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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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| Gothic2+NOTR Best RPG ever done, magic system not that good |
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I'm not far to finish the game and already a little nostalgic/sad about it. 
For me no doubt globaly, Gothic 2 + NOTR is the best RPG I ever played and I played quite a lot since a long long time. There's no doubt about it and I think that the player who disagree just never played it or is just a blind sleeper slave of console/MMORPG gods. 
But if I look at some particular features as the character building, the fighting system or the magic system, I don't feel fully satisfied.
In fact, once you get used to it, the sword fighting system is good in 1v1 even if it could be improved a bit. It shines with small team agaisn't few or many. And it is eventually good too in 1v2 or 2v1 fights. Finally it works quite well with limited summon use.
Also for character building, NOTR probably bring more disaventadge than adventadge. For example there's something wrong in LP cost rising, the rise seems too high and other way to rise attributes should not be included in the computing. On another way that was great to be able to develop later in the game some non magic skills even if that's not advised.
But the magic system and magic use in fights is far to have the quality reach in many RPG.
1 - Spell diversity
Don't throw me the number of spells in the face, many are just useless or mostly copy of other. Few example :
- Where are spell to slowdown, single or group?
- Where are area spell that has no effect on team members?
- Where are speed spell on other and group?
- Where are inability spell, like disable attack but not movement, or sleep group that stop if you attack a slepper?
- Where are invsible/sneak spells?
- Where are protection spell, ac rising, number of hit protection, number of damage protection?
- Where are special protectin spells, against some particular effects?
- Where are team protection spells?
- Where are healing oher/group spells?
- Where are summon that don't attack team member nor neutral?
- Where are low range teleportation, jump or fly spells?
- And so on and so on.
I don't say that all effetcs should be available, but at least the diversity should be much better.
2 - Magic in fights
Magic use during fights for single char play is a difficult subject. Team match much better the problem and it's hard to get a balance with non magic characters. But there it's not good:
- Many useless spells.
- Many spells useless once in melee.
- High end spells that close a fight in 2 click.
- Mana allowing (even at 300) just to cast a few spell.
- Mana restore not fun at all by open inventory and slow clicks in it, or that just disbalance with quickey.
- Flee tactics being too efficient when compared to other.
- Speed potion use too easy/efficient.
- And so on, and so on.
3 - Magic out of fights
It is mostly non existent, there's eventually sleep. That's a difficult subject but some games succeed to make magic exist not only in fights and without to disbalance the game.
I admit, I haven't see all subtilities, but globaly there are plenty design weakness of the magic use in fights. A weakness could be too much power as high end spells closing fights in 2 click or ability to summon waves and waves of monsters (thanks I had that but well I prefer not and have global design allowing me more subtle and interesting fights agaisnt big bosses like the ice dragon).
Ha well globaly despite complain I could have, NOTR is anyway the best RPG I ever played even with a mage character.  |
Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:03 pm |
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Paul999999
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 302
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Gothic 1 is still better it would have been better if they started the addon just on the addon places and not doing everything over again to get there.
The games difficulity is retarded why would the developers make it so hard its not hard its just retarded Basicly anything can kill you in one hit i wonder what goes threw there minds thinking this is fun? Not only can we die in a few hits but the skills cost more too if they make Gothic 3 this retardly boring frustrating then it will ruin it they have to make it fun.
Seriously i was saving and loading a hundred times i just become a novice mercenary and i just deleted it (my second time) and not going back.
My weapons were useless the only way i was actually killing people were using Spell Scrolls. |
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Sun Dec 25, 2005 10:56 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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Well it's not exactely the subject I wanted to open with this thread but well.
I'm not sure to have understand fully your post.
Point 1 : You think that with NOTR they change and mix it to Gothic 2 instead of doing an addon that follow Gothic 2 and you don't like that.
My feeling on this : I haven't played Gothic 2 but I totally enjoyed the depth and freedom of Gothic 2 + NOTR. The numerous additional help you can get is just fun, the ability to mix chapter 1 + Chapter 2 to NOTR part is just cool to manage yourself the difficulty.
