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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
| Dungeon Siege 2: Review @ 1UP |
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The next site to offer up a <a href="http://www.1up.com/do/reviewPage?cId=3142764" target="_blanK">review</a> of 'Dungeon Siege II' is 1UP who awarded the game a score of 7/10.<blockquote><em>Review archives are littered with mediocre follow-up games by designers who started believing their own PR. Don't worry; Chris Taylor isn't joining their ranks. If anything, Dungeon Siege II is a testament to how much he listens to the fans -- perhaps too much so, because instead of a wholly new sequel, this game winds up being more a Dungeon Siege 1.5.</em></blockquote> |
Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:03 pm |
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XVampireX
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 100
Location: Beneath Heaven, But Above Earth. |
I dont understand these people, they first rate the demos a very high score, and then they decide they want to make an average score/rating. 
And also, why would anyone say that this is 1.5 , if everyone knows that Dungeon Siege: Legends of Aranna IS 1.5 . They are jerks looking for every possible letdown of a game, ok, so maybe the game might be easy, DID THEY EVEN BOTHER WITH THE HIGHER DIFFICULTIES? This is how Diablo 2 is arranged, they got 3 difficulties, have to beat each difficulty in order, just like Diablo 2, the first difficulty is easy, so why shouldnt dungeon siege 2 also be easy in the first difficulty? This is just plain retarded.
Im sorry, These ratings just dont satisfy me, they try to make games look bad while the games are actually very good in their own right. 7 is an Average rating for a game.
_________________
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" -Edmund Burke. Mentioned in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. |
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Sat Aug 13, 2005 10:08 pm |
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Znith
Village Dweller
Joined: 24 Jul 2005
Posts: 13
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DS2 is ok.. it's not my fav game but I do like it for what it is. I guess you'll have your DS2 haters and lovers. I think they did a much better job with #2 than with #1 |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 12:14 am |
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Mystery_Guy
Village Dweller
Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 20
Location: U.S. |
That's just the way these wannabe game reviewers do things. They think of something witty and pseudo intelligent to write and even thoguh it isn't what they really want to say, they put it in anyway just to make their article sound professional.
Anyone who has played the game knows that the new features make it an almost entirely new game, whether you like it or not. |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 1:05 am |
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Guest
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I don't argue against generic attitude of critics in any genre but there should be some problems in the final product which isn't so obvious in the demo.
Swarming enemies are quite obvious even in demo but, in IWD2 (more RTS like HnS), for example, magic users had its own AD&D originated protections such as Stone Skin, Mirror Image and Mage Shield. In the final fight, I even watched my Mage standing up against summoned Orges with Mordenkainen's Sword. Didn't Chris Taylor give this kind of options for magic users?
About balancing among character-buids, I think quite many people liked character development system of Lionheart. However, the lack of enough play-tests ended up with some unnecessary skills/abilities and the most effective character turned out to be melee fighter. What's the point of skill system when we cannot finish the game with our favorite character?
Personally, I like skill system. However, some problems with these skill and mana systems in H&S CRPG are more than obvious. Game designers should play games previously released and examine which parts went wrong/right before developing their own games.
I have to mention that I played only IWD2 and, about Lionheart, I heard from people who played them. So, maybe, I'm wrong about some details. I'm not into Diablo style HnS, myself but I don't know why professional designers seem to fail to do basic balancing straight. |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:07 am |
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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
I dont understand these people, they first rate the demos a very high score, and then they decide they want to make an average score/rating.
Hmm perhaps because a demo and a full game are different things?
quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
And also, why would anyone say that this is 1.5 , if everyone knows that Dungeon Siege: Legends of Aranna IS 1.5 .
What are you talking about? 1.5 refers to the fact that it is barely a true sequel, just the same game over again with all the tweaks fans wanted.
quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
They are jerks looking for every possible letdown of a game, ok, so maybe the game might be easy, DID THEY EVEN BOTHER WITH THE HIGHER DIFFICULTIES? This is how Diablo 2 is arranged, they got 3 difficulties, have to beat each difficulty in order, just like Diablo 2, the first difficulty is easy, so why shouldnt dungeon siege 2 also be easy in the first difficulty? This is just plain retarded.
It's not the first difficulty level. It's the "Normal" difficulty level. I am wondering exactly how many times have you played through the game considering it was just released? Reviewers often have the benefit of advance copies to allow them a full playthrough by the time release comes about.
quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
Im sorry, These ratings just dont satisfy me, they try to make games look bad while the games are actually very good in their own right. 7 is an Average rating for a game.
5 is an average rating. 7 is a good rating. |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:20 am |
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XVampireX
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 100
Location: Beneath Heaven, But Above Earth. |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
I don't argue against generic attitude of critics in any genre but there should be some problems in the final product which isn't so obvious in the demo.
