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Farrier
Village Dweller
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 10
Location: London, UK. |
| Request for thoughts on a new UW2 remake. |
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The request
I am making, as a gift for a specific person, an Ultima Underworld II remake.
Anyone want to help? I'll take anything, from programmers willing to work in what must be the world's most esoteric programming language after brainfsck, to graphics designers, to playtesters, and so on.
But actually, given the following details, I suspect I won't get any volunteers, so what I'm really after is any castoff stuff from other remakes, or any stuff that people don't mind me swiping (graphics, etc) from their own remakes.
The other request
As this is intended to be a surprise gift for someone, please don't talk about this remake beyond the walls of this forum. At least until it's complete. Which means no posting this to Aiera or the Reconstruction. I'm sorry, but please don't :) If I give up, I'll put everything I have in the Orphanage, though.
The disclaimer
This is not like the other Ultima remakes: the result will be WORSE than the original product, more limited, poorer graphics, etc.
This is because I am creating a mod in a specific engine. The remake is to be a gift for the maker of that engine. No more details on who, though, since I would like it to be a surprise for them, and am worried about leaks :) Hence the request above.
The nitty gritty details
Limitations
The engine is an isometric one, with 4-way, 1-square-at-a-time movement.
The screen shows only about 8x8 squares/grid units of the map.
Only one item, one player and one floor can be in each square at one time.
There are tight restrictions on the number of object/floor/wall graphics, map size and number of lines of code per map.
Squares are viewed diagonally from 30 degrees from horizontal, giving square proportions of a 2:1 diamond, 16 pixels high, 32 wide: about the same as FallOut.
There's no way of tracking individual occurances of an object type, so each object that needs to be individually tracked needs to be a unique item type. So each "yellow key" needs to be a different item type, if they open two different doors. This eats into the item-type limitations.
Also, being isometric, I have the obvious "walls infront of the action" issues, so need to create transparent walls, ankle-high "wall stubs", or a combination of the two. This is really crippled by the limitation ont he number of wall types, which is almost insignificantly tiny, so the transparent and stubby walls will probably have to be objects, though this will eat into the object-types quota.
You can see now that it's not going to be anything like as good as UW2, right? :) Not even beginning to be close to approaching it. In fact, you're saying "WHY an underworld? WHY not another ultima???" Well, it's because of the person I'm making it for.
And I want to do it anyway, to prove that the engine has what it takes to make this game work.
What's done so far
So far, I have (more or less, mostly less):
- Extracted and "remastered" midis from the UW2s, converted to stereo, and fixed for standard Windows Midi tables.
- Extracted 2-D character graphic files.
- Extracted, and converted 2-D object graphic files. They are currently half the resolution I need (about 16x16 instead of 32x32), which means either scaling them up 2:1 to look rather blocky but "authentic" (which is what I've done for the time being), or pixelpoking them to be twice as high res and prettier (which I'll do if anyone has any use for higher res graphics in any other UW2 remake).
- Extracted Wall graphics.
- Extracted Portraits.
- Extracted Cutscenes.
- Extracted 3D objects, but probably can't be used unless I can render them into isometric in some 3D program.
- Extracted conversation text.
- Extracted maps, including object and trigger positions.
[Edit: I should definitely point out that it is not I who have done most of these things. Seascape Dragon did all the data extraction, and a player of the game for which this is a mod, by the name of DarkHorse Pterid, did the midi conversion. I've done graphics conversion and programming.]
Unfortunately, none of the existing scripting or triggering can possibly work in this isometric engine, so it all needs to be redone from scratch.
I have written code modules for:
- NPC movement.
- NPC schedules.
- NPC conversation trees.
- Inventories, including "unlimited" (well... ish) bag-in-bag.
- Runic spell system (well, you have to SAY the runes, but that's good enough. I could modify the inventory system instead, but it would suck).
- Paperdoll armour/weapon/rings.
- Object interaction, including object-on-object (kill spider: skup spider silk. Eat honeycomb: skup wax. Combine wax + silk: skup candle. Use candle: skup lit candle. Use lit candle on another candle or torch: skup them as lit, too. Use candle or torch on corncob: skup popcorn. Eat popcorn or corncob... and so on.)
- Fog of exploration (where you can't see places you've not been yet).
- Automap.
- Rather crappy combat.
These modules haven't all been stuck together, though, and not all of tem might get used, since the total comes to over the number of code lines I am allowed per map. I'm also using the maps to store a ton of data (the floor type and item type in a square can be used for an x and y coordinate pair, or for a string number and an NPC's response, or...)
