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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
Well, in every upcoming MMO they all try to balance the economy, or say they will have a very innovative way of economic control. Thats all fine and dandy (yeah I said dandy) but I think we should all be poor bastards.  IMHO. Full platemail is expensive stuff, or at least it should be. No level 20 or equivilant should be able to afford that stuff. I don't think it should be as priciy as a house or whatnot. I think a suit should cost 100 gold (i'm going on the DAoC style of game 100 copper =1 silver; 100 silver =1 gold ect.) not have the suit unabtainable, but have it so not everyone is walking around with 1000 plat to sell on ebay. And to see someone walking around in a full suit of plate, you will hold a bit of respect for them. A high end character in the game, who has been good at budget management should be able to afford a full plate suit. Nobody likes being poor, or in rags but is killing a rat really worth 10 silver peices? Plus IMO, implimenting a tight budget into a game, adds a lot of stategy to a game. |
Tue Sep 30, 2003 1:09 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
Problem isn't really about forcing players to keep a budget and implement money-sinks in a game. The problem is controlling the high-level characters. Keeping DAoC as an examples, after a few short months the economy was shot because there were already many level 50 people who had nothing else to do with their money than to give it away to lower-level guild-mates. When that happens, your economy falls flat, whatever was done to control it beforehand. And even if you implement something new down the road, which is designed to create a high-level money sink, these guys have had so long to get a bunch of money that it doesn't matter anymore.
I'm actually not sure if there's a really good solution to this...  You could create a system that makes money hard to come by in the first place, but then you'd have casual players all over your back complaining that they can't stay competitive because they can't save enough money to get decent armor. You could implement a degradation system that eats away at your equipment rather rapidly to promote an active economy, where repairing your armor and weapons would be more viable than buying a new set. I guess that could work... Buying a plate mail would be possible for a level 20 guy, but could he sustain the high maintenance costs of such an armor?
Still, any solution you'd fine would be dead in the water as soon as a high-level guy gives half his earnings to a friend to help him on his way up...
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=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:18 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
I like the idea behind your argument, but severely disagree with many of the premises and conclusions you reached.
quote:
Originally posted by Kiff
No level 20 or equivilant should be able to afford that stuff. I don't think it should be as priciy as a house or whatnot.
I believe there should be no levels in the game to start with. It's these levels that cause economies that are out of whack. After all, when you have levels, then someone who's level 100 must, by every definition of the system, be able to get inordinate sums of reward money. BTW, reward money is another thing I find to be very wrong when it comes to virtual economies. Anyways, what happens when a level 100 person gives 10% of their wealth to a level 1 person. This level 1 person will suddenly be more rich than they could possibly become in months of play time (as a level 1 person), ergo creating an inappropriate distribution of wealth. Levels are bad for economy.
quote:
Originally posted by Kiff
I think a suit should cost 100 gold (i'm going on the DAoC style of game 100 copper =1 silver; 100 silver =1 gold ect.) not have the suit unabtainable, but have it so not everyone is walking around with 1000 plat to sell on ebay.
For as long as there is an infinite amount of reward money available, people will be selling 1000 platinum daily. About the only thing you can do to combat this is devalue money by several magnitudes of power, and basically kill your normal users. Most people play on average 1-2 hours a day. Power players play on average 12-15 hours a day. How do you have an economy that does not discriminate against your average person, but also does not slight the power user?
quote:
Originally posted by Kiff
And to see someone walking around in a full suit of plate, you will hold a bit of respect for them.
Actually, I have zero respect for power gamers and Ub3r l33t d3wdz. For me to respect you, you need to earn my respect. Not be willing to cheat, steal, exploit, abuse and acquire virtual wealth through any means possible to be "the best" and most ub3r.
quote:
Originally posted by Kiff
A high end character in the game, who has been good at budget management should be able to afford a full plate suit.
First, whatever system you design for normal people, will be broken by the power gamers. If, on the other hand, you cater to power gamers, the normal people will not play the game. Therefore, the whole concept of a normal progression curve cannot be applied to a level based game.
quote:
Originally posted by Kiff
Nobody likes being poor, or in rags but is killing a rat really worth 10 silver peices?
The whole idea of getting any money for killing a rat in the middle of a forrest doesn't strike you as odd? Be it 10 silver or 1 copper? Shouldn't you be able to get some meat and pelts off of it? So you can make a nice rat stew out of the meat, to feed yourself and make yourself stronger, and perhaps cure the pelts and make an article of clothing that you may perhaps sell or trade for a better sword?
