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fatBastard()
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Denmark |
It seems clear to me that you Roqua are of the P'n'P ilk of role players and as such value very different aspects of role playing than an almost pure computer roleplayer such as myself does (the one P'n'P adventure I have played was designed specifically to me by a close friend so it doesn't really count).
Without being too presumptuous (I hope) I think I can say that you want the computer version of the role playing experience to resemble the REAL Pen and Paper experience as much as possible otherwise it isn't really an RPG. I, basing my knowledge of role playing on the computerized versions instead of the real deal, have long since accepted (and perhaps have come to appreciate) the many limitations of the computerized experience and have consequently begun to focus on what CAN be done rather than what CAN'T be done (not properly anyway).
In a P'n'P of the showdown between Luke and Darth Vader in the venting ducts of Bespin it would impact the sequence of events rather profoundly if the list of personality traits of Luke Skywalker included Vertigo but if the computerized version only offers you the choice of joining with your father or jumping off into the unknown AFTER losing your hand out on the platform, it doesn't really matter whether you pictured Luke as suffering from Vertigo or not.
I agree with you regarding the problematic classification of genres and as such I have tried to limit my examples to games that RPGDot covers and thus have a somewhat consensus here as to what makes an RPG.
I admit that I'm most familiar with games that put me in a more less critically important position and thus have a story molded around me. This has made me partial to games that have a story to tell and where I partake in the story versus games that I merely play but doesn't really lead to anything unless I stumple across it ("Blade of Destiny" or at least that was my impression of it for as long as I played before giving up on account of it being more about "being" in the gameworld rather than actually accomplishing anything ... much like most MMORPGs too for that matter). Call me a pseudo role player or a wannabe role player if you like (and you would probably be right  ) but the vast majority of CPRGs DO focus on taking you along for a ride, not as the driver but riding shotgun, in order to give you the best possible tour of the park even though that means leaving out the restrooms, the service entrance and the garbage cans. If the restrooms are noteworthy then by all means include them in the tour, otherwise leave them out and focus on what makes the park different from all the other parks ... okay, enough with the tour guides for now 
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Signature? ... erm ... nope, can't think of one. |
Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:13 pm |
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GothicGothicness
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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Truly great character creation died with the wizardry series. Enough said. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 4:45 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
It seems to me what you are saying is that something can be something else without reason or logic. Can a book drama remove all the drama when changed to the medium of TV and still be a drama? If you made a video game based on monopoly that had no relation to monopoly, would it still be monopoly?
Crpgs can be like p&p rpgs, therefore they should. Games not like rpgs should not be called rpgs. Adding c in front of rpg indicates a change of medium, not what the thing is. Rpg stands for role playing game. A role playing game is a thing with a past, a history, and are all connected by common traits. One key trait being character creation. Fudge, action!, D&D, VtM, Harn, Special system, Fallout, etc, all are rpgs, all share the same core functions, all achieve the same goals.
The rules are the engine, the story is the module or campaign. It can and has been done. Again, likes and dislikes have nothing to do with it.
I also grew up strictly on crpgs. I have never sat down and played a pen and paper game. I did play an online pen and paper game once with some people on RPGdot. But we got about 10% into the campaign and stopped. It was fun though.
It comes down to this though: if rpgs can be the same thing by book or in game format, but aren’t, how can they be called the same thing? If you can give me one example, just one, of this as being true in any other thing in regards to medium, I will concede the argument to you. If not, I have logic, reasoning, and 100% precedent on my side, which cannot be argued with, and must be seen as fact.
quote:
Without being too presumptuous (I hope) I think I can say that you want the computer version of the role playing experience to resemble the REAL Pen and Paper experience as much as possible otherwise it isn't really an RPG.
Close, but no. I want them to be interchangeable. They should be the same thing given by way of different mediums. At the very least I know a crpg has to give as much choice as possible were possible, not be impacted by my personal physical abilities, and never dictate how a person plays a role to be considered an rpg. Or else it is not a rpg and needs a new name to accurately reflect what it is. The whole reason why we label and categorize things. The reason why my couch, car, and toilet are not cows and will never be cows no matter how much i think they should be cows, since I like cows.
