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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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One thing to keep in mind is that copy protection isn't really effective in stopping all piracy. It is however effective in limiting casual copying and peer to peer spreading of software. It takes somewhat more criminal energy to find a warez site of fiddle with cracking software than just hitting the copy button. With that in mind however, something like star force has way too much side effects to justify its existance. It's geared at keeping the pros from cracking the game and of course fails. The industry should become more inventive at binding players. Create game abos, allow recruiting of new players for a reward, all that stuff that other media have been doing for decades. |
Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:37 pm |
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Guest
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Online Distribution. Like Steam.
I'm ready for it, and so are the developers.
No publisher demands, no rush jobs, the copy protection, no CDs to keep laying around. |
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Sun Mar 12, 2006 12:05 am |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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quote:
Originally posted by Dyne
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
but I, personally, make a negligible contribution to the current situtation.
Says you, and another X thousand other pirates. I'd say you lot combined make a pretty big contribution to the current situation.
"What if everyone were to do as I do?", as the consequentialists ask themselves.
What if they were? I don't control that. I can't even influence it significantly. My decision in this matter will not affect the decisions of other pirates. So I won't abandon piracy just because it harms the industry in the aggregate. Show me the harm caused by my actions and mine alone.
quote:
Originally posted by roqua1
That makes sense. That is the same logic I use to justify raping prostitutes.
I believe you meant to say, 'knife-raping teenage runaways.' Once you've decided to bludgeon someone with your slack-jawed stupidity and total lack of any sense of proportion, you've got to follow through and finish him off. |
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Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:49 am |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Acleacius
If you are trying to accuse those whom take software they have not paid for and use it for their own personal use or give it to someone without profit because they can not afford it or just cause they can, that is stealing, NOT piracy.
Actually, that's not stealing either, that's copyright infringement. 
What's the difference? Bigger penalties for copyright infringement.  |
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Sun Mar 12, 2006 2:51 am |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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Starforce employee links to pirated version of Galactic Civilizations II on Starforce offical forums because Stardock refuses to use Starforce.
Here is Stardock's statement on their offical forums.
http://forums.galciv2.com/index.aspx?forumid=161&aid=106741&c=1
Are you still thinking for yourself, people?
Edit
Opps I got beat, wierd it didn't show up for me till after I posted.
"Okay, I'll think for myself. ....."
The relevance of cash flow is immaterial and only you would care about butt-pirates so playing your little opus is boring. 
"Actually, that's not stealing either, that's copyright infringement.
No, copyright infringement is publishing copyrighted material without credit or compensation going to the holder of the copyright.  |
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Sun Mar 12, 2006 4:00 am |
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Carpathic
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 12 Feb 2005
Posts: 31
Location: Kitchener, Ontario |
I resent the belief of companies that I will pirate a game. I just try to reward companies that believe in my character...sounds dumb..but its my $$$
_________________
The biggest rocks are but grains of sand to an ocean. |
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Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:19 am |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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I agree Carpathic, even though I don't play Space Sims I am very tempted to go buy Galactic Civilizations II for that very reason. |
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Sun Mar 12, 2006 6:45 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Wow, that article on the Stardock site just re-inforces my dislike of Starforce. That sort of behaviour is contemptible!!
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Sun Mar 12, 2006 9:31 am |
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roqua1
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Acleacius
Starforce employee links to pirated version of Galactic Civilizations II on Starforce offical forums because Stardock refuses to use Starforce.
Here is Stardock's statement on their offical forums.
http://forums.galciv2.com/index.aspx?forumid=161&aid=106741&c=1
Are you still thinking for yourself, people?
Edit
Opps I got beat, wierd it didn't show up for me till after I posted.
"Okay, I'll think for myself. ....."
The relevance of cash flow is immaterial and only you would care about butt-pirates so playing your little opus is boring.
"Actually, that's not stealing either, that's copyright infringement.
No, copyright infringement is publishing copyrighted material without credit or compensation going to the holder of the copyright.
Cash flow and revenue stream is all-important and 100% relevant, to call it immaterial is the silliest thing I’ve ever heard.
Do music artists make most of their money by CD sales? Or do they also have cash flows from shows, radio, etc. Radio has always been a way to get the product for free. Before the internet people taped the songs they liked. The industry can be more dynamic because the cash flows from multiple sources in multiple ways.
Movies, why does anyone go to the theater? Higher quality presentation and impatience. Pirated movies before dvd release will always be lower quality. Why do people buy way too expensive HDTV’s and surround sound? And why do people with that set-up (home theater) go to the movies? Now, for all the block buster movies, there are always tie ins. LotR, Spiderman, Starwars, Narnia, Harry potter, make as much or more money with the non-movie crap. Didn’t Lucas make sure he always had the rights to the other crap? A theater release pirate will always lack quality, so you get people pirating movies that already paid to see it in a different medium probably. Or the small amount of people that value free over quality to the extend that a filmed version of a film, with the poor cinimatopgraphy and sound, are just fine. Or people that get the pirated dvd version of a release (that is lacking nothing in quality), and this is were it starts getting confusing for me. I heard Lucas talk about the pirates or people buying pirated goods being his number 1 loss of revenue. I wasn’t quite sure how it worked, if it was pre-dvd or not, as he didn’t give too many details.