Point 2 : Difficulty is too tough in NOTR.
My feeling on this : I also have this feeling until level 10/12 but there's two point:
- You don't have to kill everything you met and once you understand that then the difficulty drop down a lot.
- Also too tough monsters is the way the game is designed to block the are to the player and keep them for lalter in the game. That point involve many sudden death in the begining because you haven't enough life to flee with efficiency.
Point 3 : You feel sword fighting useless and only magic allowed you killing beast.
My feeling on this : I played mage and did most of my kills by the sword so well at least until late in the game, let say circle 4. Well few suggestions:
- A first point is to get better protection that's major. This include to save money to buy amulet/rings if you can't find them soon.
- Favorize protection agaisnt sword, for long time it will be the best against most foes.
- As protection is major, jumping in guild soon is a better choice. Quote that unlike in Gothic 2 that doesn't suddenly change the cost of your LP.
- Use 2H on some monsters even with lower skill in 2H. That will make some fights much more easy.
- Rise one close-figth range ability to 30% as fast than possible, it will improve significantly your fighting. Enventually keep 60% to later for a later major boost.
- If you don't plan a char like an archery specialist or a mage, think to choose 2H. The close range fighting is just more easy with 2H once you learn the technic and have the range in the eyes.
- For sword characters, strength is certainly a good investissement soon in the game to use better weapon and hit harder.
- Learn to use a bit parry or even short backward that improve a lot your efficiency.
- Don't miss any oportunity to fight with an help and then to learn use small run/movements for a major increase in you fighting efficiency.
- Particularely against more than one foe, learn move a little and select/unselect the oponent during fight, that's important to hit the nearest one and disturb their attacks.
- For some really and few too tough fights, go on, stop stocking those scrolls and use some of them to lower the difficulty of those few fights.
- Get some patience and don't jump into a pack of monsters too tough for you, isolate them is just smart and can be fun.
- Think of sneaking path to avoid some too tough fight and keep them for a bit later.
- The fight doesn't evolve as you planed and is going wrong, then don't hesitate flee, it's efficient with most monsters, jumping, obstacles or even sheeps could help you to achieve it. |
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Sun Dec 25, 2005 11:49 pm |
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Uriziel
Grand Mage
Joined: 17 May 2002
Posts: 735
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quote:
Originally posted by Paul999999
The games difficulity is retarded why would the developers make it so hard its not hard its just retarded Basicly anything can kill you in one hit i wonder what goes threw there minds thinking this is fun?
I have read many of your posts and tried to point you in the right direction to get through G2 and NOTR and now i will offer my last advice.......find another game. You don't have the patience to properly develop a character, you don't consider developing a plan of attack.....not just for one fight, but for the whole game. G2 is not hard even for the lamest gamer. NOTR is for people that have the ability to THINK, PLAN, and EXECUTE. You will NEVER be UBER character in NOTR....mage is extremely EXTREMELY strong at the end of the game, but it takes alot of planning and suffering to get there. To me that is the fun part. You want instant gratification and the ability to slap anyone or thing down 2 minutes into the game......that is NOT Gothic series.
I see SOOO many people making the game even harder than it should be, but that is the beauty of Gothic. The game does not hold your hand and guide you to areas you can easily beat. It lets you get in DEEP without knowing. That is how you learn. You learn to observe the situation, look for places that afford a better attack stratedgy, learn what is most efficient to get a quest done, etc.
You want a cake walk, I want a challenge. NOTR was made for me, Bambi's Great Adventure was made for you.......to each his own 
_________________
Chris: Dad, what's the blow-hole for?
Peter: I'll tell you what it's not for, son. And when I do, you'll understand why I can never go back to Sea World. |
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Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:00 am |
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Paul999999
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 302
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Yeah yeah... simply put the games difficulity ruins the game and doesnt make it fun if you're one of those over weight geeks who think there hardcore by sitting there all day shooting arrows all day or think its fun slashing an enime two times running away and repeat for 2 hours until you kill them then good for you super man you're hardcore have a free mcdonalds meal on me.