But if you (or anyone) can (or can't) answer that question above is what I'd like to see. Either way it goes, this is a good debate, and thanks for argueing with me.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 5:40 pm |
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Guest
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Character development has two aspects in RPG. One is character development in relation to gameplay. The other is that in relation to story, which is more widely used in other genres.
Talking of the former aspect, Fallout is an example of successfully offering various characters in terms of gameplay. There have been quite many CRPG with various good combat characters in TB, RTS style combat but FO is not only successful in offering various characters for combat but also dialogue/stealth options, which is rare in CRPG.
Planescape: Torment is popular among some people probably because it is a rare example of being successful in the latter aspect. KotORs seem to be designed with PST in mind but of course they are designed to be less literary or artistic and more entertaining, which is rightfully expected from SW games. However, IMHO, KotOR relies on the shock effect about the identity of the main character rather than trying to allow players to develop their characters through thematic choices while KotORII gave me (and apparently quite many people) impression that it was rushed out of the door even though some stuff starting from the lead designer worked for PST.
In any case, considering the current environment, it would be difficult to see another CRPG which could satisfy the standards achieved by FO or PST. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 6:47 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Ah, Roqua's on his "true definition" soapbox again. It would be far more fun to smack him around if he wasn't technically correct.
Seems to me that you've got a balance between depth of character and quality of story. If the story is good enough, you're willing to accept being on rails from a character standpoint. If you've got character development that has maniacs like me firing up Excel, a cliche "save the world" might be sufficient. I think the general move away from deep character design/development is linked to the influx of casual gamers. Wiz8 takes a lot of time and fiddling and replaying to get a comfy party you can work with. Far too much work for the casual gamer.
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Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 8:02 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
Ah, Roqua's on his "true definition" soapbox again. It would be far more fun to smack him around if he wasn't technically correct.
Is there any other kind of real correct that isn't subjective? Thank you for saying I'm correct though, these times are rare gems i shall hold dear to my heart. I love you.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:12 pm |
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fatBastard()
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Denmark |
Okay, I think I finally get what you're saying Roqua (I hope  ).
The basic rules and guidelines for what a role playing game is all about has indeed long since been established and in order for a computer game to be addressed as an RPG it should follow these rules and guidelines ... however there are several rules and guidelines that simply doesn't translate (or if they do they do so very arduously) to the computer world where the human reasoning of the Game Master has been replaced by the extremely simplified logic systems of a computer. I seem to recall Storm Front studios taking some heat when they admitted that there was several features in the 3rd edition of the D&D rules they wouldn't/couldn't include in "Pool of Radiance: Ruins of Myth Drannor" even though they had boasted previously about how the game was to be the first "true" implementation of the 3rd edition rules (this was before the game was released and therefore before it became a moot point considering how the game itself was bugriden as seldom seen until Dungeon Lords)
Now please don't ask me to name what rules or guidelines that can't be transfered from the written word to the computer implementation because I simply don't know any rule sytem well enough to do so (but a trait like alignment is of little or no consequence all but a few computer games and charisma is seldom more than for show ... pun intended ) and I must admit that I don't know half of the rule systems you mentioned (I thought the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system was created for Fallout but what do I know). However, I DO know that even the slightest deviation from the outlined path in a computer game can spell disaster if the developers haven't taken such deviation into account and made it possible in the code (in which case it is not really a deviation at all but rather a part of the outlined path). A human Game Master would easily and without so much as blinking be able to incorporate any deviation a player can think of into the direction he/she has planned for the players but such "on the fly" reasoning is impossible for computer logic.
