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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
I liked the Alien movies (yes, all of them), and I liked Preadator 1 despite Arnold (I was a bit disappointed with No. 2, though). Now... since I read the AvP comic books back then PLUS I'm a huge pred fangirl, I'll definitely go and see this one. I might wait until it hits the local pay TV channel as I'm doing with 95% of today's movies, but I have to see it.
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Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:43 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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How can you hate 'Aliens' with a passion, Gig? 
The story was consistant and plausible (rare in a sequel). The acting was great on the leads... Weaver as horrified but determined to face her fears, Reiser in the only role I liked him in... company weasel... the kid wasn't some superbeing woman-in-child's body. The direction was excellent in selection of scenes, shots, camera angles. The aliens were still scary! (despite their numbers... that's the big thing. Alien was scary because it was one monster killing people in the dark. The more aliens there are the less scary they become.).
I was so chilled (yeah, I was 12) when the woman in the cocoon screamed "Kill me!" and MEANT it (unlike Wussbag in AVP). Ripley's reaction in the command vehicle when it was happening was so accurate it sent sympathy pains.
Aliens was one of the best science fictions I have ever seen. In fact, it sets the bar for me... all other science fictions are weighed against it's elements and to date have been found lacking.
It's not just the individual components (which I found good on their own)... it's how they all blended together seemlessly. I suppose James Cameron is to thank for that (I loved T2 as well).
Personal taste is personal taste... but I don't see how anyone could hate such a well written and well directed science fiction with a passion.
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Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:05 pm |
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RPG Frog
Blade Runner
Joined: 02 Jan 2004
Posts: 748
Location: the Matrix |
quote:
Originally posted by Gig
I hated all of the Alien movies, except for Resurrection, with a passion.
BLASPHEMY. You must be TERMINATED for this insolence.
Wait, I forgive you...
You mentioned Dark City & Blade Runner in the same sentence.
ps. I also hated Terminator3. For me it was a kiddie flick...not enough violence and certainly not as good as T1&2. My friends seemed to love it though. Many of them loved AVP. And yes, I read all the Predator & Aliens comics in the early 90s. Most of them really sucked though. But, this is what I love about movies and music...the oposing views about the same piece of entertainment.
RUMOR - supposedly(probably bogus) Ridley Scott & James Cameron made an offer to 20th Century Fox to cancel AVP. In return they would direct an Alien5 to fix the franchise. Fox said no...and now Ridley & James yanked the offer from the table. Sounds like the kinda rumour I would start...
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Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:07 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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You want great tragedies of movie script "What the hell were they thinking?" examples.... I highly encourage you to try and find a copy of William Gibson's Alien 3 script.
That script was excellent and would have made a fantastic sequel to aliens and the franchise wouldn't have NEEDED fixing. But at the time it would have been way too expensive to do the special effects for...
Which is too damned bad
There is no justice. Gibson is one of my favorite science fiction authors and his script totally did not suck.
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"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Wed Aug 18, 2004 3:26 pm |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
Cool!! Must read script!
@Xen--I know you asked about Aliens specifically but I'm going to start with the first film to establish expectations. First, remember that I said I hated the films--I didn't say that they were bad films. I recognize the validity of the piece even though it isn't my thing.
Alien itself was just so... slow? I mean, it kinda was but that isn't a problem in itself--Alien was paced consistently with other Ridley Scott films. It just really failed to get under my skin and that's a problem for me when it comes to horror films. Alien was plenty frightening, but in the wrong way... the creep factor was too low. I prefer horror films to drive a building sense of dread rather than rely on dark hallways, jump scenes and mucus. Once the jump passes, the tension passes with it and I don't find mucus creepy--just gross. To me it feels like cheap thrills horror.
