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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
| do you think MW succeed as open ended CRPG? |
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Alright, i think most gamer here already finished MW with at least one character, or at least gone through most part of the game. Now, we all knew that one of the utmost important feature of Morrowind is its open ended world (huge, detailed & immersive landscape to explore), flexible to role-play character (mage with thieving skills, as good/evil/choatic/natural character), and let you do whatever you want (with lots of quest to choose, lots of interactivity with objects, and lots of things you could do such as reading, collecting, etc). HOW FAR do you think Morrowind had achieved this goals?
Personally, i think Bethesda has accomplished the objectives of detailed and immersive world IN SOME/CERTAIN DEGREE. In term of geographical/physical game world, yes, it's definitely huge, detail and immersive. The implementation of first person perspective is certainly helping the immersion factor, not to mention the realistic weather system. Compare to recent CRPGs, few could challenge it. NWN?, yes, the graphic is actually quite good - but immersion factor rather pale because it use the isometric camera angle (some gamer even complained about enemies that can't be seen on screen but is attacking his character). Dungeon Siege?, i have to admit that the 3D graphic is detail and nice looking, if not on par with MW. However, the almost same camera angle and endless mouse clicking without much story quickly take away the immersion factor. To me, the nearest challenge to MW should be Gothic - released last year. Well, compare to Mw, Gothic don't have gorgeous weather system, neither huge nor detailed physical game world. But what Gothic lacking in graphic immersiveness is compensated with immersive story, convincing characters A.I and interaction, and realistic lives of NPCs. In MW we have to admit that there's no day & night different of NPCs activities, they tend to be static and boring. There's some other complain on MW's weakness - somehow loose or unfocused main story, and quite many quest that ask you "go & bring me this or that" until at certain points you felt rather annoyed or irritated. But i also sense that this is unavoidable or a dilemma in game design: first, with huge game world and more than 3000 NPCs, the task to script each one as a unique NPCs is simply enormous task and impractical to do; second, with open ended world and many subplot (stories) or diversion, it's only natural that we difficult to get impression from main story or appear to be unfocused; third, with huge game world plus huge amount of quest, it become a huge burden to design a interesting or a complex quests, and thus at the end we got many "go & bring me this or that."
As on other goals such as flexible to role-play character and and let you do whatever you want, it seem Bethesda have a most admirable achievements. For example we play as mage, we also can get a thieving skills as long as we make an attempt to learn its. And surely you have lots of quest, maybe even too many to finish them all, thus you always have chance to choose which quest you want to do. You could even create your own quest; e.g discover the history and background of Vampire in Vvarldenfell or Morrowind, search for information about The Six House, collect all unique weapons available in Morrowind, etc.
P.S - Although MW's main objective is to create a open ended world, there's another important aspect in CRPGs but somehow Bethesda unable to implement it in more interesting ways - COMBAT. Probably this depend on on individual preference, but personally i found the combat is rather "shallow" and too repetitive with same combat moves. In other words, combat tend to be boring after a while. I prefer at least some special fighting moves such as feats in NWN. In Gothic, i found the fighting moves is interesting but unfortunately, the developer spoiled its with difficult keyboard control. 
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Wed Aug 07, 2002 5:25 pm |
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The Omen
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 489
Location: Greenville,SC |
Yes. I agree with you GG. 
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Wed Aug 07, 2002 6:03 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by The Omen
Yes. I agree with you GG.
What a deep, thoughtful response... Adds a lot to the conversation. 
@GG: Anyway, I must admit I haven't come close to finishing MW yet, nor have I played several of the games you referenced, but I'm curious about the numerous complaints about the dreaded "Fed-Ex" quests. I think there's different levels of the Fed-Ex stuff. For instance, the early Telvanni and Imperial Cult quests to fetch potion ingredients really don't add much. They don't force you to go to new and exciting places (since the ingredients can be found or purchased in lots of places), nor meet new and exciting people/critters. The infamous puzzle box quest forces the player to see a new (at that point) branch of the MW historical tree, as well as meeting a few new monster types (if you don't find it quickly  ).
Besides, what kind of quests would you prefer? Seems to me that most RPG quests usually boil down to "Fed-Ex" or "kill the baddie" anyway. I really don't see where that has to be bad- it's just how the devs decide to use them, and I don't see where the MW team did any worse than any other game available. I think they could have improved the Cult quests by asking you to supply "-ingredient- freshly harvested with a blessed silver dagger under the light of the next full moon". That would force you to get a blessed silver dagger (possibly a multi-step procedure), go where the stuff grows (after you find out just where that is), and do all that in a certain time frame. Of course, then some players would complain about overly-intricate, timed quests...
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Wed Aug 07, 2002 8:32 pm |
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The Omen
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 489
Location: Greenville,SC |
quote:
What a deep, thoughtful response... Adds a lot to the conversation.
Yes thank you. I thought so too.
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 4:17 am |
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Provis
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 872
Location: Middle of the Forest |
LOL @ dt and Omen
About not having a different script for night in MW.