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Tue Sep 30, 2003 2:29 pm |
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Guybrush Threepwood
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 500
Location: Oklahoma |
I liked SWG's economy....but I can't play the game at the moment due to having a router. Anyhoo I could understand getting money from rats if there was some sort of infestation and they happened to be plague rats with very debilitating effects. Still....that'd only garner a flat rate on a specified number of rats killed for reward money.
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"What are you gonna do? Release the dogs?! Or the bees?! Or dogs with bees in their mouth so that when they bark they shoot bees at you?" - Homer Simpson |
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Thu Oct 02, 2003 9:44 am |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Guybrush Threepwood
Anyhoo I could understand getting money from rats if there was some sort of infestation and they happened to be plague rats with very debilitating effects. Still....that'd only garner a flat rate on a specified number of rats killed for reward money.
Getting a reward for killing rats makes sense if someone asks you to do it and then gives you money for killing them. But what MD was referring to, I believe, was actually finding money on the corpse of a rat, or any other animal for that matter, which makes no real sense.
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
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Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:04 pm |
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RedTiger
Village Leader
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 93
Location: Center of Chaos |
I definitely agree. Finding money on a dead rat has always been a strange way to amass a fortune. Now if it was a general quest that you'd receive money for extermination work that you'd be able to collect in a town or would be placed in your bank after killing a certain number that would be more likely. if you're going to have to loot a rat or any other low level animal in a game you should just find a corpse or cheese or maybe if you're lucky a swallowed piece of jewelry or something like that. but then how much real world logic does it make sense to add to these games? |
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Thu Oct 02, 2003 4:46 pm |
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Kiff
Protector of the Realm
Joined: 27 Oct 2002
Posts: 257
Location: Indiana |
Ok I think I confussed everyone with my original post. I wasn't saying that you should get money on a rat, or that you should get money from killing rats or that the wiskers and hide of a rat is valuable. I'm saying that anyone in those low levels should be as poor as dirt. They should look up to dirt because of it's wealth above them. EQ upsets me becasue from a couple rats I can earn a plat. I think, IMHO, in a game if you try to sell someone the whiskers of a rat they should laugh at you in your face and make you cry like a little baby who needs a diaper change. (Sorry rough day at work)
Also, in referance to my statment of respect for someone wearing a full suit of plate armor. Yes I agree with you that anyone no matter what they have on needs to earn respect. But what I was trying to point out is that it should be so difficult to own, maintain and/or obtain a full matching suit of plate armor that when you see a person with all of that on, you would think wow he as worked hard and must be doing something right. Because to have that kind of wealth you would not just be a power gamer, but be smart, thrifty, and money savvy. I show everyone respect, BECAUSE I don't know them....people lose my respect, not gain it. |
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Thu Oct 02, 2003 7:38 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Kiff
Ok I think I confussed everyone with my original post. I wasn't saying that you should get money on a rat, or that you should get money from killing rats or that the wiskers and hide of a rat is valuable. I'm saying that anyone in those low levels should be as poor as dirt.
I don't think anyone got confused by what you said, but rather that the conversation shifted a little bit from the original topic 
That being said, I also think that we argued that what you dream of happening will never be possible as long as there are high level people giving (or donating) money down to lower-level people, which you again don't seem to account for.
I'll give you a practical example from SWG (sorry but that's what I'm playing right now  ):
I recently got myself a shiny new composite armor, arguably one of the best suits in the game (call it plate armor if you will). It cost me 150,000 credits, no small amount by any account. I'm in the upper tier "levels" among players by now (although there isn't any levels per se in SWG). Since I bought it I am cashing in on money faster than I can spend it. The first few days I wore my shiny new armor I kept being stopped by people asking what kind of armor it was, and complimenting me on how nice it looked, and even some people saying I looked pretty powerful in it. /evil grin
2Weeks later the game is starting to crawl with them, and my armor doesn't look so special anymore. How can so many people (some relatively lower-level I might add) can afford this armor now? Well, I gave 15,000 credits to a newbie guild mate last night just because I felt bad that he was struggling for money to buy himself a gun. I guess a lot more people are doing the same. Do I feel bad about giving him the money? Not at all. He certainly doesn't feel bad about it either! And me? Well, I made that 15k up in about half an hour........... what is 15k to me? Heck, I could have given him 30k and it still wouldn't have hurt me in the least bit.
Rewind to 2 months ago, and I really was dirt poor, struggling to even get out of a planet from which I couldn't even buy a ticket out of because I didn't have the money! Point is, games evolve, so does the economy. The high-level players eventually have more than enough to sustain themselves and 5 other people around them! And when we start giving away our wealth, THAT's what kills your economical paradise. It's not really the economical system itself more than the players.
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=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Oct 02, 2003 8:35 pm |
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