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.Twinfalls
Guest
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[quote="Dhruin"]Because "people" aren't the same thing as RPGDot staff.
No kidding. Hence Seven's comment being 'dumbassed'.
But you have a large number of posters here making biased assumptions - about the Codex being biased. The majority of the responses on the first page are 'This review is BS, the Codex is biased!!'.
quote:
As for "addressing this, a most glaring truth", have a read through the rest of the thread for my comments.
You haven't addressed it. You have stated:
quote:
On the article itself. I enjoyed it and very much agree with many of the points. I think some OB's better points were overlooked or dismissed, which makes it somewhat unbalanced and the developer quote technique is interesting - overall it's more of an editorial than review. Before someone jumps on me, I don't have a problem with a site balancing the ledger against the wave of unremittingly over the top reviews from major sites, so overall, a thumbs up.
Which does not mention the issue. A negative review from the Codex is hollered about as 'biased', while RPGdot posters do not mete out the same bashing to any of the umpteen orgasmic "omigosh it's the perfectest game evar!" reviews you've linked to.
Even your introduction has quite a touch of prejudice, viz "The cynical outlook isn't a surprise". Dhruin, when have you prefaced a commercial review with "Their stupidly gushing outlook isn't a surprise...", hmm? |
Wed Apr 26, 2006 9:43 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
Before we start another pointless Dot/Codex flame war, may I point out 2 things. First, our own reviewer Rendelius was not totally glowing about the game either, and many of us, myself included, had positive things to say about the Codex review. Afterall, when it comes to attacking the MAN, you guys have attacked me mecilessly for merely doing an assigned job!!
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:01 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by .Twinfalls
No kidding. Hence Seven's comment being 'dumbassed'.
Hence my original post to which you replied, remember? Or am I nor entitled to ask why someone is raising RPGDot staff for no good reason?
quote:
But you have a large number of posters here making biased assumptions - about the Codex being biased. The majority of the responses on the first page are 'This review is BS, the Codex is biased!!'.
We have an open comments system and anyone and everyone is invited to comment - just as you, Seven, VD and others have. By posting here, you are part of this community. There is a diverse range of opinions and some of them obviously think the Codex is biased, which is no fault of mine or this site's. I report Codex articles and any reader forms their own opinion.
I can certainly find plenty of examples where RPG Codex readers bash RPGDot and I don't see VD or Saint leaping to our defence every time - and it's not their responsibility to do so. Same goes for this. VD is perfectly capable of defending himself and doesn't need me jumping to it.
quote:
As for "addressing this, a most glaring truth", have a read through the rest of the thread for my comments.
You haven't addressed it.
So, I don't have a problem with a site balancing the ledger against the wave of unremittingly over the top reviews from major sites doesn't acknowledge the pro-biased reviews out there?
quote:
A negative review from the Codex is hollered about as 'biased', while RPGdot posters do not mete out the same bashing to any of the umpteen orgasmic "omigosh it's the perfectest game evar!" reviews you've linked to.
Please. Hollering? Some like the article, some don't - it's hardly hollering. It's definitely not one sided. Readers have also commented on the "perfect" reviews - have a look through the old news comments.
quote:
Even your introduction has quite a touch of prejudice, viz "The cynical outlook isn't a surprise". Dhruin, when have you prefaced a commercial review with "Their stupidly gushing outlook isn't a surprise...", hmm?
I wouldn't use that wording and I don't comment often but I do on occasion. Oblivion interviews are pretty repetitive and I started to provide a little commentary on some to assist readers.
As an aside, let me quote Seven.
quote:
...I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said regarding the review, but I do take issue with you targeting this review for critique when there are others that are far more imbalanced...
Even some Codex readers believe there is a bias - they just think it's fair to "even up the ledger". And please don't tell me Seven's comments have anything to do with RPGDot. Seems the same at both sites to me - how about you rail against Seven?
That's enough. I like the article as I said, although I think the format suits an op-ed piece more than a review. You really should be looking to debate with someone who actually disagrees.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:25 am |
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.Twinfalls
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
There is a diverse range of opinions and some of them obviously think the Codex is biased, which is no fault of mine or this site's.
Well, perhaps prefacing a Codex review with the comment:
quote:
The cynical outlook isn't a surprise
- when other reviews don't get similar treatment, may well contribute to the prejudicial view that the Codex is 'biased'.
I agree though, that is enough. Your other points are taken.
Just on the Codex, let me make one last point, which is not a generalisation about the RPGdot staff or community (yes I am one of the latter too).
The Codex is 'biased'. It is biased against dumbing down. It is biased against lying, rubbish hype. Against the removal of role playing from what are dubbed 'RPGs'.
The Codex is biased towards games with real choices and real consequences. Towards games which treat the player as intelligent adults, not hellspawn mallrats. Towards games which genuinely try to keep the genre alive, or even move it forward with new ideas (rather than 'streamlining' and 'mainstreaming').