A market that is willing to spend money on a product is only so large. All forecasts are done off of that. If stealing the product isn’t a choice the thieves will be forced to pay or not use the product. The fact is that the paying market will increase and the forecast will change. To maximize profit you forecast sales and cost. Sometimes a higher price tag means less sales and less profit, or it could mean less sales and more profit (and sometimes with some luxury items it means more sales and much more profit). Sometimes lowering the price tag means more sales and more profit, or more sales and less profit. The larger the buying market, the cheaper the total price. The higher the returns, the more games get financed, the better of the gaming industry as a whole.
Pirates hurt the whole gaming community, if pirated games were not a problem businesses would not use anti-pirate measures. There would be no starforce. Anti-piracy measures is now “Profit industry” (whatever that is, since every industry is a profit industry or tries to be, even non-profits, what does it matter if the money goes to stockholders or the pockets of the executives of Red Cross) because there is a need and demand for it. If there were no need for anti-piracy measures there would be no demand for it, thus no supply. Crazy how it works isn’t it? Now there there is a need, demand, and supply, there are businesses that want to profit off of there work. I don’t see what you guys are getting at. Should the star force work for free? Why isn’t it shady that bioware tries to get people hyped about the crap combat in there games and make it sound like it will be good, when it sucks, so the people buy their game? Isn’t that immoral and unethical, or as immoral and unethical as starforge trying to get people to buy there product?
There would be no starforge if people didn’t pirate. People do so reap what they sow. Don’t attack starforge, attack the companies that use it, and more importantly the pirates and thieves that create a demand for it. That is the only way that makes any sort of logical sense. This is an intelligence test. Either you can look past superficial jibber jabber and see the bigger picture, or you should be getting the drool wiped off your face with Corky.
Anyway, I still love that the AAA titles will use this, and I hope it moves to consoles and ruins that. I will still laugh, and I still think its great. No game purchase I plan on making uses this, as they can’t afford it. It is one of the benefits of having good taste. |
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Sun Mar 12, 2006 1:58 pm |
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Majnun
Village Leader
Joined: 02 Jun 2004
Posts: 89
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Ugh. Until this crap with GalCiv2 I've always been of the "who cares" mindset. I've played StarForce protected games before and had no problems (and I reformat my hard drive every 2-3 months anyway so it's not like it'd linger on my system very long).
But now, after seeing how they behave as a company (i.e. the GalCiv2 crap and more), I will *never* buy a StarForce protected product again. It has nothing to do with the invasiveness or the fact that it screws with some people's hardware. I will have nothing to do with them because of how the company and it's employees behave. Screw them and the companies who use their protection.
Roqua is mostly right about being mad at the pirates and the companies who use starforce. I have no way to show my anger at pirates...I just don't pirate games (although I used to back before bittorrent made it easier). And the only way to show your disgust with the companies using StarForce is to NOT buy their friggin games (and no, that does NOT mean pirating the damn games instead...that's just makes it WORSE).
But being angry at the pirates and the companies using StarForce in NO WAY makes StarForce any less deserving of that same anger. They deserve it equally if not more. Their product is crap and their employees are crap. If a publisher/developer uses them I won't buy *that* game...but that doesn't mean I won't buy future products from the same publisher/developer if the *stop* using StarForce. So for them it's a transitory disgust. For StarForce the anger and disgust towards them will not be going away (unless by some miracle they change their product and their ways...which I don't see happening).
I also hope posting that torrent link is illegal and Stardock sues the living crap out of them for it. That would be exactly what they deserve. |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 2:55 am |
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Guest
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Actually, there is a consistency in Starforce's linking a pirate site at their own board and their insisting their copy protection should have been widely tested and have no problem while there are different sources reporting problems related with Starforce.
In fact, many users accepted some other copy protections. Starforce is criticized because of its flaw. However, the company is trying to redirect criticism against their incompetence to "piracy," which seems to have relationship with the "culture" of the company.
At least, I don't think a copy protection should make legal users worry about its violating their privacy and/or systems. |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:32 am |
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fb
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by evil_lemming
2)Mount & Blade doesnt have Starforce on it, neither does Geneforge or Kult (the last three games I bought) and there all done by inde/small devs
Well, if you take a quick look at the list of Starforce-games (it should be easy to find, search for "boycott starforce"), you'll notice that most of the games there are from small developers. A lot of them are also highly innovative, just the type of games that EA, for instance, would never ever take a chance on.
Ofcourse SF isn't used on M&B or Geneforge, btw. It's a disc-based copy protection system.
quote:
I'm unsure how you rank "enjoying" I do know it was less than fun for me
Did you contact the support department? In most cases, these problems can be solved.