Alien is a horror film to me and that's all it is. The science fiction element is irrelevant to me. The fact that it took place on a space ship didn't add any wow factor to the movie. The Nostromo only served to punctuate how isolated they were. They had nowhere to go, no-one to help them. That, in and of itself, was the only element I can recall that even attempted to heighten the sense of dread. Outside of that, Alien was just shock horror like the rest in the "don't go into the shadows or Freddie, Jason or the alien will get you. I've always kind of felt that Alien's sci fi trappings gave it somewhat of a leg-up. The backdrop of space appealed to sci fi fans while the typical shock horror formula didn't bring anything special to horror fans.
Now... keep in mind that I already feel that the horror in Alien is tired and formulaic. The time comes (against my will, BTW) to watch Aliens. Remember that I'm a horror fan, not a sci fi fan, so I'm watching for the horror elements. This time however and there are even fewer pure horror elements. Instead of being a sci fi/horror, like Alien, this film is a sci fi/action/horror and the elements that don't appeal to me outnumber the ones that do. Plus, Aliens was too long for my tastes. I can accept story driven films that run long but not action films, I start to get bored. I find this to be true of much of James Cameron's work. These things all combined to make the film less enjoyable for me. I can accept that the story was solid, that Aliens was well directed, well acted and well produced. I know (and agree) that production design was amazing--you could feel how difficult it was to breathe on some of those claustrophobic sets! The finished piece just didn't appeal to me.  |
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Wed Aug 18, 2004 7:40 pm |
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Seth
Last Man Standing
Joined: 23 Jan 2002
Posts: 1008
Location: Faerun |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
Which is too damned bad
Wow, that would be a great movie, what they were thinking?
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Money - An article which may be used as a universal passport to everywhere except heaven, and as a universal provider of everything except happiness. |
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Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:33 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Well, there's no way I could disagree with a well thought out and articulated answer like Gig's. 
More so because she's right from her point of view. I didn't really play Aliens as a horror (or action)... just a science fiction.
Oh, Aliens scared the hell out of me .. I WAS 12 after all and I had never seen an R rated movie before... let alone a horror movie. My mom didn't even let me go see Highlander in theater. It was my first sneaky/defiant R rated movie and it was a doozy.  Even so I didn't think it a horror... just a scary science fiction.
Like a lot of people what scares you most is what you become a fan of... I became a big alien fan a few years later. That's when I started looking at the actual cinematics behind it and appreciating it for the technical triumphs it brought. Watch Alien and Aliens and compare them to science fictions of today, special effects wise. They don't relly lose out! Compare the special effects and sets in Alien to any other science fiction in the 70/80s... only Star Wars comes close.
(As an aside I think that may be part of the reason Seth found the special effects in AVP so-so, as I alluded to. Seriously... there was so little room for improvement in the creature and set designs when compared to the movies that came before that how could it be anything BUT 'average'?)
As for Gibsons script...
One probable stumbling block to it likely was the lack of Ripley. I can imagine the executives going 'no no... she's been in the first two... she's our hook!'. The ALIEN is the hook ... the sense of continuity. Ripley is just a character and after Aliens she deserved time off. (Which is the single greatest thing I disliked about Alien 3 ... it completely negated the hard won battles against fear and for survival of Aliens).
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Aug 19, 2004 2:59 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
I really liked that Gibson script. I love the whole thing with Bishop in two halves, and his new legs 
Was Weaver originally not involved with Alien 3? I've heard so much about it, so long ago, that my memories are all a-muddle now (but it's worth searching for info - the writing & filming were a total farce, and it makes an entertaining, if annoying, read)... but I do know that she had some significant behind-the-camera involvement and has been blamed partly for the wrecking of the series from part 3 on (though, from what I remember, the problems were almost entirely caused by a couple of producers, I forget who).
