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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis |
| Why can't I enjoy the Gothic games? |
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I keep trying to get into these games and never get very far before utter boredom sets in. I've played almost every crpg out there to completion but Gothic is missing something. I'm going to list a few ideas about what I think might be the problem and let Gothic fans add their input. I'd love to find out what you folks get out of the game and why you love it.
I've played and completed 100s of crpgs including: All the Might and Magic, Ultima, Wizardry series. Fallout 1-2, Arena-Morrowind, Amberstar-Albion, MC1-3, etc. The list of games that I started but didn't finish include: Realms of Arkania series, Darklands, Knights of Legend. I've also played most of the non-rogue shareware crpgs including: Aethra Chronicles, Excelsior, Jeff Vogel's games, etc. The only Vogel game I hated was Nethergate.
Here is a list of reasons that I think stops me from enjoying Gothic:
1. I enjoy playing mages best. I like wielding magic over weapons because magic seems more fantastic. Wielding a sword or mace could be done in real life. Throwing a fireball or teleporting can't. Gothic(s) almost force characters to focus on weapon-based combat to survive.
2. I like lots of class choices and the illusion of skill freedom. Gothic(s) seem to have 3 classes. Melee Fighter, Ranged Fighter, and Mage. There are a few thieving options but you can't play the game as a thief. Combat is very tough and unavoidable. Playing anything but a straight mercenary or paladin is almost impossible. You also have to focus on a particular attribute almost exclusively if you want to finish the game. If you try to create a jack of all trades character, you will die.
3. The story loses a lot in translation. I think this might be the biggest obstacle. I never care for ANY of the NPC's in a Gothic game. My own character is chosen for me so relating well to the various NPCs is vital. Understand that I never got very far in either of the games so there may be memorable npcs that I never met.
Those are the biggies. One thing that stands out to me is that I can never become immersed in the game. I don't relate to a character that I didn't create and can't be the class I enjoy the most from the beginning of the game. I think this allows for boredom to set in quickly. Gothic only sold about 200,000 copies in the US but did outstanding in Europe. Maybe the impatience of the American psyche does me in. Gothic takes quite a while for the plot and story to unfold. By the time it does, I've already stopped playing.
In Gothic 1, I never got much past the new camp in 3 tries of playing the game. In Gothic 2, I generally complete most of the quests around the first town and get bored when I get forced into choosing a class. Wolf number 56 is generally about where I drop the game and uninstall.
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Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:02 pm |
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Uriziel
Grand Mage
Joined: 17 May 2002
Posts: 735
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| Re: Why can't I enjoy the Gothic games? |
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quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
Here is a list of reasons that I think stops me from enjoying Gothic:
1. I enjoy playing mages best. I like wielding magic over weapons because magic seems more fantastic. Wielding a sword or mace could be done in real life. Throwing a fireball or teleporting can't. Gothic(s) almost force characters to focus on weapon-based combat to survive.
Gothic is a hostile world and it is unreasonable to think you are BORN as a powerful mage. So to find a teacher you have to survive until you can be trained.
quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
2. I like lots of class choices and the illusion of skill freedom. Gothic(s) seem to have 3 classes. Melee Fighter, Ranged Fighter, and Mage. There are a few thieving options but you can't play the game as a thief. Combat is very tough and unavoidable. Playing anything but a straight mercenary or paladin is almost impossible. You also have to focus on a particular attribute almost exclusively if you want to finish the game. If you try to create a jack of all trades character, you will die.
Of course the combat is tough, and each class must specialize to be affective. I don't want a game I click and watch the fight happen. I want to be involved in every swing/shot or fireball. How many world class atheles you know of that play every sport equally well? Ummmm....none. Of course you must specialize and hone your skills.
quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
3. The story loses a lot in translation. I think this might be the biggest obstacle. I never care for ANY of the NPC's in a Gothic game. My own character is chosen for me so relating well to the various NPCs is vital. Understand that I never got very far in either of the games so there may be memorable npcs that I never met.