I've never had problems with any Starforce games, and I have over a dozen of them in total. Some of them are extremely enjoyable - in fact, two of the best games released last year used the system. I feel happy knowing that I supported great developers by buying those games, Starforce or no Starforce.
.
As for the huge GALCIV2 discussion, do remember that this was just the actions of one guy, who tried to show that the game was being pirated. He didn't try to hurt Stardock, like everyone claims. Nobody in their right mind would go to the StarForce forum for torrent links, so the very idea that they would try to "spread" warez copies from their forum is nuts.
It's also worth noting that as soon as the people in charge at Starforce saw this, they deleted the post. They've also posted a lenghty apology for the whole incident, which you can find at their forum. This, ofcourse, is completely ignored by everyone.
Btw, those who think Stardocks system is so great, do remember that a) you won't be able to download their patches from popular sites such as 3D Gamers and Worthplaying and b) if they go bankrupt or stop supporting the game, you won't be able to download patches at all. Galciv 2 is pretty buggy in it's original state, btw. As for systems like Steam...  |
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Mon Mar 13, 2006 11:45 pm |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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roqua1
You are changing the subject, but I wanted to respond cause this could be a worthy subject, not sure during this poll. 
"Do music artists make most of their money by CD sales? "
The most recent information I have is that Record companies/Pub treat artist like crap taking most of the Cd/DvD sales leaving the artist profits from doing gigs, which are very expensive to fund tours.
Most Pubs are only interested in funding there bloated economic structures, not mass distribution with equitable states for artist or fans.
The ones whom glorified nonessential middlemen feeding off others like a virus, enough OT for now.
"Roqua is mostly right about being mad at the pirates"
Well until roqua1 actually issues some facts rather than generalizing about game theft (pirating is selling stolen or copied disk), i.e. show us the factual data of game theft.
It is far easier to find factual data about how price increases reduce sales, which include the 10% - 20% increase in prices just due to some copy protections.
Even some of the biggest game companies (Epic comes to mind) have mentioned it is game prices that is reducing sales and is openly fighting for cheaper (cost to consumer) games.
You will notice that another obvious falsehood of these arguments is the complete lack of mention console game theft, which is by far much, more prominent.
Using the very reasonable examination of the massive reach consoles have beyond PCs plus the fact that they are possible to rent and PC games are not and from what I have read and been told (I don’t own a console) easier to copy .
Since consoles outnumber PCs vastly if your theoretical base for PC theft of those numbers can easily be applied to console games, would far exceed PC games.
The lack of any verifiable facts, plus the complete conscious, omission of consoles shows the incompetence of this argument pushed on people by Pubs.
Not to mention the omissions of course the another important piece, neglected is the possible explanation of theft due to poverty in many Nations just coming into the world of technology, which is also verifiable i.e. notice MS price adjustment for emerging Nations, due to lack of or economic infancy.
Guest
"Actually, there is a consistency in starforce's linking a pirate site at their board"
Oh I see so copy protection firms should be able to blackmail, strong arm and possibly violate international law?
Thanks for that enlightening considerate view, after reading your rationalization I know how Buddha must have felt.
fb
"Did you contact the support department?"
Where did you get this info, not only does starforce constantly publicly deny having problems or flaws, they have afai can see even lied about how and what level starforce works at.
Even having there lawyer saying journalist are wrong about operating at zero level access was a lie.
Then after they were caught because someone reverse engineered (in my limited knowledge) their software they issue and design fixes based on the flaws found in that public analysis.
We can certainly be glad for our fellow gamers whom have not had trouble. 
Even though that would impossible to assess if you do not have truthful information to actually make that statement, since starforce does not provide it how can you, Pubs or both (for the obvious plants sent to forums) make such an erroneous statement?
"actions of one guy"
Since he has not been fired seems likely he was high-level employee?
"Nobody in their right mind would go to the starForce forum for torrent links"
Yet it happened and according to what I have read in Stardock statement it was not taken down till it was requested by Stardock and was justified several times on starforce’s forum, as I recall.
Well the information about the apology only came after the request for Stardock and then 2 days later on Monday, as I recall.
You seem to imply starforce acted responsibly, yet all the info documented in forums seems to suggest, only after caught, just like they handle their dangerous copy protection scheme.
“those who think Stardocks system is so great, do remember that "
Odd these comments almost seem as if you are intentionally generalizing to justify copy protection, since the premise of these online systems only threatens Pubs, curious.
Why would you need to get them at popular site when you can get them from Stardock?
Well if starforce goes bankrupt will they still support their software?
Once again your using fear tactics without basis, since you can not name an online distribution system that has stopped supporting a game or gone bankrupt, well at least that I see in your post.
"This, ofcourse, is completely ignored by everyone. "
Well afai can tell the reason for this is you are presenting a different version of what happened, from the information that has been flooding across the net for the last 3 days. |
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Wed Mar 15, 2006 4:58 am |
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