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Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:13 am |
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bjon045
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234
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quote:
Originally posted by Uriziel
You want a cake walk, I want a challenge. NOTR was made for me, Bambi's Great Adventure was made for you.......to each his own
Uriziel, while I agree with your points I don't agree with you insulting his/her intelligence by suggesting he/she play "Bambi's Great Adventure". Try to be more civilised. |
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Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:14 am |
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Paul999999
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 302
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quote:
Originally posted by bjon045
quote:
Originally posted by Uriziel
You want a cake walk, I want a challenge. NOTR was made for me, Bambi's Great Adventure was made for you.......to each his own
Uriziel, while I agree with your points I don't agree with you insulting his/her intelligence by suggesting he/she play "Bambi's Great Adventure". Try to be more civilised.
Well over weight people such as him who love mcdonalds with 4 year old dinosaur mentalities think there character in there games they play are them and think there "hardcore" but when the game is off then its just back to mcdonalds and pimples |
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Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:19 am |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Paul999999
Yeah yeah... simply put the games difficulity ruins the game and doesnt make it fun if you're one of those over weight geeks who think there hardcore by sitting there all day shooting arrows all day or think its fun slashing an enime two times running away and repeat for 2 hours until you kill them then good for you super man .....
What Uzriel is saying is that you AVOID such an encounter until you have a fighting chance to take down this enemy.
Of course its not fun to shoot arrows in one place for 2 hours or to slash at an enemy all day. But NOTR never forces you do this AT ALL. There is always some foe that you can take on at your current level.
Honestly, I don't think NOTR crosses the line such that the game is no longer "fun". If I did, *I* wouldn't play it.
It is certainly challenging, but then so was Gothic 2 in the early stages.
So I really don't understand how you can complain if you already finsihed regular Gothic 2 (assuming you didn't cheat). You should know what the deal is with Gothic .
You are a weakilng early on in that game and have to pick and choose which encounters to engage.
It is no different in NOTR, so I really don't understand where all your complaining is coming from.
Sure the strength requirements for some weapons have increased, but then there are tons of new weapons to find at lower levels that can give you a jump start.
For example, did you talk to Cavalorn and get his Wolf Knife? It only requires 10 strength but does 30 damage and boosts your 1 handed skill by 5 points.
I really don't think you've given the game enough of a chance.
_________________
All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:40 am |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
All in all, magic in Gothic is incredibly powerful if you use it in the right way. The reason for the low number of spell effects is so that there will in fact be variety between classes - in many games a mage can run fast, use invisibility, stun his opponents, fly, breath underwater, shapechange, slow his enemies, fear his enemies, boost his allies, heal his allies, buff himself, heal himself, and do a crapload of damage to everyone.
While this might be fun, it removes the point of other classes. Ever played a high end fight in Neverwinter Nights? Why, oh why, would anyone ever play anything but a spellcaster? They can do it ALL in the end(a 40 warrior VS a 40 sorcerer for instance isn't even fun).
Basically, spells in Gothic consist of shapechange(only scrolls), heal, damage and summoning. The most powerful being AoE damage like Ring of Death/Rain of Fire, and the summoning spell Summon Demon. Spells like these are so powerful they're almost powerful enough to upset the entire game balance(a few Demons can kill the final boss).
If you add slowing effects, invisibility, flying, teleportation etc, you would have to remove something as well, and above all - you would have to lower the damage of the current spells. Current spells can kill anything in 1-2 hits(Breath of Death, Ring of Death, Rain of Fire), so adding even more would really upset the balance.
It all comes down to the free character development in Gothic. There is nothing that keeps you from learning swords while being a magician, so you could end up being a sword-wielding mage with flying, teleportation, healing, invisibility and area effect spells. So all in all, you now have a more "general path" than in most games, because you never truly become a class with specific skills.
Just my two cents. 
Also, it is quite do-able to go through Gothic 1-2 using nothing but magic. It is hard at the start, and you have to resort to scrolls, but it has been done. |
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Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:51 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Play nice, you two (Paul and Uriziel).