I just wonder about Gibson's script - iirc, all Ripley's scenes could be filmed without Weaver, and I find it unlikely that Gibson would take it upon himself to write out the series lead. It strikes me that it was part of his brief. But I agree, it's a crying shame that they went ahead with the garbage that became Alien3 (no disrespect to David Fincher, he did a good job as director with what he had to work with). I didn't like Alien4 either, again despite the fact that I really like the director's other films. |
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Thu Aug 19, 2004 8:59 pm |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
Interesting. Resurrection was the only Alien film I liked at all. *shrug* |
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Fri Aug 20, 2004 2:19 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
I thought Ressurrection had an amazing look to it and started out quite well with the attempts at Alien training (was Brad Dourif playing a scientist there, or is my memory playing tricks on me again?), but I didn't like the cartoony characterisations and once the action started, I didn't think Jeunet's quirky style sat well at all (although I love his other films).
Anyway... what about AvP? Any more views? imdb.com seems to indicate a bit of a turkey - but if that's so, I can't say I'm surprised. Do I have the director's name right - Paul WS Anderson? I want to like each film he makes, but he just keeps disappointing. Not sure about AvP, but in the past he's stated that staying true to the licensed material is a high priority for him, and I think he usually acheives that - but he just ain't a great filmmaker. |
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Fri Aug 20, 2004 9:26 pm |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
Hmmm... I think I'm seeing a trend here. I really like Paul W.S. Anderson's films. I loved both Resident Evil and Event Horizon. I think Anderson is a very good filmmaker who turns out a well polished product. Kind of like Peter Jackson without all the tedium.
That isn't really fair. I tend to like Peter Jackson also. I enjoyed The Frighteners very much and I'm looking forward to seeing Jackson's take on King Kong. The LoR stuff just didn't work for me.
The director that I wish would stop is Uwe Boll! He keeps getting great licenses like Alone in the Dark, Far Cry and BloodRayne. I loved BloodRayne, good story, cool imagery, awesome concept... it should be a great movie. I think Kristanna Loken fits the bill nicely. If Ewe Boll gives any of these films the "House of the Dead" treatment, though, I doubt I'll enjoy them. |
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Sat Aug 21, 2004 4:04 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Heh, mabye we are complete opposites when it comes to films?  I quite like Jackson too (first of his that I saw was Bad Taste and I loved it), and I thought the first two LOTRs were OK despite many long-and-pointless segments (not great, but I enjoyed them overall)... but the third did absolutely nothing for me, after the "Smeagol" sequence at the start (I thought Gollum's split-personality conversation with himself in part 2 was the highlight of the whole series). Just out of curiosity, Gig... did you like Ang Lee's Hulk?
I'd never heard of Boll before, and had no idea Bloodrayne and Far Cry rights had been snapped up... that was quick (I guess Asian horror isn't the only fad sweeping Hollywood right now). I did hear that HOTD was a bit of an embarassment though. Good grief, imdb lists Far Cry's leads as Naomi Watts and The Rock! Never thought I'd see those two side-by-side! |
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Sat Aug 21, 2004 8:28 pm |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
House of the Dead looked and felt just like one those low budget, direct to video horror/sci fi/fantasy films that you rent after you've seen everything you've already heard of. It came complete with goofy locations consisting mostly of Gilligan's Island style sound stage sets and "location" footage of the actors, on what was ostensibly an island, running around between pop-up shelters and trite facades.
The dialog was so awkward that it was embarrassing at times and the acting was as stiff as I've ever seen. I'm willing to give the actors the benefit of the doubt here and blame the bad script and openly uninspired direction for their performances. I'd seen at least one of the actors before. The female lead from HotD was in an episode of Andromeda and she was very effective there. I think the script and direction left the actors nowhere to go. The relatively inexperienced cast didn't know how to eek a good performance out of a weak part the way actors like Anthony Hopkins or Robert De Niro have been known to do on occasion. Whether or not the performances were 100% the fault of the actors doesn't change the likely hood that HotD was probably a career ender for most of the cast of unknowns.
Take that with a grain of salt. It's just my opinion which, as we've seen here, doesn't always match popular opinion.
I'm not really a good source for thoughts on comic book adaptations. I've read very few superhero comic books so I don't have any background on these films before I see them. Because of this I never have any expectations ahead of time and tend to be less disappointed in them than actual fans of the franchise.