If you have not completed the game(s) then you have truly missed out on some good NPC "friends", like Gorn, Milten and Diego in G1. You say your character is already chosen for you, but that is simply not true. YOU must develop your character as you see fit. If you mean you can't give him a mustache or different hair, then you are right. But I could not giva sh!t less what the character looks like.......to each his own.
quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
Those are the biggies. One thing that stands out to me is that I can never become immersed in the game. I don't relate to a character that I didn't create and can't be the class I enjoy the most from the beginning of the game. I think this allows for boredom to set in quickly. Gothic only sold about 200,000 copies in the US but did outstanding in Europe. Maybe the impatience of the American psyche does me in. Gothic takes quite a while for the plot and story to unfold. By the time it does, I've already stopped playing.
Gothic was simply not advertised in the USA. If it were'nt for chat on a filesharing program, I would have missed out on the best game made. It sounds to me like you expect a game to be simple. Something where you are UBERMAGE from the start without any challenges.......to each his own.
quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
In Gothic 1, I never got much past the new camp in 3 tries of playing the game. In Gothic 2, I generally complete most of the quests around the first town and get bored when I get forced into choosing a class. Wolf number 56 is generally about where I drop the game and uninstall.
The Gothic series of games is simply different. The devs allow you to get your butt kicked repeatedly until you learn a way around the obstacle. You can wander off into certain death.....which is much like real life. When I first played Gothic, I absolutely hated it because I was getting my butt handed to me after every reload. Then I started to think......how can I get past this obstacle, or should I even face it right now. Then I started to see the beauty of the game design. You can make subtle choices that greatly effect how you will progress. I know the game well enough now I rarely see a reload screen.....unless I reload to try another way to do something. And trust me, there are many ways to accomplish anything in Gothic. You can do it the hard way, or find the easy way. And I still find new things everytime i play.
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Chris: Dad, what's the blow-hole for?
Peter: I'll tell you what it's not for, son. And when I do, you'll understand why I can never go back to Sea World. |
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Wed Oct 26, 2005 3:49 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
Well, as Uriziel said... to each their own. If you're not comfortable with the way a game is working, trying to like it probably won't help.
I, for instance, had similar problems with the Baldur's Gate games... though I'm not a huge fan of a) party-based CRPGs, b) isometric CRPGs and c) round-based combat in general, I still had played enough games of the sort I liked despite these features. Many of my friends told wondrous things about BG so I bought both games. I played BG1 for a few days, but I became bored rather quickly... couldn't empathize with anybody, found the story and characters too generic, etc. I finally ditched the game to play its successor, but it wasn't any different - the game bored me to no end after a short while. It was too... 'American' for my taste. Generic characters, generic story, like in some generic US TV soap.
The same goes for Gothic, of course. Just like every other game it's not for everybody. I found the setting of at least G1 rather original, the same goes for the characters - but with the gritty backdrop and political incorrectness the game is very 'European' which might explain your not being able to empathize.
The rather mediocre voice acting of the English language versions is another handicap. For instance, the voices and behavior of several of the G1 NPCs in the original (German) version evoked strong reactions from me: Diego, the first person you can talk to, evoked both distrust and hope, due to superb voice acting and lines... a great start. Old Camp enforcer Jackal, on the other hand, sounded dangerously suave... I was both fascinated and terrified by the slimeball the instant I met him. When I later heard both NPCs introduce themselves in the English language version, I was sorely disappointed... both Diego and Jackal sounded just like your avarage thug.
There are elements of the Gothic series I don't really like, either. Both games are getting too linear after the first chapter, at least for my taste. You cannot customize your character's looks... while I couldn't care less about stats I'm rather peevish when it comes to visual customization.
Overall, though, playing the Gothic games was a fresh experience for me: being released in unknown, hostile territory and meeting people I knew couldn't trust (yet hoped I could) made me cherish the friends I made over the course of the game all the more.
It's all a matter of taste and background, I guess. And sometimes a game has all elements one usually likes, yet still fails miserably because one just doesn't feel involved. *shrugs*
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Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:41 pm |
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Paul999999
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 302
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Cause you're an idiot?  |
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Wed Oct 26, 2005 7:29 pm |
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GothicGothicness
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 04 Oct 2003
Posts: 110
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quote:
I never care for ANY of the NPC's in a Gothic game
I think this is rather strange, if there is one thing Gothic has, it's a lot of good NPC's, unlike close to any other C-RPG I played, aside from Ultima 7 and Planescape Torment. Especially the Baldur's gate series, that most be the most overrated RPG-series of all time, I tried really hard to like it, but it's so generic and boring. Yet I know a lot of people love that, maybe Gothic is to you what BG is to me. |
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Wed Oct 26, 2005 8:57 pm |
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Paul999999
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 302
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Yes this is one of the best features of the game the NPCS they were so full of life and memorable Specially Diego from Gothic 1.
