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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
| Non-RPG's getting RPG credit |
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There has to be a line drawn somewhere. If my skills control combat more than the character's skills I am playing, then it is not an RPG. As soon as my actions become more important than the characters whose role I am "playing" then I am not playing a role, I am the role.
Games can have "RPG" elements, but that doesn't make them RPGs. My reflexes, aim, and ability to push a button at the correct time should have no effect on me playing an RPG at all---Zero Effect. Effect null. None at all. Zip.
That’s how all role-playing games started out, and how all pen and paper games are and always have been, and how all true CRPG’s are and always have been. It will always be the deciding factor in if a game is a RPG or not.
I know, I wish I was wrong also, but sadly I am not. Dues Ex, Gothic, and all the others are great games with RPG elements but not RPGs. Gothic has a lot of RPG elements but combat is so action oriented that it cannot possibly be considered a RPG. And I know its crazy that combat is the deciding factor on what makes an RPG or not, but facts are facts, and logic is logic, and historical precedence is historical precedence.
I can call my steak knife a bastard sword, but it never will really be a bastard sword, because facts are facts, logic is logic, and historical precedence is historical precedence.
I’m not saying that I don’t like the action games with strong RPG elements, I just saying that they’re not RPGs. |
Mon Oct 27, 2003 5:13 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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You know... I agree. RPGs are about you deciding WHAT your character should do, not HOW to do it.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Mon Oct 27, 2003 7:30 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
I think you are way off. Stats should have nothing to do with whether or not a game is an RPG. Is Masters of Orion an RPG? Sure had a lot of stats. The only reason stats became the hallmark of the computer version of PNP is because character stats are much easier for a computer and programmer to manage than a story or freedom of action. The reason stats are used in PnP RPG is because that is the only real way to determine the outcome of an imaginary battle. You actually controlling the combat skills to some degree is more exciting than virtual dice rolling but, some may prefer the dice. It really makes little difference on the pedigree of the game. The real thing that makes an RPG an RPG is freedom to do as you wish whithin the game. Climb to the top if a mountain and watch the sun rise, or clear the entire forest of vermin at your lesure, it should be your choice. Pursue a career and alignment of your choosing, and find your own path whithin the confines of the game; that is the essense of RPG.
That is why I don't feel that IE and similar party-based games were really RPGs(sometimes fun, yes, but not RP). Several small characters, all controlled by you, marching around on painted backgrounds. The battles: either frantic RT or long strategic TB. I never felt like I was any character. I felt like the puppet master pulling the strings to create a strategic fighting machine and pulled through some preset gates of a story to get to the next battle.
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Mon Oct 27, 2003 10:46 pm |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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Action based combat = not real rpg?
I'm sorry but that's a load of bullshit. Why? well, because if you do "real" roleplay, you do all the actions of your character, including combat, not just telling them what to do.
Action based combat = not traditional rpg
I'm, tired of ppl saying that if a game doesnt have strategic combat, it's not a real rpg. |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:15 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
A roleplaying game is one in which you assume the identity of someone else. |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 12:45 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
How can I play the role of someone else if what he can do is limited by my hitting the right buttons at the right time?
I played the role of mario in SMB1,2,3,world etc.
I played the role of zelda, I played the role of player #1 playing against Ms. Smart in my Yatzee game.
If I was an actor and took the role of of Henry in a Shakespear play, the role is not changed or limited to my personal leadership/swordsmanship abilities, but Henry's.
If I am going to play a big tough warrior, then a big tough warrior is what I should be. Not Toni the crazy computer keyboard hitter and mad mouse clicker.
If the character's whose role I am playing skill is dependent on my timing, aiming, reflexes, key hitting ability, or mouse clicking ability then I am not playing a roll, I am the role.
Wanting or wishfull thinking will never change this. |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:51 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Jung, I dissagree. Stats are limitations, and that is what role playing is. Taking the role of a character and being limited to his/her abilities, strengths and weaknesses--not my own.
If you are going to role play someone that can't read, you shouldn't be allowed to read. If you are going to role play a very weak person, you shouldn't be able to lift heavy objects, etc. |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 1:59 am |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
I would have to disagree with you here, Roqua. It seems to me that you are trying to confine the limits of an rpg. There are really no limits to an rpg except the limitations that you yourself set. In Gothic just because i say when to swing the sword doesnt mean that my characters attributes have no say in what happens.
