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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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| Life After Combat Editorial |
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This is the official forum thread for my editorial on the evolution of CRPGs over the past twenty years, and especially the changing nature of combat in these games.
I'm here to answer questions, comments, concerns, criticisms and more importantly to read about everyone else's point of view on the matter. So fire away. 
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"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 12:27 pm |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
If you haven't read it yet, here is the link to it:
Is there a game after combat?
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:02 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
EverythingXen,
this is really nice editorial.
I agree especially with you points about games that offer different way of gameplay. I mean I really like when you can choose if you want to kill all or do only "necessary" killing. And I think it is very nice when developers includes some "not for battle" skills in their RPGs. I mean some more skills then those that influance how much you will pay for something.
You named it, Arcanum was one of them (well its skill system was little bit too chaotic for me, but very nice). There were places where you had several possibilities
- you could kill someone to get a key
- you could persuede him to give it to you
- you had to kill him because you had not enough skills to persuede him with speaking.
I mean this is how it should be in "complex" RPGs (of course there is no need to include such skills into very action RPG).
But let me say this: I really like fighting and in most cases I choose "way of fight". |
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:10 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
EX, nicely done.
I like to fight sometimes, but most of the time I'd rather avoid it, and the unavoidable battles in Deus Ex were IMO a major let-down. Leave it to the player to select a certain style of play.
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Jaz |
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:16 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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CRPGs are about immersion. You're trying to immerse yourself in another world for a brief amount of time. I believe that a detailed (if not complicated) story helps the suspension of disbelief needed to enjoy a piece of fantasy or science fiction.
Even combat heavy games should have a nice strong backstory. I liked Diablo 2 because I liked the story. That being said, I completed it once (singleplayer... on battlenet I probably completed it 20 times or more) and shelved it because there was no way to change the story.
I was playing Ultima 7 the other night using Exult. Five hours into the game I realized that I'd gotten into 3 fights. That's immersion. However, after I realized I'd gotten into 3 fights in 5 hours I also realized that I would prefer a little more 'action'. But as the game unfolds, I recall, there is more... so that's fine.
Dungeon Siege had such potential! A better scriptwriter, more complex NPC interactions, and a few choices to make in the game and we would have had a game that appealed to a broader audience. There would have been (more than) enough action to keep people interested, with a strong story to make them want to press onwards.
Focussing on either end of the spectrum will lead to trouble, ultimately. A lot of people felt that Torment didn't have enough fights (hmm... I recall many, many fights myself... good fights. What it lacked in quantity, it made up in quality) but had a very strong story. People who wanted a lot of action heard this and avoided it. Dungeon Siege had an abundance of fights with a weak story and a fixed roleplay element (you're a farmer. deal. ) People who wanted a nice background story or complex NPC reactions avoided it.
Had Torment put in a few more fights (perhaps in optional side areas so those who didn't want any more battles could skip them), and Dungeon Siege put in more story both games would sell better. (Dungeon Siege doesn't need any help, really... there's a lot of action-RPG fans. But it's an example.).
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 2:26 pm |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
Great editorial Xen.
I just hope this new trend you're seeing doesn't result in a bunch of, Arcanum of Steamworks and Magick Obscura clones. Games that, to me, are too good to stop once you start but are too dull to be really great. I hope developers can make interesting games with or without combat.
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:11 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Arcanum suffered from a poorly balanced battle system that resulted in the beginning of the game being too difficult (you get hit, you die, you reload) and the end of the game being too easy. A better designed combat system and encounter placement strategy would have alleviated the 'dull' factor.
The pacing and placement of combat elements are vital to the success of any fantasy novel. I see no reason why they shouldn't be a factor to the success of any CRPG. If you put a proper pacing and placement of combat elements into a CRPG and then ensure that there's a viable way (preferably several) to resolve these elements WITHOUT combat (be it sneak by, talk, set up a trap, whatever) then those who want to fight... throw in the gauntlet and crash against the hoardes of evil. Those who want to talk convince the minions that what they're doing is wrong. Those who want to slip on by can do so. Just make sure you reward a player equally for any path.