Granted I haven't messed around in the MWEditor but how hard would it be to make one simple little script that made the NPC it was attached to wait a random amount of time, say between 20-90 minutes, then head to a building that is tagged as it's home, stand infront of the door and poof. Then have the game remake that character inside the house.
Now that I said it maybe it would be hard.  Morrowind having seperate inside and outside really hurts it when it comes to the illusion of "live" NPC's.
AHHH I'm being chased by a big mean daedra and I'm almost dead and have no potions left. Ohhh look the 3/4'ths of an inch thick, made of wood door, that will stop that big mean daedra.
Elder Scrolls 4 BETTER have a seamless world.
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"Yea, so what I didn't like Planescape: Torment, what are you gonna do about it?" - Provis |
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 5:30 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
... what kind of quests would you prefer? Seems to me that most RPG quests usually boil down to "Fed-Ex" or "kill the baddie" anyway. I really don't see where that has to be bad- it's just how the devs decide to use them, and I don't see where the MW team did any worse than any other game available. I think they could have improved the Cult quests by asking you to supply "-ingredient- freshly harvested with a blessed silver dagger under the light of the next full moon". That would force you to get a blessed silver dagger (possibly a multi-step procedure), go where the stuff grows (after you find out just where that is), and do all that in a certain time frame. Of course, then some players would complain about overly-intricate, timed quests...
IMO most quest available in MW is boring & too simple because of several things: first, lack of interesting story or subplot accompany the quest. I had played Some exciting CRPGs with in the past with exciting quest such Planescape Torment and Anachronox. Yes, in MW we got tons quest, but that's quantity - not quality; mostly the quest come with barebones story, for example go to collect a debt, go kill someone, or go to steal something. I remember when joined the Thieves Guild, i was asked to steal a diamond, bring it back, and that it's, nothing more, no interesting story.
second, there's not much surprise elements in quest. i remember when playing Gothic, there is one time i was asked to go outside the castle (Old Camp) to meet two miners resting near a campfire. There's no hints that it's atcually a trap or deception. When arriving at the campfire, it turned out that the two miner start taunting me for been a fool & i got kicked & killed. I was so pissed with the deception but at the same time i also admiring the cleverness of subplot and felt satisfying with the surprise.
third, most of the quest are short, and nothing to do with other or previous quests even in same guild. IMO several quest inside certain quild could be sewed together with a interesting story, suspense and surprise (related to one & two above). With that, We won't felt each quest are short (give no impression or memorable to player), independent or isolated.
finally, some of the quests tend to requiring you to search high and low in the huge world of MW (vampire's clan quests & several guild quests). Since MW's world are big, and the items or peoples (etc etc) we need to find is quite difficult, we usually end up spend so much time doing boring thing like walking; for example just walking from point A to point B & search carefully. This tend to make traveling really boring, frustrating and annoying. If there are interesting plot or quest twist in the process of doing that particular quest, then, the problems would be solved.
Heh , probably i'm too demanding, but i also think it's unavoidable after playing other CRPGs with clever and more interesting quest, or more twist and suspense. After all MW is such a great game, but unfortunately lack this kind of things. Once again the phrase "nothing's prefect" work out .
P.S - Off course, there're some quest is interesting or acceptable in MW, but its just not many enough.
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 7:04 am |
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Max Killen
Exalted Potentate
Joined: 04 Dec 2001
Posts: 1112
Location: Why not Minot? |
| Re: do you think MW succeed as open ended CRPG? |
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quote:
Originally posted by goofy goldfish
Alright, i think most gamer here already finished MW with at least one character, or at least gone through most part of the game.
Speak for yourself |
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 10:15 pm |
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The Omen
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 489
Location: Greenville,SC |
quote:
Speak for yourself
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Nothing is impossible... for me!!
The funniest site ever! |
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 10:19 pm |
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Vanderghast
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 16 Jul 2002
Posts: 103
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada |
I like Morrowind for it being an open ended game, but.....every character you take, once leveled up can pretty much do what any other class character can. So if you take a different type character, he will end up being similar in the end anyways.
I know i know.....ROLEPLAY YOUR CHARACTER! But even still, i thought this part of the game could have been better.
I suppose i can use some different plug-ins for more spice as well.
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Thu Aug 08, 2002 10:24 pm |
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Shifter
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 303
Location: Morrowind |
I am just now starting over and never eventouched the main quest..so I will get back to youin a few years.
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Shifter |
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Fri Aug 09, 2002 12:12 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by goofy goldfish
second, there's not much surprise elements in quest. i remember when playing Gothic, there is one time i was asked to go outside the castle (Old Camp) to meet two miners resting near a campfire. There's no hints that it's atcually a trap or deception. When arriving at the campfire, it turned out that the two miner start taunting me for been a fool & i got kicked & killed. I was so pissed with the deception but at the same time i also admiring the cleverness of subplot and felt satisfying with the surprise.
Gothic is one of the biggies you mentioned that I haven't played yet. I tried the demo a while back and (imagine this) couldn't make heads or tails of the control scheme. Since I've found out here that everyone else hated the controls and still went bananas for the game, I'll probably pick it up after I burn out on Morrowind. I'm really interested in seeing the "living world" and features like your example.
quote:
Originally posted by goofy goldfish
third, most of the quest are short, and nothing to do with other or previous quests even in same guild. IMO several quest inside certain quild could be sewed together with a interesting story, suspense and surprise (related to one & two above). With that, We won't felt each quest are short (give no impression or memorable to player), independent or isolated.