But on the other paw, you might only be able to do some stuff on certain maps. Fortunately, you don't really need magic in Britain, so that can be taken out for the conversation stuff. I might need to split the Britain map chronologically, with the conversation options and the later ones, or I might just be able to just trim the conversation trees to make them fit.
I can't figure a way to do:
- Fog of war (you can't see areas you've already been).
- Annotatable automap.
- Trading interface.
- Chat with portraits.
None of these seem like gamekillers though, so I'm pretty happy.
Miscellaneous thoughts
At one square wide, the corridors look too tiny. At two wide, they look too huge. I think the only answer here is to make them one wide, and change the character sprite scale. I could go for two game squares to one UW-map-square, so I could have passing in corridors, 4 items per square, and emulate diagonal walls better. But that'd reduce the "viewing distance" to an impossibly small two UW-map-squares.
Armour/weapon degradation isn't coded yet, but could fairly easily be accomplished with a 4-stage thing of having a small percentage chance each combat of it changing from "perfect"->"damaged"->"battered"->"destroyed". Except for one tiny issue: objects in their hands cannot be affected in any way by the scripting language. Fun, fun. No biggie, though: that's what the paperdoll is for.
At the moment, combat consists of the player walking into the victim. If they're hostile, they fight. If friendly, they talk. But if people could think of a better way, I'd love to hear.
The 1-object-per-square poses some of the biggest problems. Because of wall ornamentation (fires, etc), random decor, furniture, NPCs, and so forth, some corridor squares may already have items in, and hence stuff will be undroppable, unless I treat every square as a bag/chest, which is not realistically possible. So I'll have to cull the number of objects in UW2, which will definitely restrict its novelty.
Summary
If this project seems an amusing distraction, and you think you've something you can contribute, even if just playtesting time, I'd be hugely grateful.
Also, if there's anything from an existing project that you think might be a good addition to this, and which I might be allowed to use, please let me know.
And if you just want to talk about it, please do! I need all the encouragement I can get. I guess, realistically, that's the biggest reason I wrote here.
If anyone's interested, I'll even tell you (in a way google won't pick up :) who it is, and the name of the engine. Though given the descriptions above, anyone familiar with it should already know both :)
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Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:14 am |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
How well do you know this person cause this seems like a lot of work for a simple "thank you". Have you considered instead a hand written note or sending a gift.
I'm not saying you can't pull it off, but why not express your gratitude by offering your programming services to the recipeint on something he may *really* need help on.
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All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Tue Mar 15, 2005 2:53 am |
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Farrier
Village Dweller
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 10
Location: London, UK. |
I know them very well, and consider them close friends. I may soon move to live with them.
And they already have all my programming skills, such as they are, at their disposal :)
This will therefore be a spare time project, I estimate it will take about a year to get playable, as it has taken me about a year to get to this point.
This will make it a well-timed birthday gift :) A deadline like that for a release date always helps!
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Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:04 am |
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Withstand the Fury
Head Merchant
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 50
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
I have to wonder why you'd post something you want to keep a relative secret in a PUBLIC forum, but that would just be me. I will refrain from posting details of this project on Aiera for the moment - should you develop it to a full release, however, I hope that can change.
My only thoughts for you would be to speak with some of the other developers working on other projects - most are happy to entertain questions of one sort or another. Talking with the Pentagram team, or DOUG the Eagle Dragon, or some of the Exult team, would probably have been a better choice. In fact, I think the Exult forums would probably be the best place to start - Andrea and Dr. Code haunt those forums all the time, and both are insanely talented programmers.
 Withstand the Fury Dragon
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Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:38 pm |
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Farrier
Village Dweller
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 10
Location: London, UK. |
Definitely: if I finish it, I'll release everything and it can be distributed as people wish. I do try to release most of the stuff I do to the public domain (I have issues with the GPL, and even the LGPL). I'll also try to write scripts to extract and convert those parts (graphics) that I do not have copyright over, rather than distributing the graphics themselves, so that I can release it all on the public domain without issues.
If I do end up giving up, then as I said, I'll submit it to the Orphanage instead, with full documentation of my progress.
I'm kindof unsure what to do with the midis, though: they're most likely copyright to the Fatman, and I don't want to trample HIS toes, I've the greatest respect for the guy. On the other paw, DarkHorse has done a great job converting them to stereo and tweaking them: it'd be a shame for that work to go unappreciated. What do people think?
Same issue with modified graphics, too: so far, I've just extracted to bmp, scaled, and imported them as objects, which is all scriptable. But if I were to manually frob them to increase the resolution, then that would no longer be scriptable, but they would still remain copyrighted. Tricky one that: I think I might just stick with the scaled graphics to avoid those issues :)
The recipient is oripahS "niroleF/taC.rD" divaD (Fel), and the engine is his online game, aidacruF (Fc), and its scripting engine, kaepSnogarD (DS).