As I mentioned in the comment section, I'm in favor of removing random encouters from main plotline areas in CRPGs. If people want to fight, level up, etc... place a few random monster generating zones. Large forests, abandoned crypts not important to the main plot, etc. That way those who want to challenge themselves by battling the forces of evil have places to go to develop their skills and tactics... while those who want to persue alternate routes to victory aren't left sitting there with tears in their eyes as their beautifully made diplomat who can talk their way through everything and follow a path of peace is forced to butcher hapless armies of monsters.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:34 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
I agree with the others, great editorial.
The two biggest factors missing from CRPG as opposed to RPGs are:
1. the human interaction. No explanation needed.
2. The open ended nature of an RPG - When Ogian the Killer Paladin convinces himself that his god wants him to go undercover as a serf to get access to the new temple in town, just to check it out - you can try to do...even if it is filled with devil worshipers.
While Arcanum allows many styles of play, partly solving 2, it is still constrained by the rules as set up...eg: you can not buy out the museum and set Gar free 'cuz you now own the place.
And no CRPG can possibly replace the atmosphere of a bunch of friends gathered together w/ or w/o beer to solve the latest conundrums facing their bold (sometimes not so bold) adventurers.
This missing element is offset (to a large degree) by the seamless battles that can get quite large...I would never consider running a game with complex fight rules (like Space Opera) and having battles with more that just a handful of characters...and if I had to deal with one (due to player stubbornness) I would be forced to strip down the rules to keep the pace up.
I hope to see more open ended games, or at least greater flexibility...I wish I had a system that could handle Morrowind (sp?). Sounds like it is just what I am looking for...I may have to buy a new PC just to play it!! |
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:39 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Quite true. This is what I said in the comments section for the editorial on the matter...
A CRPG will never be the exact same as a live DM until AI becomes a reality. Even such anticipated 'free form' CRPGs like Morrowind can't account for tabletop RPGs truly unlimited scope.
My players came across a pretty barmaid who was living a hard life. Still, she displayed spirit and determination... and the party recruited her. I certainly hadn't intended for her to tag along as a party NPC... but the party made a convincing case to her.
This was 3rd edition... so an adventure later and she was a level 1 commoner/level 1 warrior (one of the party fighters was training her). An adventure after that and she was a level 1 commoner/level 1 warrior/level 1 fighter (she got enough hands on experience as a warrior to join the ranks of fighter).
It will be a long time before every NPC in a CRPG is recruitable, can realistically give an answer any query no matter how unusual, or realistically react to the environment (this last request is easiest. We see them flee from monsters now in several games and scripting can do a lot. An improvement. ).
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 4:47 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
You are right on about CRPGs not being to keep up with the story like a live RPG until the invention of a true AI. I really like your expample of the girl. I got a dog in an RPG once ... I just couldn't leave the puppy in the burned out town (the GM had no clue I was going to take it...it was just thrown in for color). That d**d dog almost got me ...er...make that "my character" ... killed a dozen times - of course he also saved my chitlins a number of times. That is the kind of thing that makes a game come alive.
As opposed to: I remember in Ultima 6 needing a kettle and thinking ... why not just go to the kitchen of the this large castle and ask to pay for one? Or go to the black smith and commission one...I mean, you have to be able to buy these things. Ohh no...I had to find one of a few particular kettles! Not that it was hard to find, but it shattered the mood. |
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 5:31 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Nice article Xen.
And I agree with the points you make. Either AI or the human element needs to be included in the game to get a better balance. That's why I'm looking forward to NWN, because it brings in the human element through the DM client. If it's everything they say it is, then this could help push games further into the direction your looking for. Your players are getting bored? Throw some random encounter's in. Not enough story? Take over an NPC and add to what you created already. Make the story as complex as you want it. I am really looking forward to this. If done right, it could help 'evolve' games even further.
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 6:25 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I think everyone who is interested is hoping that Neverwinter Nights is everything it says it is. The DM can pause, make adjustments on the fly, directly control creatures and NPCs, and in short do anything he or she normally could in a tabletop game.
It will largely come down to the DM's interface. If it's hard to do any of those things... it will falter.
You can't take potential to the bank.
We'll just have to see. Personally, I think it will be cool because for once you can do things like represent animal companions. Now the Druid can have his pet brown bear wandering around. It's up to him to keep it from getting killed.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Apr 29, 2002 9:10 pm |
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