If you look at Catholics, Protestants and Babtists they are all based on the same rule book, namely the Bible. If you focus most on certain parts and kind of ignore (or take lightly on) others you're Catholic but if you shift your focus you're a Protestant and if you shake the mix one more time you're a Babtist. They're all Christians but there are still enough discrepancies that they probably wouldn't want to be mistaken for anything other than what they are. If we put a Shia Muslim into the mix as well I'm sure you would object because now they are no longer based on the same book (only with different interpretations). My point of view is not the Christian rule book vs. the Muslim rule book (or no rule book for that matter). My point of view is all of them are religious people with certain aspects in common such as prayer and devotion to a meta physical being.
For me it is the same when it comes to computer role playing games: as long as they attempt to make it a "roleplaying" game I don't really care whether or not the game is actually based on a known and accepted rule book or something else (and when it comes down to it: even the occasional sessions of the gestapo officer and the leather clad nun having a go at it can be called role playing ... erm, did I just reveal too much  ) ... as to the question of where the line should be drawn if not when a rule book is discarded in favor of some homemade system I can't really answer that and stay in the scope of this discussion (as if that could be said of my often far fetched comparison examples )
I can certainly understand and respect that you feel differently in regards to what makes a CRPG and I can't really think of any example that would qualify as a canditate for your dare ... however, I CAN think of a situation where the opposite is true. In one of the many behind the scenes bits on LoTR:Fellowship of The Ring, John Rhys Davies talks about the leave taking scene in Lothlorien. In the book Gimli asks for a hair from queen Galladriel's head and she gives him not one but three and Gimli is totally smitten with her. Davies then explains that it is one thing to imagine such a scene in your head based on the written word but something else entirely when you're standing in full plate armour on the shores of a somewhat windy river and have to film Gimli reaching with his plated gauntlet for three flimsy hairs and grabbing them without it looking awkward and unaturally. In the end they chose to let Gimli tell of the encounter afterwards with a dreamy look in his eyes and his fist pressed to his heart. The essentials of the exchange is made clear to the viewer but the act itself didn't translate well from book to film, so they worked their way around it.
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Signature? ... erm ... nope, can't think of one. |
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:34 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Wulf
Just a side-note about the appearance and creation of gothic hero.
If ever there was a game crying out not to have any purposeful character appearance creation, it was the gothic series and i am somewhat disappointed that it should ever be suggested as to overide the creators objective.
It was a most predominant and essential requirement from the very outset and creation of the gothic concept that each and every player throughout the world to play the 'same' and nameless character, this then releases the character which is within "yourself" to differ by your own interpretation of the storyline, the gothic series of games are *dialogue led* so as to create an 'as-you-go' progressive and most necessary "worthy" advancement and not appearance advancement so as to differ completely from each other gamer. Every gothic player's hero must appear the same when starting out to achieve this purpose! - - a level playing field, for those of us not fully conceptual of the gothic games it is quite hard to grasp this ideology.
Even most recently Kai Rozenkranz has stated "the hero will remain nameless" and be uniform to each gothic 3 player, because it is the developement through strong dialogue led paths contained the storyline that essentially creates the gothic hero, i personally respect and favour this method.
I'm afraid I disagree entirely. By the way, the point of these pieces is to encourage discussion, so rather than being disappointed it should be an opportunity to discuss your position.
I understand you respect Piranha Bytes' concept but I don't agree with the necessity. You've used terms such as "level playing field" that have no meaning to me in a single-player environment - why is it necessary? Why would it have any impact on the dialogue-driven structure if my nameless hero didn't have a pony-tail? I think you imply PB didn't want players to focus on their appearance as they progress - having character creation doesn't dictate a certain type of character development throughout the rest of the game. And, of course, why does character creation have to be about appearance?
PB has already said the hero in Gothic 3 will retain some abilities - he won't be the weakling we see in the first two. How will it make sense for my Gothic 3 hero to retain some (generic) abilities but presumably none of the skills or personality I created from the previous games?
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
I think the general move away from deep character design/development is linked to the influx of casual gamers. Wiz8 takes a lot of time and fiddling and replaying to get a comfy party you can work with. Far too much work for the casual gamer.