Here's an example of what I mean--I was discussing Spider-Man 2 with Val, who is a big fan of superhero comics. Val has read hundreds of Spider-Man comic books and has a strong background with all the characters. I, on the other hand, have never read a Spider-Man comic. Not once. I pointed out that one of the things I didn't like about both Spider-Man films and had trouble getting past was the casting of Tobey Maguire. He isn't very handsome and he isn't heroic looking at all. I could almost hear Val laughing at me in her response. It turns out that those are the very characteristics that make Maguire a perfect choice for the role. Peter wasn't the cutest or most popular--he was just a college science geek trying to make the best of a strange situation. My own lack of background for the character was limiting my ability to suspend disbelief. With more background I would've enjoyed the fact that the filmmakers had carefully cast an appropriate Peter rather than using someone like Keanu Reeves as is typical Hollywood fashion.
This same lack of background goes the other way as well, as Xen pointed out about The Punisher. The original Punisher character from the comic book wasn't driven by rage and revenge--he was driven by sorrow and compassion! That's a fundamental difference, to say the least! I can understand why Punisher fans were disappointed in that aspect of the movie--it entirely changes the man behind the mask. I completely missed this because of my lack of background for the character.
So! With the understanding that I've never read a Hulk comic book, I'll tell you what I thought of The film. Please forgive me any missed references. I have no prior background with this character outside of the old television show. I should also mention that I don't see any of these films willingly. My roommate drags me to them on the grounds that I enjoy most movies, regardless of theme, once I see them--AvP being the most recent, Thunderbirds before that.
I was amazed by the Hulk--I thought it was a technical marvel! I was a little confused at first because the Hulk's name on tv was David, but that was the name of the Hulk's father in the film. I got past it easily enough, since it wasn't really important.
I liked the story--a modern, if somewhat limited, tragedy/romance. Even the silly superhero trappings were acceptable since I expected them already. I loved Jennifer Connelly's character Betty Ross and her torn heart over the accident, her father's distance toward her and his leaving her alone at the most traumatic moment of her life.
The Hulk character was remarkably different than I expected. He was much stronger than on tv and actually much more emotionally flexible as a computer animated model than he was as a live actor in make-up! Go figure. The Hulk truly gave me the feeling that he was unstoppable in the film. Much more so, in fact, than the tv version who would pass out from a bullet wound and then need to treat it when he turned human again. This Hulk was bullet proof, bomb proof, missile proof, needle proof. The most devastating force that mankind could muster couldn't even slow him down!
I just loved that! The Hulk had only one weakness, Betty Ross, his Achilles heel. All of the combined horror that mankind could unleash was nothing to him--yet a tiny, frail woman with hypnotic green eyes could calm the rage and soothe the animal inside. Only Betty could make him human again! Beauty and the Beast to the Nth power--it was sublime!
Ok--let me have it. What did I miss?  |
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Sun Aug 22, 2004 2:39 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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You didn't miss anything on the Hulk. That's exactly how it is an always has been in the comics as well. That's what makes Ang Lee's the Hulk a FANTASTIC adaptation of a incredibly limited character. I guess some people wanted to see more tanks being thrown around ... but I liked the focus on the character, such as it was.
The TV show for the Hulk was... well... like the TV series of Spider-Man...
Problem a lot of people had was that the actor who was planning Banner (Eric Banna) was too much of a 'pretty boy' to be Bruce Banner.
As for the name thing ... It's been a while since I read Hulk and I didn't read the first two hundred issues much... but I think his name is David Bruce Banner... but he goes by Bruce because he hated his father (who did in fact kill his mother and was in turn killed by Bruce).
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"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sun Aug 22, 2004 7:33 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Hehe, we love you, Gig.
As for AvP, I liked it. It wasn't the greatest movie I've ever seen, but it was rather entertaining. I was a bit mad when they killed off my favorite character in typical Alien-fashion though. 
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Sun Aug 22, 2004 8:02 pm |
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