I agree with this. Like the example I gave, I think that quests within quests are far more interesting than a simple "Fed-Ex". I think the reason that we don't see more of these is the difficulty in programming them so they don't break. If the player (whom you've given free run of the world ) stumbles into the middle of the quest, it would be very challenging to direct him back to the beginning, or make sure he doesn't lose something he'll need once he finds the beginning.
quote:
Originally posted by goofy goldfish
Heh , probably i'm too demanding, but i also think it's unavoidable after playing other CRPGs with clever and more interesting quest, or more twist and suspense. After all MW is such a great game, but unfortunately lack this kind of things. Once again the phrase "nothing's prefect" work out
I guess that's my question. Are there really that many RPGs out there that are "revolutionary" with their quests? Even in Planescape, which I think was probably the most "different" approach I've seen, most of the quests boiled down to single-step "fetch" or "kill" exercises.
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Fri Aug 09, 2002 2:17 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
quote:
Originally posted by Vanderghast
I like Morrowind for it being an open ended game, but.....every character you take, once leveled up can pretty much do what any other class character can...
That's unavoidable. I think the situation has something to do with dilemma in leveling method; on one hand it provide a open ended gameplay or without much restriction between classes (especially high level characters), but on other hand this kind element somehow hurting the gameplay or becoming negative element once you ending up with high level characters. Another example in different case (but with quite similar situation) is about D&D Third Edition rules (used in NWN) with Second Edition rules (BG1/IWD1). I'm not very familiar with D&D stuff, but i had read some complains from other gamer that the implementation of new rules in NWN somehow given too much freedom to learn skills for certain class or races - as compare to much restricted characters advancements under Second Edition rules. In other words, without much restriction it would hurt the gameplay to certain degree, although in other way around we could enjoy the freedom or openess of learning skills & such. How ironic.
@dteowner:
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
.....Are there really that many RPGs out there that are "revolutionary" with their quests? Even in Planescape, which I think was probably the most "different" approach I've seen, most of the quests boiled down to single-step "fetch" or "kill" exercises...
Nay, there's not much "revolutionary" CRPGs out there. In fact, i won't use the word "revolutionary," it's just too dramatic or an "overkill" to described the available CRPGs today or past years  . I only mean there's certain CRPGs which are good in certain aspects that was not available/not good in MW.
@Shifter
quote:
Originally posted by Shifter
.....I am just now starting over and never eventouched the main quest..so I will get back to youin a few years....
 Err...are you okay Shifter?, yesterday somehow your posting seem to been "out of control" or "flying everywhere" as you're intoxicated or something...
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Fri Aug 09, 2002 6:23 am |
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Spawnster
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 105
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imho, i feel that MW succeeds to a certain extent in terms of open-endedness. it's huge, immense and out-of-this-world. u hv tons of quest, tons of weapons, tons of npc, tons of locations etc.
however in terms of immersiveness - it loses out to Gothic. go figure.
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Fri Aug 09, 2002 10:11 am |
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Striz
Village Leader
Joined: 22 Apr 2002
Posts: 93
Location: Atlanta Georgia |
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by goofy goldfish
second, there's not much surprise elements in quest. i remember when playing Gothic, there is one time i was asked to go outside the castle (Old Camp) to meet two miners resting near a campfire. There's no hints that it's atcually a trap or deception. When arriving at the campfire, it turned out that the two miner start taunting me for been a fool & i got kicked & killed. I was so pissed with the deception but at the same time i also admiring the cleverness of subplot and felt satisfying with the surprise.
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Gothic is one of the biggies you mentioned that I haven't played yet. I tried the demo a while back and (imagine this) couldn't make heads or tails of the control scheme. Since I've found out here that everyone else hated the controls and still went bananas for the game, I'll probably pick it up after I burn out on Morrowind. I'm really interested in seeing the "living world" and features like your example.
I am a major fan of gothic, and i had mastered gothics controls on my first day of playing.. its a simple task of defining your own keys.. its not that hard.. and to those of you who complain about gothic combat being hard, it is infact extremely easy, with the way gothic designed combat controls you dont have to start running in the direction you want to swing, take for example trying to make a horizontal slice in MW you have to start strafing left or right, and typically that pisses me off because i lose my aim on my target, with gothic you can just stand still, hold attack, and press strafe right and he will swing right, strafe left and he will strafe left, strafe foward and he slices right infront of him like an executioner, then to finish another person off you simply walk up to them unconcious and press attack and foward and he stabs the sword in their stomach, then does a circle around them twisting the sword deeper through them, i personally am annoyed with combat controls in MW, it would be nice if backstab was one hit kill on your opponent, especially if he is wearing nothing but clothing and he is a human.. no matter how strong you are, if you have a sword jam through your back and out your chest, chances are you arent going to be fighting very long |
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Thu Aug 22, 2002 5:43 am |
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