And yes, the Codex has a culture of cynicism, raw language, even vitriol. But who can blame them? Look at what has happened to RPGs since the late 90s. Witness what Daggerfall has become with Oblivion for example.
If this is the type of 'bias' which puts people off reading the Codex, then, well, perhaps those people don't deserve real RPGs in their lives anyway. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 10:41 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Perhaps I shouldn't have prefaced the newsbit in quite that way. I'm sure you will note I did make other positive comments. Criticism accepted in that respect.
quote:
The Codex is biased towards games with real choices and real consequences. Towards games which treat the player as intelligent adults, not hellspawn mallrats. Towards games which genuinely try to keep the genre alive, or even move it forward with new ideas (rather than 'streamlining' and 'mainstreaming').
And yes, the Codex has a culture of cynicism, raw language, even vitriol. But who can blame them? Look at what has happened to RPGs since the late 90s. Witness what Daggerfall has become with Oblivion for example.
If this is the type of 'bias' which puts people off reading the Codex, then, well, perhaps those people don't deserve real RPGs in their lives anyway.
We also have readers who feel the same - some are even active in both communities. On the other hand, some of them don't agree with that vitriol or language or whatever - hence we have our different approaches.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 11:32 am |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
As for the 'prefacing' of reviews, I find that each editor (or news poster) adds their own interpretation of what they have read, so you will see things like 'overly rave' or 'harshly critical' or whatever put there.
To me, a Codex piece being cynical is about as surprising as finding a Christian-view inerpretation at CCCR 
I really liked the *article* - because I do very much agree that it isn't really a review.
Mike
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Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:29 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
As I am not a part of the RPGDot staff anymore, Twinfalls, take this as a personal comment from my side, and nothing else:
RPGCodex isn't biased. For some reason the site has become religious over the last few years. I has adopted the elitism of a fanatical small religious group that thinks it has found the truth. And as these groups tend to behave, they become aggressive, rude and ill-behaved in order to defend themselves against, like RPGCodex calls them, "the mass of dumb fuckhead kiddie gamers". While I personally honor some points of view RPGCodex shares, my respect for the style in which they are presented is zero.
Practical example: The RPGCodex newsbit about the review at eXeTreMe GamerZ. We all agree it is a badly written, really useless review. Now here are some quotes from the newsbit(!), which also cites the complete review:
"Warning: The content of the following site may completely erase your intelligence"
"...has posted the most idiotic game review I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen some really bad shit."
"Unbelievable. It's like a trip to a zoo."
Apart from the fact that I feel this review isn't even newsworthy - the comments made by VD are extremely disrespectful and personal attacks that have no justification whatsoever in a newsbit. But they clearly show which direction RPGCodex has taken. And while I can't verify my suspicion that this newsbit wouldn't have been posted would it not have been about Oblivion, I think this assumption fits well with my general observations in regards to RPGCodex. I consider it a pity, because, as I said, some points RPGCodex makes about the direction the genre takes are valid, but they are buried under tons of shit, if you ask me.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 12:48 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
RPGCodex is looking for validation that there has been too much positive bias in the media. So you have it. Yes there is positive bias - but I also think alot of reviewers are genuinely taken by the "newbie shine" of Oblivion and havent (yet) let the game design faults aggrevate them.
For the record - I've played about 80 hours of it. Last night at 4:30AM I finished the main quest. The real thorn in the side of Oblivion is the insipid hand holding: "you should now proceed to do this..." Its out of control babysitting - a terrible artifact of the console focus of Oblivion. Bethesda is clearly assuming the console users are near brain death. Maybe so. All other criticisms are totally overshadowed by this in my opinion. The persuasion system? Not even close. 80 hours and I never used it. See? I'm NOT a raving fanboi - but I do think overall it is a great game - one of the best games ever made. Maybe the best despite its faults.
In all honesty the Codex review is not a bad review - its just every 10 lines or so it makes some obnoxious remark the reminds the reader that they are really reading "Why Oblivi0n is teh suck and we told u so!!111 LOL ROFLMAO I got teh uber skillz boi".
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"For Innos!" |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:34 pm |
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VDweller
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 41
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quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
Practical example: The RPGCodex newsbit about the review at eXeTreMe GamerZ. We all agree it is a badly written, really useless review. Now here are some quotes...
If we all agree that it's a really useless and badly written review, why do you complain about my comments? Because it's wrong to openly state that a stupid review is actually stupid?
quote:
Apart from the fact that I feel this review isn't even newsworthy - the comments made by VD are extremely disrespectful and personal attacks that have no justification whatsoever in a newsbit.
In your opinion.
quote:
And while I can't verify my suspicion that this newsbit wouldn't have been posted would it not have been about Oblivion...
You are wrong. I hope you will take my word for it, if not, I'll be glad to post a few links for you. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:41 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
...I don't know what the reading comprehension standards are to be a staffer at RPG Dot...
What the hell do RPGDot staffers have to do with anything, Seven? Stick to your argument rather than targeting the site for no reason. That's what the Codex proclaims, right? They debate the issue rather than the man? Do it.