Swarming enemies are quite obvious even in demo but, in IWD2 (more RTS like HnS), for example, magic users had its own AD&D originated protections such as Stone Skin, Mirror Image and Mage Shield. In the final fight, I even watched my Mage standing up against summoned Orges with Mordenkainen's Sword. Didn't Chris Taylor give this kind of options for magic users?
About balancing among character-buids, I think quite many people liked character development system of Lionheart. However, the lack of enough play-tests ended up with some unnecessary skills/abilities and the most effective character turned out to be melee fighter. What's the point of skill system when we cannot finish the game with our favorite character?
Personally, I like skill system. However, some problems with these skill and mana systems in H&S CRPG are more than obvious. Game designers should play games previously released and examine which parts went wrong/right before developing their own games.
I have to mention that I played only IWD2 and, about Lionheart, I heard from people who played them. So, maybe, I'm wrong about some details. I'm not into Diablo style HnS, myself but I don't know why professional designers seem to fail to do basic balancing straight.
Here you're comparing Apples to Oranges, not Apples to Apples. Dungeon Siege 2 was never meant to be like IWD2 or BG or LionHeart, Dungeon Siege 2 is a hack and slash action RPG. This is how GPG define it, and same goes to Microsoft.
As a Game Designer (Quite professional I must say) myself, I do not agree (In a way) with what you have said, game designers do exactly what you have said, so there's no need for what you have said in the first place.
And again Dungeon Siege 1 or 2 were never supposed to be D&D style RPG's (Otherwise called CRPGs, which DS is apparently not.... Well, kinda)
STOP COMPARING APPLES TO ORANGES PEOPLE!
_________________
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" -Edmund Burke. Mentioned in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:21 am |
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XVampireX
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 100
Location: Beneath Heaven, But Above Earth. |
quote:
Originally posted by bjon045
quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
I dont understand these people, they first rate the demos a very high score, and then they decide they want to make an average score/rating.
Hmm perhaps because a demo and a full game are different things?
quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
And also, why would anyone say that this is 1.5 , if everyone knows that Dungeon Siege: Legends of Aranna IS 1.5 .
What are you talking about? 1.5 refers to the fact that it is barely a true sequel, just the same game over again with all the tweaks fans wanted.
quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
They are jerks looking for every possible letdown of a game, ok, so maybe the game might be easy, DID THEY EVEN BOTHER WITH THE HIGHER DIFFICULTIES? This is how Diablo 2 is arranged, they got 3 difficulties, have to beat each difficulty in order, just like Diablo 2, the first difficulty is easy, so why shouldnt dungeon siege 2 also be easy in the first difficulty? This is just plain retarded.
It's not the first difficulty level. It's the "Normal" difficulty level. I am wondering exactly how many times have you played through the game considering it was just released? Reviewers often have the benefit of advance copies to allow them a full playthrough by the time release comes about.
quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
Im sorry, These ratings just dont satisfy me, they try to make games look bad while the games are actually very good in their own right. 7 is an Average rating for a game.
5 is an average rating. 7 is a good rating.
1. They are not different things, just the extra play hours.
2. Sequel, New Storyline, New Combat System, New Skill System, New Quest System, New everything.... How is that the same thing over and over again with just a few tweaks from what users have said? Do you know what a sequel actually means?
3. There are 3 difficulty levels, and the first one is apparently EASY (Beginner levels), then goes Normal (Middle levels), then goes Hard (Last levels...). Its the same for Diablo 2, exactly the same thing.
4. 7 is Average, Look into rating system (Average as in, out of all games existing in this universe). I consider 8 to be good, heck at least 7.5 which would be considered as above average. Lets convert this to an out of 5 system, this would be 3.5/5. this is average. (Not in the sense of half of the score)
_________________
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" -Edmund Burke. Mentioned in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 3:30 am |
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Guest
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XVampireX, my previous post is not about tastes but about balancing. If your feeling to DS blinded you, I have already mentioned that IWD2 is more RTS like H&S. IMO, Lionheart is more Diablo style H&S, though. What I am talking of is balancing issues and balance should be kept in each system no matter it is RTS or action CRPG.
Also, I wrote the previous post under the preposition that the reviewer is right, which I wonder if true or not.
quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
As a Game Designer (Quite professional I must say) myself, I do not agree (In a way) with what you have said, game designers do exactly what you have said, so there's no need for what you have said in the first place.
But you don't seem to be able to listen to what people say calmly. If you are really a game designer, (sorry for my suspicion but, in general, I tend not to take un-supported information on the net as my habit.) please, learn to cool down your head before analyzing issues. I'm not a professional designer, but I have my own criticism against my favorite games and AD&D are none of them.