_________________
Jaz |
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Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:14 am |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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Maylander: Thanks for coming back to the original subject of this thread. About the magic in Gothic 2 + NOTR, I see your points. I agree but only partially. I feel it's not that "simple". Keep it hot, I try answer asap. I need read and read again your post to be sure to really understand everything.
Uziriel: Well where Paul seems right to me, is that Gothic should have a difficulty level setting (with both harder settings and easier settings). Then even if I fully agree with you that crash everything arround isn't the best thing to do, why not let player who want to, set lower difficulty and play the game as they want?
Paul :
- Stop thinking the game is hard, myself I just hate games too hard and when I felt upon such a game or more generaly an addon, I would crash heads of designers and players/testers who push them do so. NOTR is tough but not that hard. Did you really finished the Baldurs Gate 2 addon? There you had few dam tough fights.
- Stop thinking that this game is just a beat'em all. You have to talk to people and read/listen what they say. You must not kill everything arround. The game controls need some learning but not more than many console games.
- At the end if you don't like the game, stop play it. Myself when a game bore me, even if it's the blobkbuster of all the blockbucters, I stop play it that's all and that's so easy and stop loosing time to say here the game is a crap, you just loose your time. |
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Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:16 pm |
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Gotit
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 27 Nov 2005
Posts: 183
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To answer you Maylander :
Fun is the problem not difficulty:
Difficulty isn't the problem I have with magic in Gothic but fun. I am playing a lot with swords with my mage just because I find it much more the fun than by using magic only. Well perhaps I haven't found the right tactics to have fun with magic only in fights.
You explain that more spell means too powerfull class:
I understand but I disagree. Sure the solution isn't just to throw in the game new spells and keep everything else as it is. But common, what are magic tactics in Gothic? Long range, flee or run based otherwise it's summoning.
Some changes suggestions to increase fun of magic fighting:
- In contact you don't move when you cast and then you get hit much more harder than if you are attacking with sword. That's a problem limiting magic use to lang-range and run/flee. There are many solutions to this, but some should be available in order to improve tactics available.
- If you cast a spell attack in close combat and you are hit you not only don't cast it but lost the mana which is so limited. Again nothing against that but long-range/run/flee. The result is the reduced number of tactics with magic fighting.
- You have dam powerfull area spell and unlimited summon, wrong choice in both cases, and you can hardly mix them really appart by preparing a fight, again wrong choice. Instead limited summon and less powerfull area spell with diversified effects and some weaker with no effects on summon/team that would rise up tactics and fun.
- Gothic tends to reduce number of spell by low mana/high mana cost. The counter ballance is strong power. Again wrong choice that limits a lot the action.
About high end fight in Neverwinter and mage class stuff:
I don't understand what you mean. If it's pvp, well who care about class balance but MMORPG? I don't see your point about Neverwinter and mage thing.
About class freedom:
You quote Neverwinter but in my point of view it's old style class that became tiedous. The problem of these classes is that mostly everything is decided at character creation, after you just follow the writen path and pick up items. The opposite is Morrowind, and it's the only game I know where you can do what you mention as possible in many other games, ie everything. I don't feel Morrowind system that great (even if it's a great game) because it's up to the point that classes lost its meaning. A balance between the two has to be find, Gothic is trying a bit. Among recent games, one far to be as good globaly but it shows interesting options in a medium path between character true building, and true classes, it's Dungeon Lords.
Few comments on some special magic effects:
- Yes probably not many games can support flying, Morrowind succeed but well that could be a wrong example. But there are many other diversity to bring to magic in Gothic even without fly.
- Invisibility isn't as tough, just give true sneaking to some other classes, and all players will want play them and not mage. Also invisibility can have many many limitations.
- Teleport, I mentionned limited teleport. Can be easily restricted by many ways, as time reload, reduced distance, time to be ready, and so on. And be used anyway to allow different tactics nothing overpowerful.
- Area effect spell, there are some in Gothic, they just kill, that's what I complain. Ha well ok there's one which freeze. But much more diversity could be added and nothing overpowerfull and all less powerfull than the current area spells. |
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Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:33 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Response to Gotit:
Fun is the problem not difficulty:
I pretty much use the same tactics with a mage as a ranged class - fire and flee. I use this with anything but melee characters in pretty much all games.
