPG development is so firmly stuck in the past, and (while San Andreas genuinely does look like a very good game) it also pains me that a non-RPG is teaching such a brilliant lesson in RPG design (although it will probably be ignored). It's no wonder the genre is at a low point right now.
The closest I've seen to acheiving this kind of system has been in the Elder Scrolls games, but they are still held back by some questionable balancing issues. I long to see an RPG with character development as intelligent as in San Andreas - not only does it make for a better, more seamless gameplay experience, it's more realistic than the methods most RPGs use.
I'm just now debating whether to get San Andreas right now on PS2 or wait til next year when it comes out on PC (because that version will probably have some modding ability, and I would dearly love to remake my Vice City monowheel mod!) |
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Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:09 pm |
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Neo_Genesis
The Assassin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 3050
Location: The Netherlands |
yes, most of these things I have seen in San Andreas looked to me like a very good way to create realistic RPG style games. not only learning things will make you better, also doing things will make you more skilled. the best skill for that is your muscles to me. when you train, they get bigger (and training is also very realistic, you can chose what kind of device you want to use, and then you must push do push ups for example by tapping on X and O). but when you don't train much, and are doing lazy things, like only driving, your mucles will slowly lose size, and you will become less strong. but, on the other hand, when you run alot (like I do) and swim alot (yes, swimming is possible in SA) you will also gain muscles.
waiting for SA for the pc is also a good idea, for as you mentioned, will be capable of using mods. but you will have to wait till februari for that
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Always wondering how it would be... |
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Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:57 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
This is nothing new. Games have been using this system for years.
Examples:
Daggerfall
Ultima Online
Black & White
Morrowind
Fable
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:15 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Well yeah, like I said, the Elder Scrolls games have done it (with Arena being the earliest example of this type of system that I'm aware of), but to my knowledge none of these games completely remove the need for what is effectively a simulation of p&p - ie, having to look at the character sheet to make some decisions about character development. Even Morrowind fell back on old favourites like levelling-up and spending points on stats, and many of the skills' advancement were difficult or impossible to assess without checking your numbers - IMO this kind of thing should be left in the past, all character development should be performed (and the results tangible) in gameplay, and the character sheet should probably be kept for the hardcore RPGers who want to look at it, but it should never be a necessary port-of-call for making decisions about your character. A page of numbers and check-boxes is not a good game, or a good part of one. That is my forward-looking, evolve-the-genre, to-hell-with-tradition opinion 
Deus Ex is probably the best example of an RPG in which you can see the effects of your character's improvement - if your aim with a rifle or pistol has improved, you can see that it's improved and can feel the benefit in combat. If you've become a better swimmer, it's immediately apparent as soon as you take to the water. Unfortunately Deus Ex used the crusty old "earn points then spend them" approach to improvement. The Elder Scrolls games did an equally good job of displaying improvement in any movement-related skills, but the combat skills unfortunately were not as demonstrative (swinging a sword or firing an arrow looked the same whether your skill was 1 or 100, so you'd only get an impression of your character's proficiency after the fact, ie by counting how many hits it took to fell that last opponent - which means you never really feel it). The in-game learning & improvement of the Elder Scrolls series (minus levels and stat-point-spending) and the in-game feedback of Deus Ex would be a great recipe for character development!