He loves seeing what people can do with Fc, and this will be far and away the most ambitious project ever done on it in seven years, so he should get a big kick out of it :). I was originally considering just doing Britain, but he mostly worked on Talorus (spot the note he left on a scroll there ;) so I guess I should implement that, too... and if I'm doing Britain and Talorus, I might as well go the whole hog, right?
I'll most likely do those two areas first, though. The castle will be the biggest challenge, I think.
I'm asking on a public forum since I'm pretty sure that he won't come here, and anyway, where the heck else should I ask, in the first instance? :) Thanks for the pointers for other places to ask, I'll try there, too :)
The reason I asked for it not to be too widely announced or discussed is that if it's announced in very public places, word might leak back to him before it's meant to. Also, if his name appears in Googlable form, then it's likely that either he'd find it in a vanity search, or someone searching for his name would find it and tell him :) Then again, it's in a form that can be found by Elgoog now... ah well :)
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Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:10 pm |
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Withstand the Fury
Head Merchant
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 50
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
Definitely: if I finish it, I'll release everything and it can be distributed as people wish. I do try to release most of the stuff I do to the public domain (I have issues with the GPL, and even the LGPL). I'll also try to write scripts to extract and convert those parts (graphics) that I do not have copyright over, rather than distributing the graphics themselves, so that I can release it all on the public domain without issues.
Copyright on remakes is dicey business. My advice, again, would be to check the legal notices attached to other high-profile remakes, such as Lazarus or Exult, and emulate those - they are pretty comprehensive, and both projects have been relatively free from legal hassles.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
If I do end up giving up, then as I said, I'll submit it to the Orphanage instead, with full documentation of my progress.
Cool. Make sure you check out the Orhpanage submission guidelines if it comes to that (and I hope it does not), because there are a few rights you, as original creator, can elect to retain should someone else pick up the project and run with it.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
I'm kindof unsure what to do with the midis, though: they're most likely copyright to the Fatman, and I don't want to trample HIS toes, I've the greatest respect for the guy. On the other paw, DarkHorse has done a great job converting them to stereo and tweaking them: it'd be a shame for that work to go unappreciated. What do people think?
Other high-profile mods, most notably Lazarus and Redemption, feature remixes of the classic Ultima music. There is nothing wrong with doing this. It's one thing to take the original songs and remix them into a rocking techno soundtrack - that would not fit with an Ultima at all. But to take the tunes, update the instrument sounds, and enhance the tracks for the more advanced computer sound systems available today is no crime at all.
Just make sure you credit the original composer.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
Same issue with modified graphics, too: so far, I've just extracted to bmp, scaled, and imported them as objects, which is all scriptable. But if I were to manually frob them to increase the resolution, then that would no longer be scriptable, but they would still remain copyrighted. Tricky one that: I think I might just stick with the scaled graphics to avoid those issues
If you use the original textures, those are copyright. If you vectorize them and enhance them so they look better, they are still copyright, but there is nothing wrong with doing this because let's face it - modern hardware can support more advanced texture details than before. If you want to update the graphics, go right ahead and do so - it is quote possible (check the LOW project out - there is a link at Aiera) to release updated graphics that look similar to the original but are more suited to modern hardware and look way better.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
The recipient is oripahS "niroleF/taC.rD" divaD (Fel), and the engine is his online game, aidacruF (Fc), and its scripting engine, kaepSnogarD (DS).
Hee hee...all this secrecy!
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
He loves seeing what people can do with Fc, and this will be far and away the most ambitious project ever done on it in seven years, so he should get a big kick out of it . I was originally considering just doing Britain, but he mostly worked on Talorus (spot the note he left on a scroll there  so I guess I should implement that, too... and if I'm doing Britain and Talorus, I might as well go the whole hog, right?
Fair enough.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
I'll most likely do those two areas first, though. The castle will be the biggest challenge, I think.
Interiors are difficult, period. That's been my experience with Lost Sosaria.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
I'm asking on a public forum since I'm pretty sure that he won't come here, and anyway, where the heck else should I ask, in the first instance? Thanks for the pointers for other places to ask, I'll try there, too
Oh, okay - that's reasonable. Admittedly many "old Ultima dogs" don't show up here all that much - it's us young whippersnappers that really rule these forums.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
The reason I asked for it not to be too widely announced or discussed is that if it's announced in very public places, word might leak back to him before it's meant to. Also, if his name appears in Googlable form, then it's likely that either he'd find it in a vanity search, or someone searching for his name would find it and tell him Then again, it's in a form that can be found by Elgoog now... ah well
Actually, in some respects, this forum wasn't the best idea, since Google does an indexed form of search that relies in part on the number of hits a page generates to determine its ranking. These forums are quite busy, even if there aren't many old-school Ultima fans that check them.