I agree with you but disagree (with developers) it needs to be this way. Party-based games are (mostly) a thing of the past, so the complexity of Wiz8 is gone (unfortunately for us). It's funny how cRPG developers are so anxious to (potentially) alienate their core fans to embrace a wider audience, while MMORPGs always have character creation (for obvious reasons) and often quite complex development. World of Warcraft is the best selling PC of the last year or two - does anyone think Blizzard worried for a second that "casual" players would get overwhelmed figuring out "pulls", "dps", AoE", "aggro" and maximising their character builds for effective grouping? No - because they knew the product's strengths would draw players. The best-selling cRPGs remain products like the BG series and NWN -- I don't see much proof simplifying things for casual players* actually works.
quote:
Originally posted by fatBastard()
The point is that while CRPGs are trying to be perceived as roleplaying games they aren't and they probably never will be, at least not until a true AI has been invented, because in order to truly allow the player choices it is necessary with real time consequence calculation for every choice the player makes. Computer logic is purely a matter of True/False and every single "path" has to be preprogrammed by the developers no matter whether it is something simple like:
if (playerCharacter == male)
servingWench.respond("Why hello there big boy")
else
servingWench.respond("What'll it be?")
or an action/inaction with far reaching consequences, which very quickly becomes VERY complex to adhere to.
Every time the developers make a choice on your behalf they take a potentially huge burden off their own shoulders. Let me give you a rather corny example: Imagine a kind of prequel to Baldur's Gate where the god Baal is out to find the mortal woman to impregnate with his seed that is to become the protagonist in the Baldur's Gate games ... and you are to play that woman. In order for that story to make any sense whatsoever you simply can NOT choose to play as a male character.
Why is it embracing next-gen graphics with HDR lighting - which requires massive increases in asset creation costs - is to be expected but some simple "if...else" logic is too complex for dev teams to be expected to cope with? Honestly, we're selling ourselves out if we accept this.
On the story, my question would be: is that a good story for a cRPG? I don't think it's too hard to devise a story that is still entertaining but allows character choice - which I think is at the heart of an RPG. So - don't make an RPG with that story. Those sorts of stories often end up lame - a story the player can impact will be appreciated by the player because their choices are rewarded by changing the game.
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Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:07 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
FatBastard,
I don’t think its about rule books, I think its about goals. What’s the goal of a p&p rpg? What’s the goal of a crpg?
And I believe your LotR example perfectly articulates my point. Some concessions have to be made for changing medium, but what the goal is doesn’t change. It was a scene easily written, but hard to film. The goal of the scene was translated and adapted for the movie. Just like in a p&p campaign you can adlib choices made by the character, in a crpg you have to code or script them in before hand.
I am currently playing through Arcanum again, sometimes there are multiple ways to do something, sometimes really only one. But with that one way there are multiple ways of doing it. For instance, the elf skulls in Tarant. You only have one choice on how to get into the warehouse. But I can pick the lock, cast the open lock spell, or make the mechanical skeleton key (it would be nice if your character was strong enough to be able to bash the door down though, maybe you can but I don’t think so). There is like a bunch of ways to get in and see Gilbert Bates. And the game is loaded with action and consequences. I find it hard to think that a pen and paper game would have much more freedom of choice. Is Arcanum the greatest game ever made? Not in my opinion, but it’s a good crpg.
You could easily make a pen and paper game with the rules, in fact, some one basically did. http://www.heresy-gaming.co.uk/victoriana.html
But in the end the question is are the developers trying to make an rpg, or a game with some rpg elements. If most developers were trying to make real rpgs their games would be a lot different; they might not be better, but they would be different. They would be rpgs.
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Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:37 am |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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"Would Fallout or NeverWinter Nights fall under, Full character creation, since you dont really have an predetermined idenity yet?"
Help anyone?
Appoligies about posting this question again, but I would like to vote and would like some kind of standard to vote with, since so many people have different views on this. 