Black & White did organic learning well, but its lessons are less useful to the RPG genre, since B&W's character progression was all about behaviour & AI. Obviously that wouldn't really translate well to an RPG, because the player needs to control how his character behaves at all times. Something similar could make a good model for NPC development, though 
San Andreas stands out to me because the development available to the player-character really is as sophisticated as it needs to be in any RPG (maybe you'd like to add a skill for every individual vehicle rather than broad vehicle types, and have a wider range of stats and skills to learn & improve, but the required mechanics are in place), and the results of development are very obvious, yet it is presented in a totally unobtrusive way in a very easy-to-play game. Even apparently-superficial choices like your character's clothing and physical appearance mimic the reputation & NPC reaction systems that many RPGs feature, yet to my knowledge, none have been as elegant or intuitive as in this game. RPGs, even the best ones, are often way more cumbersome than they need to be, and San Andreas should demonstrate this point to RPG developers (and indeed, the RPGs you pointed out that have used slightly less refined character-development models should have pointed the way forward quite clearly), but I have a pessimistic feeling that the vast majority of RPG developers will ignore the lessons on offer - either out of a sheer lack of creativity/talent, or fear of upsetting the hardcore (which is necessary if the genre is to be saved from stagnation). |
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Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:54 am |
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genji
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 11 Dec 2004
Posts: 39
Location: Melbourne, Australia |
I agree on the Deus Ex point - I don't feel like I'm really improving in a weapon or skill if all I'm doing is spending skill points to upgrade it. Of course, using an "improve as you practise" system for an FPS may be difficult for ranged weapons that require a degree of accuracy. I don't want to be still practising my pistol skill when I'm surrounded by enemies who don't have to practise theirs. 
Wizardry 8 handled this well, I think, where you gained points to spend at level ups, but got additional points by practising.
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In dreams I walk with you |
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Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:30 pm |
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Guybrush Threepwood
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 500
Location: Oklahoma |
I think the practicing bit would only work in an MMORPG or if when you started everyone was a crappy fighter like you and got tougher as you got tougher.
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"What are you gonna do? Release the dogs?! Or the bees?! Or dogs with bees in their mouth so that when they bark they shoot bees at you?" - Homer Simpson |
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Thu Jan 27, 2005 7:59 am |
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Malianea
Village Dweller
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 10
Location: Cloud 9 |
The main writer from there is writing for a Hip Hop MMO now
http://www.404gaming.com/DJPooh.php |
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Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:01 pm |
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Dunmer King
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 277
Location: In a land far, far away |
Apparently, San Andreas did the RPG elements about 50 times better then Fable did.
When I get back, I'm going to create a muscled, fat man at the exact same time.  I'll be called the thunderman, creates thunder when he walks and punches!
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Do you know how LAZY you Morrowind people are! Instead of getting up and fighting Dagoth Ur, you send someone to do it for you! Only I'm excused, I AM the king. |
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Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:23 am |
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Alrik Fassbauer
Head Merchant
Joined: 25 Aug 2002
Posts: 50
Location: Germany |
I recently read a short review about GTA. The reviewer called it an "role playing game" (in German, because it was a German review). Yes, right, he called it an "role playing game". Not Adventure, not "RPG elements", but that. I still wonder whether this guy actually knows the differences.
alrik. |
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Fri Apr 08, 2005 9:51 pm |
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Navaros
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 10 May 2003
Posts: 40
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quote:
Originally posted by piln
Deus Ex is probably the best example of an RPG in which you can see the effects of your character's improvement - if your aim with a rifle or pistol has improved, you can see that it's improved and can feel the benefit in combat. If you've become a better swimmer, it's immediately apparent as soon as you take to the water.
gotta strongly disagree with your swimming comments in Deus Ex. maxing out the swimming skill in Deus Ex had zero noticeable effect to me whatsoever. at maximum level, i still swimmed as if my swimming skill was at zero. it was the most useless skill ever. not worth investing any points into at all, ever. unless you have extra points due to using a glitch to get unlimited points.
Betrayal at Krondor had a system of "use the skill during actual gameplay in order to develop it". that was from 1993.
of course you didn't visually see these skills having an effect, but at least they had the right idea
San Andreas has the right idea too. all RPG games should work on that system - do things in the gameplay in order to improve and alter the appearance of your character
it should also be noted that a game called River City Ransom from 1989 did beat San Andreas to the punch with this concept. you could learn awesome new moves in that game by studying up, which was reflected in how your characters moves/fights. of course they did not do this concept to as deep of an extent as San Andreas does, but my point is that San Andreas is not the pioneer of this sort of thing. |
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Mon Apr 25, 2005 4:41 pm |
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