You explain that more spell means too powerfull class:
I use long range up till the point where I get Rain of Fire. After that I never use anything but Summon Demon against bosses and Rain of Fire against everything else. I agree that this is a bit tedious at times, but firing a bow or swinging a sword isn't any less tedious.
Some changes suggestions to increase fun of magic fighting:
Preparing for fights is vital in Gothic. You need to plan ahead, or you will lose regardless of which guild you play. I don't see a problem with that, it simply forces the player to be a bit more tactical in their decisions. I do agree that unlimited summoning and incredibly powerful area effect spells may be too powerful, and something could be done in order to balance things out a bit.
About high end fight in Neverwinter and mage class stuff:
The point here is that when you do a PvP fight in Neverwinter Nights, everybody plays Sorcerer or Wizard. Nobody EVER plays anything else online, because Wizards and Sorcerers will win against anyone else(timestop + 3-4 lower resistance spells + another timestop + 3-4 instant death spells will kill anything really).
About class freedom:
Morrowind had the problem I'm talking about - you can do everything no matter what. In Gothic you still have to stay a bit on your guilds' path, but can still choose to learn other skills. With too many protection spells, that would turn mages into Battle Mages with incredibly powerful skills(imagine having Stoneskin, Teleport, Speed Increase and Stun on someone with a Master Sword, 100 dexterity and 80%+ in 1h combat?). The best example I can think of that had this is the RPG Fable - your character grew so powerful in the end as a caster/fighter hybrid that the final boss was a walk in the park.
Few comments on some special magic effects:
-Flying: It works in a few games, like Might and Magic. In Gothic it would lead to getting access to areas you're not supposed to have access to early on, and being able to loot items lying about that you shouldn't normally be able to get for a long time. It's not such a big problem in NotR as the requirement for weapons has gone up, but in the original the max strength was 100, and the LP cost was 1 all the way there, so you could wield any weapon in the game at lvl 10. It was just hard to get them.
- Invisibility: Same reason as above. Complete invisibility would lead to being able to avoid too much, like in World of Warcraft. Rogues/Druids both have stealth there, and can do "stealth runs" to get items easier than any other classes as they can take down bosses and not the creatures before the bosses. Too many games can be "skipped" by using invisibility/stealth.
- Teleport: Your suggestion is good, but there is one problem - in Gothic there is no such thing as cooldowns. You are not limited in the amount of magic you can cast except by mana, so you would have to rearrange/rebalance the entire magic system to add cooldowns/limits to spells.
- Area effect spells are incredibly powerful in Gothic, but only have 2 effects: Freeze and Damage. I get a feeling people don't use freezing effects enough, because Ice Block(the single target freeze spell) and Ring of Ice will pretty much give the effect you want - you can freeze incoming targets, move back, and fire away again. I can't think of too many other effects you could add in the game really, maybe area effect fear to make them run away from you? Might be a bit overpowered. There aren't any real "poison"(spells that slowly damage opponents over time) spells either, so maybe those could be added.
The magic system is bit redone in G3 though, so it will be interested to see what they add. |
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Mon Dec 26, 2005 8:34 pm |
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Uriziel
Grand Mage
Joined: 17 May 2002
Posts: 735
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quote:
Originally posted by Gotit
Maylander:
Uziriel: Well where Paul seems right to me, is that Gothic should have a difficulty level setting (with both harder settings and easier settings). Then even if I fully agree with you that crash everything arround isn't the best thing to do, why not let player who want to, set lower difficulty and play the game as they want?
There IS a difficulty changer........ http://www.rpgdot.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=371006&highlight=customizer#371006
_________________
Chris: Dad, what's the blow-hole for?
Peter: I'll tell you what it's not for, son. And when I do, you'll understand why I can never go back to Sea World. |
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Tue Dec 27, 2005 9:32 am |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
I never even knew about such a mod, quite useful for people who play NotR without too much experience in Gothic.
Also a member from PB posted in that thread. |
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Tue Dec 27, 2005 1:43 pm |
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