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Early Q
Village Dweller
Joined: 08 Jul 2002
Posts: 24
Location: United Kingdom |
You don't need levelling in a game.
Just shallow MMORPGs need levelling, as they require the frequent satisfaction of levelling to keep the players playing.
On RPGs they aren't a nescessity, and those few who said they couldn't get hooked on BG because of the levelling are missing out on a great game for nothing.
Concentrating on character development is stupid and completely defies the point of SP RPGs.
WHy are you even purchasing SP RPGs if you sole goal is to level, if that is the case, save yourself trouble (not money certainly) and buy Everquest.
I'm not bashing levelling, I like it. But if you say, I'll camp in the Flesh Golem cave to level my archers up, that is destroying smooth flow of the game, and the inevitable happens, you get bored, as battles become ludicrously easy.
Personally I think levelling was handled gracefully with the D&D system in Baldur's Gate, roll fanboy accusations  .
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O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
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Sat Aug 10, 2002 7:45 pm |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
I don't think RPGs need leveling at all. I like to see my character improve, though, that's what makes a RPG different from other types of games. I think it would be fine if a game never made a reference to your level at all.
As long as harder monsters were introduced now and again to balance the game then it would be fine! I think I would be perfectly happy not knowing what level my character was as long as the old monsters consistantly became easier and easier. The challenge would be in fighting the new more difficult monsters.
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''Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always think that the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied. Look at me: I design coastlines. I got an award for Norway.''--Slartibartfast |
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Sun Aug 11, 2002 2:19 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Early Q
On RPGs they aren't a nescessity, and those few who said they couldn't get hooked on BG because of the levelling are missing out on a great game for nothing.
Concentrating on character development is stupid and completely defies the point of SP RPGs.
OK, what exactly is the point of SP RPGs then? If you claim it is story, I agree 100% and refer you to my earlier post about the relation of story and character development. If it's something else entirely, pray tell!
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RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sun Aug 11, 2002 3:32 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
quote:
Originally posted by Early Q
On RPGs they aren't a nescessity, and those few who said they couldn't get hooked on BG because of the levelling are missing out on a great game for nothing.
Concentrating on character development is stupid and completely defies the point of SP RPGs.
OK, what exactly is the point of SP RPGs then? If you claim it is story, I agree 100% and refer you to my earlier post about the relation of story and character development. If it's something else entirely, pray tell!
Well, development of your character(s), is not the only thing CRPG's are about, but it's still an enjoying and necessary part in most CRPG's. BG2 would completly loose it's appeal if your characters didn't develop, even though it's only happening with the poor 2nd AD&D rules! BG2's heavy part on battles, needs a development for the characters to get some divesity in the endless battles.
If development of characters was only based on finding better equipment and weapon, it may still be interesting, but developing new or better skills, can open up many new strategies that favors for the diversity and mayby replayability of a game.
The new Pool of Radiance game is a good example that, it's not only a interesting character development system that makes a good games, it also needs story, visual appealing enviroments/atmosphere, intuitive interaction, and other things. POR failed most of the ladder things.
BG did not please me very long, not only because of it's meagre AD&D system, but also for it's poor story and many boring areas, where it often was a hard time to see where the walls/bushes started and where the ground ends!
BG2 did make an overall better job than BG1, but BG2 did loose it's appeal after 50-60 hours of gameplay, and you still needed 30-40 hours to finish the game. After 50-60 hours your characters had reached the level limit, and all your interesting different characters had played out their small stories, and the main plot was just about a evil magician who escapes from one realm to another, with you following his tale. The battles get very monotonous: Cast protection spells, cast remove protection spells on the enemies while your melee fighters hits the protection shields without any result until at the end of the battle when the enemies loose the different magic shields!
I guees a CRPG without development of the character(s), would feel more like an adventure game. I do like adventure games, but by lacking of character development, they need to beef up other aspects like story, interaction with NPC's and other things. Sadly to say "Adventure" games isn't the most popular genre for developers now a days. The "audience" did choose the popular games like "Diablo 2" and "Dungeon siege", and they are certainly build up around character development!