But hey, your secret is probably safe for now.
 WtFD
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Project Lead: Worlds of Ultima: Lost Sosaria
Editor-in-Chief: Ultima: Aiera
Administrator: The Orphanage |
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Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:29 pm |
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Farrier
Village Dweller
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 10
Location: London, UK. |
Yup, thanks for forwarding me to the Exult forums: I picked up one good tip there already.
Rather than convert from UW2 to Fc, I should convert from UW2 to a machine-parsable and format, (preferably standardised, and preferably text: CSV, XML, and standard non-lossy image types like png), as an interim step. Then convert to Fc from that.
This will then have two advantages:
1) The community gets a bunch of standardised, parsable data files for UW2 (or at least, a bunch of scripts to generate them).
2) The community gets a bunch of scripts to generate Fc files from data files.
Two big wins for the community! :D
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Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:43 pm |
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Farrier
Village Dweller
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 10
Location: London, UK. |
Since you say that remixing and distroing midis is OK, I've put DarkHorse Pterid's remixes of Fatman's work online.
Feel free to link or redistribute all you want, so long as it's reasonable use of the Fat Man's work :) There are only three of them I'm afraid, DHP didn't remix the whole set: but these are, I feel, the important ones to have remastered :)
I'd like to put a copy of the original midis there too, for comparison: do you think that would be OK?
Without a side-by-side comparison, they don't sound much changed to me atall, but comparing them, the difference is quite startling.
I feel that, for someone who's never even played the UWs, he's done a bloody marvellous job! :)
http://www.dewimorgan.com/coding/ultima/uw2/
I've also popped some stuff from my recent play-through of U9, might be handy to someone, might not: item lists and whatnot. I had the "Rune and sigil in the air above the shrine" bug, but thought they'd been destroyed, so wanted to modify a savegame to change some black pearls into a rune and sigil. Then once I'd done that, and played on a few hours, I thought of checking the net for a solution, and discovered that they'd been there, right over my nose the whole time :)
Oh, and there's a (deeply flawed, but good enough for getting about) script there for converting sextant coords to map coords, too.
Again, feel free to link all you want, though I suspect there are much better sources for all this information.
http://www.dewimorgan.com/coding/ultima/9/
[edit]
Oh my WORD! :D I found my very first EVER non-BASIC program, "editor.cpp", with a filetime of 1993 :) It's a DOS-based underworld2 savegame editor, written in C with some C++ syntax. I thought I was so l33t...
It is deeply, deeply horrible, and comes with no warranty at all, but amazingly it actually still works on my system, as well as it ever did (it can mess up the weight allowance, but is good enough to get you the car to play with, or to repair your items:). If you read the code, you'll see why I say "amazingly": I am having a hard time understanding what I was smoking at the time, the program structure, the commenting the... *shudder*
It took a good few minutes of reading the code to understand how it was actually doing what it was doing, and it was all I could do not to modify and fix it :) I am in fact leery of distributing it, but it's been 12 years, I think the world needs a good laugh.
It also comes with an item list for the game, data.dat.
Enjoy.[/edit]
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Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:50 pm |
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Withstand the Fury
Head Merchant
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 50
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
Since you say that remixing and distroing midis is OK, I've put DarkHorse Pterid's remixes of Fatman's work online.
There is a strong difference between remixing a song and outright destroying it. If you're re-mastering it and updating the instruments, converting it to stereo, then you're not really destroying it. Destroying it would be shifting it to a different tonality (major to minor, harmonic to melodic, etc.) and/or re-making it without ever having heard the original and having only a vague remembrance of someone else's rendition.
If this is good enough to post online for comparison, it's anything but the destruction of the piece. I think the Fat Man would enjoy it, if it has been done well.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
Feel free to link or redistribute all you want, so long as it's reasonable use of the Fat Man's work There are only three of them I'm afraid, DHP didn't remix the whole set: but these are, I feel, the important ones to have remastered
Oooh - I'll have to give them a listen. If they are better than the ones I have right now, I may add then to my NWN module in place of the current UW songs I am using.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
I'd like to put a copy of the original midis there too, for comparison: do you think that would be OK?
Absolutely. Just make sure credit is given on your site and copyright acknowledged.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
Without a side-by-side comparison, they don't sound much changed to me atall, but comparing them, the difference is quite startling.