Thanks. |
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Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:16 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Yes. Both have full character creation (what else would you call them?). They have the option of pre-designed characters but full character creation is always available.
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Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:20 am |
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fatBastard()
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 40
Location: Denmark |
It is hard to argue against your logic Roqua because you are technically correct ... one might take note, though, that your initial question:
quote:
"What's the goal of a p&p rpg? What's the goal of a crpg?"
can be answered in many ways. It could be about social interaction between players (the boys's night out away from the wives/girlfriends). It could be about challenging the individual player's role playing abilities by forcing the characters into confrontational situations. It could be about gaining as much experience points as possible while gathering sweet loot. Or it could be about many other things other than merely what is stated on the back of the campaign box.
In the end it all, basically, comes down to the old question: "What makes an CRPG?". I would probably call many of the games you categorize as "games with some rpg elements" for rpgs but I'll admit that I'm pretty forgiving (perhaps too forgiving) when it comes to this game genre (I'll grab at anything even resembling an rpg at times).
quote:
Why is it embracing next-gen graphics with HDR lighting - which requires massive increases in asset creation costs - is to be expected but some simple "if...else" logic is too complex for dev teams to be expected to cope with? Honestly, we're selling ourselves out if we accept this.
Oh I agree. I finally got around to playing Might & Magic IX recently and that is one butt ugly game ... but after no more than 30 minutes into the game I never gave it a second thought because the old familiar M&M feeling was back so it didn't matter.
quote:
On the story, my question would be: is that a good story for a cRPG? I don't think it's too hard to devise a story that is still entertaining but allows character choice - which I think is at the heart of an RPG. So - don't make an RPG with that story. Those sorts of stories often end up lame - a story the player can impact will be appreciated by the player because their choices are rewarded by changing the game.
No it isn't a good story so be glad I don't work in the gaming business . However, by complaining about not being given a choice of the character creation process we are in turn removing a choice from the developers to create a story with predefined characters. If the developers have time for - let's say - 100 choices in the course of the game then I would rather have the choices be in-game choices (like the ones Roqua mentioned in connection with Arcanum) than pre-game choices (character creation) that in many cases have no other impact on the game itself than the little character portrait and the voice used for outbursts.
I know we are nitpicking here and I would instantly flip over backwards in joy at the news of a new Baldur's Gate or PlaneScape:Torment game (and yes the Infinity engine would do just fine with me). I'm merely trying to point out that if we are too stringent in our demands when it comes to the shape of the CRPG genre we risk getting stuck with the EA Sports problem where the same old game - with infinitesimal changes in the actual gameplay and a new title song - is being released over and over again instead of the next Gothic or Arx Fatalis.
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Mon Feb 20, 2006 2:11 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
It's a double-edged sword for me, as far as character creation goes.
On one paw, I of course like having a character that I can identify with, and live vicariously thru. The more personal and interesting I can make my alter-self of beloved cyber-child, the more im going to enjoy the game. Im a game-tweaker as it is, if I can change sounds or anything Im there, so being able to create a character is a joy.
On the other, it brings out the obsessive-compulsive nature in me that I outgrew as a child, or thought I did anyway. I'll literally spend hours agonizing over everything from name, to race, to stat choice, or profession. This is even more intense if it's to be a multiplayer game. I've actually found myself at Denny's at 3 am drinking coffee, reading thru the manual with notebook, the only one in the place beside the self-loathing teenager in black scrawling obsessively in his notebook of lost dreams and love at the old age of 16.
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“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:36 pm |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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"what else would you call them?"
Well honesty, until your examples, I think it was/is possible to confused Full Character or Blank Character.
I even reread the poll and your initial piece and was'nt sure if you were strictly speaking of PC or a broad spectrum which would include PnP.
I felt asking a dumb question was worth being able to give a more accurate (at least for me) answer, so appoligies (if it was an annoying question) and thanks for the indulgence. |
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Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:56 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
No, not annoying. The polls have very, very limited space for the wording. I'll try to make sure the accompanying post is clearer in future.
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Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:03 pm |
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