I could go on for a long time trying to convince you that combat is not the biggest factor in what make an rpg a true rpg but i know that in the end you will keep your bias and i will keep mine... So ill just save us the boring argument and stop here.
_________________
If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:00 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
For the best discussion of what is RPGs, refer to old thread "Some RPG elements".
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:21 am |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
Jung, I dissagree. Stats are limitations, and that is what role playing is. Taking the role of a character and being limited to his/her abilities, strengths and weaknesses--not my own.
If you are going to role play someone that can't read, you shouldn't be allowed to read. If you are going to role play a very weak person, you shouldn't be able to lift heavy objects, etc.
Gothic was a mixture of both stats and your own skill in timing the sword, which does not diminish the game's RPGness. If you take that away, all your left with is number crunching, which is deplored by many. It was a major mark against MW. You have this 1st person perspective and realistic enemies, but your character can only swipe at the air. That isn't realistic or satisfying. I would say that the point of combat in an RPG is more about preference, and the type of game setting than about being an RPG..
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"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 2:22 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Jung
Gothic was a mixture of both stats and your own skill in timing the sword, which does not diminish the game's RPGness. If you take that away, all your left with is number crunching, which is deplored by many. It was a major mark against MW. You have this 1st person perspective and realistic enemies, but your character can only swipe at the air. That isn't realistic or satisfying. I would say that the point of combat in an RPG is more about preference, and the type of game setting than about being an RPG..
Realistic? Yeah, very realistic that an extremely skilled fighter has EVERY combat action controlled by some ordinary guy behind a keyboard. Why should I even pretend to be a fighter in that case? Your CHARACTER is supposed to know how to handle a sword, NOT you.
Stats are the most important part of an RPG since THEY define the character you play.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 4:57 am |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
i'd have to say that the personality defines the character you play.
In real life for example, if you saw a really strong man you wouldnt say "holy moly, his strength must be over 100! I bet hes a good fighter." He could actually be a pacifist for all you know... So that means that his strength doesnt define him, his personality does.
of course, in a game if you wanted to build a pacifist character you wouldnt spend a lot of points on strength... so chances are if that man was in a game he would be a fighter 
_________________
If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:22 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Korplem
I would have to disagree with you here, Roqua. It seems to me that you are trying to confine the limits of an rpg. There are really no limits to an rpg except the limitations that you yourself set. In Gothic just because i say when to swing the sword doesnt mean that my characters attributes have no say in what happens.
I could go on for a long time trying to convince you that combat is not the biggest factor in what make an rpg a true rpg but i know that in the end you will keep your bias and i will keep mine... So ill just save us the boring argument and stop here.
I don't think it's just combat, when a quest or riddle comes up and my characters (not my own) abilities dictate if it is solved, that is an RPG. Like in Fallout 2 with the Radscorp, vs. anything in Kings Quest.
I'm saying because of the combat, and only the combat, Gothic isn't a true RPG. It is an action game with RPG elements. If it being twitch based makes it more exciting and fun to play, thats fine, it just disqualifies it from being an RPG.
I like Gothic more than a lot of RPG's--all the ones with dumbed down RT combat like DS and Diablo. I think it is a better RPG than those games, but I know it isn't an RPG. Same with Dues Ex.
(p.s. is it an RPG, or a RPG? A RPG seems right but sounds wrong) |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:45 am |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
Realistic? Yeah, very realistic that an extremely skilled fighter has EVERY combat action controlled by some ordinary guy behind a keyboard. Why should I even pretend to be a fighter in that case? Your CHARACTER is supposed to know how to handle a sword, NOT you.
Stats are the most important part of an RPG since THEY define the character you play.
If you want to let the computer control your character, then you do not really want to role play. Go play Simcity. I want to define my character through action, not stats.
_________________
"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:52 am |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
quote:
Originally posted by Jung
If you want to let the computer control your character, then you do not really want to role play. Go play Simcity. I want to define my character through action, not stats.
Exactly, well put.
_________________
If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:46 am |
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