PS In any case, if you need to argue against other peoples opinions (I use IMO, personally, or think quite often), then, probably, it is useless to reply to you any more. |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:07 am |
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XVampireX
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 100
Location: Beneath Heaven, But Above Earth. |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
XVampireX, my previous post is not about tastes but about balancing. If your feeling to DS blinded you, I have already mentioned that IWD2 is more RTS like H&S. IMO, Lionheart is more Diablo style H&S, though. What I am talking of is balancing issues and balance should be kept in each system no matter it is RTS or action CRPG.
Also, I wrote the previous post under the preposition that the reviewer is right, which I wonder if true or not.
quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
As a Game Designer (Quite professional I must say) myself, I do not agree (In a way) with what you have said, game designers do exactly what you have said, so there's no need for what you have said in the first place.
But you don't seem to be able to listen to what people say calmly. If you are really a game designer, (sorry for my suspicion but, in general, I tend not to take un-supported information on the net as my habit.) please, learn to cool down your head before analyzing issues. I'm not a professional designer, but I have my own criticism against my favorite games and AD&D are none of them.
PS In any case, if you need to argue against other peoples opinions (I use IMO, personally, or think quite often), then, probably, it is useless to reply to you any more.
I've played all of the games you have mentioned and I dont see any resemblance to Dungeon Siege 2 nor to Diablo 2. They are all based on specific rules, set in a Dungeons and Dragons world. Dungeon Siege 2 and Diablo 2 are both Hack and Slash only. Dungeon Siege 2 is not meant to be an RTS, either. As I already mentioned, You're comparing Apples to Oranges, not the same kind of product, One tastes like Apples and One tastes like Oranges, well, because they are...
I myself have hated Dungeon Siege 1 when it came out, I didn't like how people liked the combat system, they think just because you can press the mouse button once, then get something to drink in real life and maintain the H and M keys, that this is somehow more "strategical" than being able to do your own actions, how is that more strategical? Wouldn't the one system implemented right now with the free combat method much more strategical because you have to BOTH use the mouse button, AND the healing potions at the same time, this requires ALOT more user based input and skill.
Anyways, I'm also talking about balance, the kind of balance Dungeon Siege 2 might have, because it is spread on 3 different difficulties, As I have not yet played the full product, but only the beta/demo, I must say that balance was pretty well done, I have posted on the main Gas Powered Garage website and they said that the tutorial level is exactly done for balancing, so that your characters wouldn't be overpowered by the monsters (As in, Monsters defeating the characters too easily), the experience gain in the tutorial level was very well done.
However, keep in mind that Dungeon Siege 2 needs its own balancing, not the kind of balancing from different games, what applies to one game does not mean it can also be applied to other, this is the work of the designer, just when you have mentioned that designers should be playing games and seeing if something works and how it works and why it works and what can be improved, which game designers do (Or at least I'm ignorant, because I do that...), this is what I meant in the first place, you were always mentioning games that had nothing to do with dungeon siege in the sense of design, you DONT roll a dice to calculate damage in Dungeon Siege 2, or roll a dice to calculate hit rate (If you hit or miss the target), Dungeon Siege 1/2 is completely hack and slash based, based on completely different rules and completely different balancing issues.
So bear with me, try to understand that I'm not against you or that im very "Hot headed" or "Short Tempered", I'm just tired of people comparing two different things or even an original game to a sequel, because most reviewers do that, they review the game compared to the original game. Instead, they should review it as a standalone game with perhaps a few references to the original. And of course, noto comparing Apples to Oranges, as it is just not right.
_________________
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" -Edmund Burke. Mentioned in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 4:34 am |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
However, keep in mind that Dungeon Siege 2 needs its own balancing, not the kind of balancing from different games, what applies to one game does not mean it can also be applied to other, this is the work of the designer, just when you have mentioned that designers should be playing games and seeing if something works and how it works and why it works and what can be improved, which game designers do (Or at least I'm ignorant, because I do that...), this is what I meant in the first place,
Coinsidence. That's what I am saying from the first place (Sigh). Any game should be balanced in its own system. Actually, rather than coincidence, this is common sense and nothing more than that. I don't understand why you are so eager for categorizing, though.
I simply put an example of IWDII only for showing the balance between each character in its system. The reason I mentioned IWDII as an example is that in the game, there are many situations that hostiles swarming to your party. BGII's magic protection vs dispelling don't suite as an example. In fact, how much is there difference between an RTS and an action CRPG considering protections for specific character builds? Didn't you find the problem with swarming enemies to your magic users in DGII? Probably, the solutions can be different between an action and an RTS style CRPG but the problem itself is similar.
