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Whailor
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 423
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
There's a big misconception about Lee and paladins.
Lee does NOT HATE paladins, or Hagen personally.
Lee DOES HATE many members of the king's court, who murdered the queen and framed him, so that he was sentenced. Lee is a honest, straight person in his beliefs and this was a really low blow against him, what he hates. And it's pretty clear that Hagen is not involved in that scheme in any way. He may be tad idealisting and arrogant in a way (holier-then-thou attitude), but if Hagen would have known about such plan, to kill the queen and frame Lee, he would have intervened for sure.
Lee does NOT LIKE paladins and mercenaries in G2 simply due to the situation. They're two different sides on different sides of the fence. In Lee's eyes Hagen and his men are on his way to the king and are a hindrance, but at the same time, they're the 'necessary evil' - they have the only ship. Lee doesn't like militia of Khorinis, most likely he simply finds them disgusting, as these are just a 'drones' doing what officers tell them to do, and it's quite clear that the leadership of the Khorinis is pretty corrupt. So, he basically considers the militia as a puppet under the corrupt goverment, an organisation not worth much. He may like paladins somewhat less because the paladins are in the city and bolster their ranks with this corrupt militia, while knowing that they're corrupt, but it's obvious to both Lee and Hagen and besides, they both have more pressing matters, of the size of the whole kingdom, instead of dealing with some little corrupt organisation on some little island.
So yes, Lee does not like the current situation, neither the force which is against his way to freedom, that's the paladins + militia, but he doesn't hate them directly, at least not the paladins. May not think much of them, but there's no hate. Hagen on his own side does respect Lee, although he does not stand for the people around Lee. To him, these are just the usual convicts, "sinners in the eye of Innos" and should rightly be in prison. That's why he also tells that he is ready to grant absolution to Lee, but only to Lee, and get him alone to the mainland. And Lee, his hate, the real hate, is aimed much higher then Khorinis, and to totally different direction when compared to paladins and Hagen, as the paladins and Hagen were not a part of his imprisonment. I suppose that the only person whom Lee could really hate on Khorinis would be the judge, but it is highly unlikely that a judge of some small island had any part in the trial of a great general like Lee. Most obviously Lee was sentenced in the capital city of Myrtana, in king's court and directly, and then sent to the Khorinis penal colony. Lee was too big of a figure to be sentenced, or even kept under arrest, on some small island by some small clerks.
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Been there, done that . . . |
Fri Apr 01, 2005 11:36 am |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Also, if you play mercenary you get to hear a little about his disgust towards the Judge in town, where the real corruption in Khorinis lies. I believe there is real hatred towards him, because he says that the Judge doesn't deserve to only die, but should suffer for all he has done. Whether or not the Judge took part in Lee's framing(or knew about it) is uncertain, but imo he didn't - Lee just can't stand political corruption/dishonesty at all. At least not one who abuses power the way the Judge does.
Lee is a great guy, but I fear all the time in the colony may have affected him, because the last thing you hear in G2 is that he wants revenge, not only on the people who framed him, but also the King himself.. who, imo, had nothing to do with it, and had to punish Lee because the evidence were all pointing towards him. The law is the law for anyone, and the King had to uphold it no matter what.
Oh well, we'll see in G3.  |
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Fri Apr 01, 2005 1:32 pm |
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necromancerya
Village Dweller
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 17
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Lee was the General of a legion of knights. But if you take Lee's letter to hagen then Hagen agrees to let only Lee away, but Lee doesn't agree with that, but if our hero asks him to come aboard he doesn't give a shit about his men. |
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Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:39 pm |
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necromancerya
Village Dweller
Joined: 03 Apr 2005
Posts: 17
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Lee was the General of a legion of knights. But if you take Lee's letter to hagen then Hagen agrees to let only Lee away, but Lee doesn't agree with that, but if our hero asks him to come aboard he doesn't give a shit about his men. |
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Thu Apr 07, 2005 5:54 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
quote:
Originally posted by necromancerya
Lee was the General of a legion of knights. But if you take Lee's letter to hagen then Hagen agrees to let only Lee away, but Lee doesn't agree with that, but if our hero asks him to come aboard he doesn't give a shit about his men.
Yea this seems a bit odd to me also.
By the way if we think how the chain of command works..
we can pretty much assume that the order of paladins takes orders from church of innos, ie brotherhood of fire ie the fire mages.
But they will also serve king DIRECTLY whenever he needs them.So it is a bit difficult to understand their position, kind of separete unit in the army.On the otherhand its quite hard to understand this as the best warriors from the army become knights and then paladins...
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:55 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
That's just it. I think the Paladin Order is a stand-alone part of the army, who doesn't really have any superiors, like the old Templar order. The old Templare order in Europe answered to their countries' kings, sort of, but mostly to the Pope. At the end they were too powerful and only answered to the Pope himself, so he had to disolve the whole Order because they had so much power in so many countries. They were almost a kingdom of their own, and an army of their own.
I feel the order of the Paladins is much the same way. They don't take orders on a daily basis from the king or the magicians, but whenever the uber mage or the king himself has an important order, he can come to them with it.
Lee was directly under the king though, afaik. He was a personal friend of Lord Hagen and had fought in different wars with him, that's why Hagen was willing to take him with him on his ship. Hagen knew that Lee was really honorable, and wasn't guilty of the crime he became a prisoner for, but didn't want the rest of Lees' men because they were proven criminals(most of them at least). |
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Fri Apr 08, 2005 10:05 pm |
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Black_Rider
Village Dweller
Joined: 14 Apr 2005
Posts: 23
Location: Liverpool |
Sorry to bring this matter up after so long time...