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Mon Aug 12, 2002 3:17 pm |
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Mattias Kreku
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 387
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I don't know about levels and such, but the best system I've seen was in the game called Wasteland. When you start the game you're a footsoldier in a futuristic army (called Desert Rangers) and you have a very low rank. Your character has a lot of stats (that can be rerolled over and over when you create it) and a lot of skills (which you choose when you create the character). But he doesn't have (visible) experience or levels. So what happens is, you run around in the world, fight monsters, climb hills, swim rivers and once in a while when you're using a skill you'll learn something new and the skill will raise. Also, in some towns there are libraries/universities where you can pay ridiculous amounts of intelligence points to practice your skills. The rangers come equipped with a radio which they can use every now and then to report back to headquarters and the officers will decide if you've done enough to earn a new military title or not. If you've earned a new one you'll be given 2 hp (!) and 2 stat points that you can place on any stat of your choice.
This system is entirely free. You can actually complete the game without ever having to radio back to base! That means you can complete this game as "level one" if you wish. Or, you can fight lots and lots of mutants, solve lots and lots of problems and THEN radio in and gain 20 ranks at once. It's all up to you. The thing is, using the radio isn't a big deal. Getting those 2 hp/2 prac points doesn't change your life. It's a nice reward every once in a while, but the emphasis lies on your skills. You have to actually use your skills a lot to become a good player in Wasteland. I prefer this system before any other xp/level system I've ever seen. |
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Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:49 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@Mattias K - This sounds like a very cool game. Where can one obtain it?
Isn't this game what Fallout was going to be, but then there was a change in plans half way through, and the team split ... or something like that? It was quite some time ago (at least since Fallout, so 4 years min) that I read about it, and I was not really following it that closely.
PS - You are 100% correct about Russian participation in WW2. 70% of the German army was tied up in Russia in 1944, not to mention the HUGE suck of resouces that war engendered. In addition it should be mentioned that of ALL the allies to face the Germans prior to 1943 .... oh drat, this is not the place for this. Suffice it to say, the Soviet army of the 40s deserves MUCH more credit than it gets 
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Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:35 pm |
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Mattias Kreku
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Jun 2002
Posts: 387
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quote:
Originally posted by Lintra
@Mattias K - This sounds like a very cool game. Where can one obtain it?
Try here: Wasteland
Don't forget to download the paragraph book too! It's very well written and you will need it within the game (passwords and such). |
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Mon Aug 12, 2002 11:32 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
@ Mattius - Thanks! I should've thought of HomeOfTheUnderdogs. I like them  I'll try this later this week (I hope {crosses fingers}).
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Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:00 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Anyone ever played Quest for Glory?
That system had no levels, when you used a skill long enough that skilled was raised, but there were no levels.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:33 pm |
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Kado
Head Merchant
Joined: 18 Jun 2002
Posts: 61
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I really like level based advancement for CRPG's but that is probably because I am a D&D nut. Smiting those evil baddies and then becoming stronger, faster, and more skillfull is fun. The only thing that I really don't like is having massive HP at the end of a game. AC/Saving Throws make much more sense to me. I view gaining a level as becoming more skillfull in avoiding attacks...dodging that dragon's breath...not having massive HP to that same dragon's breath only makes you sweat.
Dragon's Breath: 10-60 damage
Lvl1: 10 HP - OUCH
Lvl15: 150 HP - *sigh*
As much as I like level systems I think skill systems are alot more fun. They adhere more to that "skill-not-HP" idea I have set in my mind. I don't like buying skills with experience! Swinging your sword to gain EXP and then being able to spend it on your magic skill is just plain stupid. There shouldn't be a system to "buy" skills with built up EXP...hell, there shouldn't even be EXP. My ideal game would give you many skills...a basic rating in each of them and then let you loose (as far as character development goes) to do as you wish. Want to hit harder with your longsword? Then go and practice it! Paying for training at the local fighter's guild is fine too.
I guess what I'm saying is that RPG's don't need level based advancement.
:::::On the side:::::
:::Call me crazy, but I like Ad&D2e better than D&D3e any day. AD&D just feels better. No clue why. Then people start to gripe about there not being any skills. Hmmmm...I just make players make a roll (d20+1/2 lvl)against the stat that I choose. If they roll their stat or lower they succeed. For harder things I say they must beat their stat by so many points. I'm starting to ramble now.
Is there anyone else out there who likes AD&D2e better than D&D3e???
(I mean better...not "each has their strong points"  )
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Current Games: PS:T
Unreal 2: The Disappointment |
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Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:56 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Anyone ever played Quest for Glory?
That system had no levels, when you used a skill long enough that skilled was raised, but there were no levels.
I remember it quite well. I enjoyed not having to worry about getting to the next experience level. If I wanted to be better at something, then I would practice that ability. Hmm... maybe I'll install QG5 again and take a walk down memory lane.
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Wed Aug 14, 2002 6:02 am |
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