Also, I played Lionheart demo and magic user needed to wait for a while to recover mana. I found a similar issue in DS II demo. If action of magic users is constantly striking with magic spells, then, no-mana means inaction for them. How to avoid this happening and letting players bored? This matter shouldn't count if you categorize Lionheart as an RTS or an action CRPG.
You seem to think the difference of genres is important but doesn't it depend on each problem? You are saying that RTS and action CRPG are different but you haven't even tried to prove that the importance of the difference in each specific case I mentioned above. You are saying an apple is different from an orange but they have common things such as being fruits.
A: "Apples and oranges are different."
B: "But they are common in terms of being fruits."
A: "No, apples and oranges are different."
I have no intension of ridiculing you or being sarcastic (they are over-supplied on the net.) but this doesn't work as a conversation, as I said.
quote:
Originally posted by XVampireX
you were always mentioning games that had nothing to do with dungeon siege in the sense of design, you DONT roll a dice to calculate damage in Dungeon Siege 2, or roll a dice to calculate hit rate (If you hit or miss the target), Dungeon Siege 1/2 is completely hack and slash based, based on completely different rules and completely different balancing issues.
There seems to be miss/hit in DS II demo. A natural magic user miss a lot of magic spells especially in a longer range while a combat magic user is successful in shorter range. I found one of combat magic skills is dedicated to increasing accuracy of magic and gave some points on that. Though, this is only for correction and I'm not so interested in genres and its definitions. |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:02 am |
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XVampireX
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 100
Location: Beneath Heaven, But Above Earth. |
quote:
A: "Apples and oranges are different."
B: "But they are common in terms of being fruits."
A: "No, apples and oranges are different."
To use your logic, Action RPGs and RTS and what not, they are all games, this is how you see things. I say they are different because they work differently...
Edit: And why I say Games, is because Fruits is a category, and so is Games, there are alot of game genres, and alot of different games, as well as there are alot of different fruits, get my point?
_________________
"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" -Edmund Burke. Mentioned in Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:33 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Lionheart has nothing to do with Dungeons & Dragons, just for reference.
Based on my time with the demo, 7/10 seems quite reasonable. It is improved on the original but the combat is still dull and the some of the dialogue is simply embarrassing. I can't see anything that makes it stand out from the crowd and deserve a higher rating, but I can understand some will see it as a nice diversion.
quote:
...you DONT roll a dice to calculate damage in Dungeon Siege 2, or roll a dice to calculate hit rate (If you hit or miss the target), Dungeon Siege 1/2 is completely hack and slash based, based on completely different rules and completely different balancing issues.
I'm not a DS fan, so I stand to be corrected but I doubt this is accurate. If DS doesn't calculate damage with a die roll and modifiers (just like D&D), how is damage calculated? Why do weapons have a damage range? If you are saying there are no die-rolls in DS/2, I think you'll find you are mistaken.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 6:40 am |
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Guest
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XVampireX, This is why I can't believe you are a game designer. You don't seem to be interested in how to prove your favorite games but wining this temporary discussion. I could come up with better examples on similar functions of oranges and apples but it would be rather childish. At least you know I simply dismissed your apples and oranges example in my previous post.
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
Lionheart has nothing to do with Dungeons & Dragons, just for reference.
Yes, it's loosely based on SPECIAL which was developed for Fallout after the companies failed to come to agreement with GRUPS license.
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
quote:
...you DONT roll a dice to calculate damage in Dungeon Siege 2, or roll a dice to calculate hit rate (If you hit or miss the target), Dungeon Siege 1/2 is completely hack and slash based, based on completely different rules and completely different balancing issues.
I'm not a DS fan, so I stand to be corrected but I doubt this is accurate. If DS doesn't calculate damage with a die roll and modifiers (just like D&D), how is damage calculated? Why do weapons have a damage range? If you are saying there are no die-rolls in DS/2, I think you'll find you are mistaken.
It's been already pointed out.
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
There seems to be miss/hit in DS II demo. A natural magic user miss a lot of magic spells especially in a longer range while a combat magic user is successful in shorter range. I found one of combat magic skills is dedicated to increasing accuracy of magic and gave some points on that. Though, this is only for correction and I'm not so interested in genres and its definitions.
BTW, I tried and saw if increasing the accuracy rates save mana points little but at least as far as I played the demo, it didn't seem to have produced significant effects.
Finally, XVampireX, before criticizing anything, please try to support/enhance your points with your knowledge or experiments. It is getting more and more obvious that you don't know what you are talking of.  |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 7:58 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
My comments were aimed at XVampireX, who despite being a professional game designer, seems confused. 
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Sun Aug 14, 2005 8:08 am |
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