But...
..as you proceed through the game (g1) you come upon various characters...the situation of Lee in the barrier was Leader of the mercenaries...whom their main role was to protect the water mages and the ore mount.....they didn't give a shit about the rogues ...it was as if it was a necesary evil being with them....and this comes through in g2 ...most of the rogues turned to bandits after the barrier only few followed Lee when he served the Landowner....and as we see many of the mercenaries had recognized Lee as a great warrior ....he had gained the trust of his men (reminds the gladiator  )...that's why he didn't accept Hagen's offer to grant absolution only to him....and not his men. (btw i havent yet played the addon yet) Also we see that the faction of the water mages is in fact a reality (not only in the barrier)..so the servant's of Adanos whhic he was the brother of Innos... they were bound to have their warriors as well....as was the Order Of Paladins the warriors of Innos... i was wondering if Lee had a connection with the Water Mages...while he was in the mainland
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"It is the color of a bleached skull, his flesh; and the long hair which flows below his shoulders is milk-white. From the tapering, beautiful head stare two slanting eyes, crimson and moody, and from the loose sleeves of his black gown emerge two slender hands, also the color of bone." |
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Thu Apr 14, 2005 7:41 pm |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
If so he should've gone to Vatras in the city.
Still, you have a valid point, never thought about the fact that he might have some sort of connection to the water mages. All in all, though, I still believe the people of the Old Camp allied because of their current situation and needs, not former alliances of any kind. |
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Tue Apr 19, 2005 6:22 pm |
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Kaboodleschmitt
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 19 Jun 2004
Posts: 101
Location: Canada |
I agree, I don't think Lee was "connected" with any mages, he was just aiding them because (in his eyes) it was the only 'sane' way to get out of the colony, the fire mages weren't even trying to get out, and the guru's... Well, everyone thought they were a little... Strange (including me).
I think Lee does whatever he has to to get back at those who imprisoned him, I must say, I'd probably do the same thing; imagine being locked up in this tiny "colony" with a whole bunch of criminals and wild aimals and orcs for years? I think the driving motivation for anyone after all that would be REVENGE, just like Lee's is.
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My Website........My DA Fansite
..............Gothic 2.............. |
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Fri Apr 22, 2005 5:13 am |
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cptmaxon
High Emperor
Joined: 19 Jun 2003
Posts: 557
Location: Israel |
I think it's obvious that fire mages have on the scene auhtority on the paladins, as in if you play a fire mage and want to commander the boat, you just go to the boat and talk to the guards saying you know the will of innos, and they leave and let you board, so basically you just countermanded the orders hagen given them and to an extent the orders of the king.
as for lee you take alot of the merc with you on the final voyage, torlof, lares, gorn, bennet alot of them are top ranking ppl in lee's mercs so he might have come just because they were there.
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"We're still flying"
"it's not much"
"It's enough" |
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Fri Apr 22, 2005 11:50 am |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Completely agree with the revenge thing. I would be seeking vengance above all as well after going through what Lee has gone through.
Good point about the fire mage way to get the boat. Didn't think about that, but it is certainly true - he would not be able to get the boat if he didn't have any authority over the Paladins guarding it. |
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Sun Apr 24, 2005 8:25 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
quote:
Originally posted by cptmaxon
I think it's obvious that fire mages have on the scene auhtority on the paladins, as in if you play a fire mage and want to commander the boat, you just go to the boat and talk to the guards saying you know the will of innos, and they leave and let you board, so basically you just countermanded the orders hagen given them and to an extent the orders of the king.
as for lee you take alot of the merc with you on the final voyage, torlof, lares, gorn, bennet alot of them are top ranking ppl in lee's mercs so he might have come just because they were there.
Well thought!
Also what supports your clever conclusion is the fact that paladins and mages work together.Do you guys remember the paladin(sergei) inside the monestary? He took direct orders from Pyrokar to escort us to pass.
An other thing which occured to my mind is when hero is in the colony world, many paladins like Marcos treat him like he has authority over them.
quote:
Sorry to bring this matter up after so long time...
likewise
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:41 am |
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Kamahl
King of Spam
Joined: 29 Apr 2005
Posts: 1668
Location: Slovenia-Ljubljana |
isnt there are book about this in the game
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Destroy the dark side, we will
De duistere zijde vernietigen, we zullen
Uničili temno stran, bomo mi
die dunkle Seite zerstören, wir sollen |
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Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:58 am |
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Maylander
High Emperor
Joined: 22 Mar 2002
Posts: 1712
Location: Norway |
Not this in particular, but a few books mention some of it every now and then. I'm hoping for G3 to give all the answers, or at least PB answering them in interviews after G3 is released. It would drive me nuts to never get to know all this, hehe. |
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Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:22 pm |
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Dez
King of the Realms
Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 455
Location: Fortress of Tell Halaf |
I agree.
There must be a decent library in the mainland, where one could dig all the answers.I'll hope that there are a lot more books for us to read in Gothic 3!
Oh mighty Piranhas please grant us the answers for the sake of our mental health!
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The focused mind can pierce through stone |
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Sun Jun 19, 2005 10:34 pm |
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