Okay fine, he's not on staff here, BTW, why the hell does he have RPG Dot Logo?
As for the comment, well it's more from fustration than from wanting to target RPG Dot, I mean after you ask a well worded question like 3 or 4 times and all you get is the run around wouldn't you get fustrated - at a certain point it's easier to insult some one for being stupid than to try and debate with them. In case you didn't know, I do have a lot of respect for you and the work you do, so if you want an apology you've got it. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:45 pm |
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VDweller
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 41
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quote:
Originally posted by ToddMcF2002
RPGCodex is looking for validation that there has been too much positive bias in the media.
I wasn't thinking of what the media is saying about Oblivion when I wrote my review. I presented MY opinion, unaffected by other reviews, and reflecting MY own experience with the game.
quote:
Bethesda is clearly assuming the console users are near brain death. ... but I do think overall it is a great game - one of the best games ever made.
I find it VERY hard to understand how a game made for, in your own words, brain dead people is a great game, and even one of the best games ever made.
quote:
In all honesty the Codex review is not a bad review - its just every 10 lines or so it makes some obnoxious remark the reminds the reader that they are really reading "Why Oblivi0n is teh suck and we told u so!!111 LOL ROFLMAO I got teh uber skillz boi".
More likely, you are having doubts about overall qualities of the game, and the review brought those doubts up, despite your attempts to convince yourself that it's one of the best games ever made. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:51 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
quote:
Originally posted by VDweller
If we all agree that it's a really useless and badly written review, why do you complain about my comments? Because it's wrong to openly state that a stupid review is actually stupid?
Yes, you got it.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 1:59 pm |
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VDweller
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 03 Jul 2005
Posts: 41
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quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
What I meant is that it seems unfair to rip the quotes out of the original context and to not include links to the source material.
There's no reason not to trust you, of course, but for all we know, you might theoretically have made up every single quote.
If I did, it would have been pointed out immediately by fans at the TES forums.
quote:
Also, since there are no links to the sources... when were the quotes originally published? Some of the quotes you used could be pre-Arena, pre-Daggerfall, pre-Morrowind etc.
Some of the quotes could also have been posted in a totally different context. Maybe the interview question was... 'What would [fill in the blank] be like in an ideal RPG?' or 'If you had no budget and schedule limitations for Oblivion then what would [fill in the blank again] be like?'
How do we know that some of these quotes are even related to Oblivion?
All quotes are well known to fans who followed the development closely. All quotes are related to Oblivion and are not answers to hypothetical questions. You can either take my word for it, google the quotes and see what comes up, or ask me to post the links, and I will do so.
quote:
I think it would be reasonably easy to tear any game to pieces with the method you applied. Grab some random dev quotes from who-knows-when and who-cares-what-context ...
So, first a suspicion, and now it's already a method? Anyway, it's not the case here.
quote:
You are subjecting Bethesda to ridicule by bringing up stuff they supposedly once said (though only you know when or why or in what context).
That's not fair in my opinion.
The quotes are legit and relevant. If you want me to post the links, just say so.
quote:
Well, every paragraph is starting with a reference to the quote and then pretty much revolving around the quote's topic. Not sure how I'm making up shit *shrug*.
Because each quote is related to the topic. Duh! |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:09 pm |
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ToddMcF2002
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 10 Jan 2005
Posts: 317
Location: Boston MA |
quote:
Originally posted by VDweller
I find it VERY hard to understand how a game made for, in your own words, brain dead people is a great game, and even one of the best games ever made.
I said it was the biggest fault of the game. I could go on for days about all the great things about Oblivion. I won't bore you though.
quote:
Originally posted by VDweller
More likely, you are having doubts about overall qualities of the game, and the review brought those doubts up, despite your attempts to convince yourself that it's one of the best games ever made.
Or.. when you published it I was ~50 hours into the game and I had formed my own opinions. Many of your criticisms had me nodding in agreement. Of course your article lacked balance since you failed to point out any real positive attributes for Oblivion? There arent any??? Combat, Graphics, Immersion, Cinematic quality Plot, Voice acting, Creative design, Architecture and um.... FUN? I might bore you with accolades if I get on a roll. All games have pros and cons. Its just not UBER COOL for Codex to discuss the pros of... well... anything?
_________________
"For Innos!" |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:18 pm |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by VDweller
All quotes are well known to fans who followed the development closely. All quotes are related to Oblivion and are not answers to hypothetical questions. You can either take my word for it, google the quotes and see what comes up, or ask me to post the links, and I will do so.
I agree with you - even if you can't cite the exact source off-hand, most gamers will draw immediate context around virtually all of the quotes. They are almost as much 'generic ideas from Bethesda' as specific quotes.
Personally I like the 'method' - as it does highlight the faults. I think many of us do it mentally when a game is disappointing - like Dungeon Lords or Deus Ex Invisible War ... we recall all of the reasons the devs gave us that it would rock our world as we clench our teeth while playing.
Mike
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Wed Apr 26, 2006 2:19 pm |
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