I feel that, for someone who's never even played the UWs, he's done a bloody marvellous job!
Well, he need not ever have played the game, but if he's a music buff with a respect for the original piece, he can probably concoct wonders.
quote:
Originally posted by Farrier
I've also popped some stuff from my recent play-through of U9, might be handy to someone, might not: item lists and whatnot. I had the "Rune and sigil in the air above the shrine" bug, but thought they'd been destroyed, so wanted to modify a savegame to change some black pearls into a rune and sigil. Then once I'd done that, and played on a few hours, I thought of checking the net for a solution, and discovered that they'd been there, right over my nose the whole time
Oh, and there's a (deeply flawed, but good enough for getting about) script there for converting sextant coords to map coords, too.
Again, feel free to link all you want, though I suspect there are much better sources for all this information.
I'll evaulate each on its merits. If there's something worth posting, I'll let the proper people know, and/or post them to Aiera myself.
WtFD
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Administrator: The Orphanage |
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Wed Mar 16, 2005 1:55 am |
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Farrier
Village Dweller
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 10
Location: London, UK. |
By "distroing" I meant distributing, not distroying. Apologies for the confusion :) I certainly did NOT mean to imply that DarkHorse has in any way mangled the tracks: if anyting, the exact opposite! :D
quote:
I may add then to my NWN module in place of the current UW songs I am using.
That'd be really cool! See the "readme-midis.txt" I've put with the files for credits info. I needn't be credited, since I'm just distributing them: Fat Man and DarkHorse Pterid do :)
quote:
Just make sure credit is given on your site and copyright acknowledged.
Yeah, I'm a bit of a stickler for that myself, because I know that it matters so very much to artists.
It's kindof one of the reasons that all my own hobbyist stuff is usually explicitly released to the public domain: I feel putting my own terms on it will get in the way of protecting the rights of the things that I built upon. So I draw clear lines between "My Work" and "Other People's Stuff", and make sure that users know how to respect the rights of those Other People when they make use of My Stuff :)
Though admittedly, the more important reason is to set free my code-children, rather than shackle them with licensing ([rant]viral GPL...[/rant]).
I'd upload a zip of the unmodified midis, but I'm better off pointing to the place I got them from, which seems to still be alive and well:
http://go.to/gamemids
Direct link to the page with the files on:
http://www.mirsoft.info/gamemids-archive.php?&inside_link=1&selection=85
Strange thing is that they're crediting Dan Schmidt with the UW2 music, and George Alistair Sanger (Fat Man) and David Govett with UW1. Now, I woulda sworn blind that UW2 was Fat Man, too, but now I'm going to have to recheck the credits to make sure I haven't made a /big/ mistake there...
[edit]How wrong could I have been!? The gamemids site is completely correct, and Dan Schmidt and John Blackley did all the UW2 music: the Fat Man is not mentioned anywhere. I'm redfacedly updating my readme now...[/edit]
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Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:06 am |
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DarkHorse Pterid
Village Dweller
Joined: 21 Mar 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Cambridge/UK |
Hi chaps. :) I just stumbled across this page.
Just to say that if you think it's worthwhile having any other midi files tweaked in a similar way, I've lots of time in the next few weeks to do so.
--Lee "DHP" |
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Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:02 am |
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Farrier
Village Dweller
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 10
Location: London, UK. |
Wow, so Google is pretty darn fast, then!
And thanks for the offer, but I'm not going to pester you until I know for sure that I'll get it finished: I'd hate to ask you to do stuff that will be wasted.
Of course, other UW2 remakes might disagree that it's wasted, even if I fail to finish mine!
(And by the way, did I mention lately that you rock? :)
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Mon Mar 21, 2005 3:34 am |
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Withstand the Fury
Head Merchant
Joined: 21 Jul 2003
Posts: 50
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by DarkHorse Pterid
Hi chaps. I just stumbled across this page.
Just to say that if you think it's worthwhile having any other midi files tweaked in a similar way, I've lots of time in the next few weeks to do so.
--Lee "DHP"
I've actually got the MIDIs for a number of songs from Ultima 7, Serpent Isle, and UW1 and 2. I'm looking not so much to tweak them as to largely overhaul them - I'd like to change the instrument voices if possible to bring the overall sound quality up the standards of a modern RPG soundtrack.
If you'd be interested, I can send you a link to a RAR of all the MIDIs that need retooling. If not, well...thank you at least for hearing me out!
Great work on the UW2 songs Farrier is using, by the way! Excellent!
WtFD
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Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:58 am |
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