I was kidding with the idiot remark but now im not  |
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Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:12 pm |
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Drax
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 45
Location: Khorinis |
Gothic was the first rpg I ever played. Now, when I finished it I thought every rpg would be like it....how wrong was I! No other rpg ever lived up to my expectations. Ever!
I agree with JAZ : "It is more of a european based game" and not your usual "American" arcade rpg, were you are a pro from the second you start playing. Also in gothic you learn the combat naturally: what I mean is not in the game but outside the game (If that makes any sense???).
On a personal note: I think G3 will be ruined!!!! Pyrhana-Bytes will try to make it more american and arcade style.
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Scavengers...Thats what we call the Big Birds! |
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Thu Oct 27, 2005 12:44 am |
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Paul999999
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 302
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Sure hope not a game being a hit in europe and not in the U.S usually is a good thing  , let the mindless boring military shooters say in the U.S and will have awesome rpgs like Gothic 
Who cares if Gothic 1 didnt sell well in the U.S i loved it there to busy playing Halo and other crap related games  |
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Thu Oct 27, 2005 5:06 am |
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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis |
Thanks for the replies, everyone but Paul. Maybe it is the voice acting. I love tough games. I played the original Wizardry games and Might and Magic 1-2, which are ridiculously tough, so that's definitely not the cause. I will say that I enjoy party based games because it allows you to have different skills and classes in one play through. I loved Morrowind though but thought it was way too easy to powergame in. Did any of you play the English version of the game and are any of you from the United States? The voice acting is terrible. The translation is off too. Maybe that's the reason. I actually enjoyed the combat although fighting the same 4 creatures over and over and over and over got to be really monotonous. I'm still thinking the biggest obstacle was the lack of any real choice in the game as far as skills and character building go. Both games are also extremely linear which makes for easy QA but crappy role playing.
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'nut |
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Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:28 pm |
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Rordog
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 13 Feb 2004
Posts: 111
Location: kelowna |
If you consider when the gothics were made, just be happy they have full voice acting at all. Most games didn't even try then, or they would voice act a few main story characters and then cut out the rest, which makes for a fragmented experience.
Granted there is not a lot of monster variation, but I love how they throw some tough ones right into the mix making exploration more exciting and dangerous. So many games only present the hero with similar level monsters in one area and they progress as the game does. If you are not careful a snapper, or orc dog may just take you down when you are walking around, I love that.
The skill system could use more depth, but I really liked how your character visually improved his skills, instead of just doing the same old swing, but it suddenly can break through the opponent's defence.
I'll take crappy voice acting anyday (though gothic 1&2 english weren't crappy, just flat) over reading everyline of text. I am playing through NWN now cause I never got around to it before, and I have to say I despise hearing one line of speech then it cuts out and you have to read the rest of the conversation. It pulls you right out of your fantasy world.
Rordog
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Winning isn't everything it is the only thing! |
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Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:05 pm |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
I'm an American (from the south) and I loved both Gothic games. I am also a "old school" RPG player like crpgut. I played the early Ultimas, Bard's Tale I & III, M&M III, IV, V, Starfight, etc...
I did NOT think the voice acting was terrible. I'd say it was average in Gothic 2 and good in Gothic I. I also did not think that the translations of Gothic I were "off". They were ACE in my opinion. The language seemed very natural and very english -- even in the slang. In fact, when I first started playing the game I did not know it was originally made in Germany until I came to rpgdot.com and learned of it. Now I will admit that the 2nd one had a few "shaky" moments of translation -- but not #1.
So what do I love about the Gothics? More than anything its the feeling of exploration and freedom. Over the years I have learned that its not necessarily the "role playing" part of RPGs I have craved -- but the world simulation. I like managing an inventory, wandering around, speaking to people, finding new places, etc. If you wrap that up in decent story with good characters then you've definitely won me over. Finally, if there IS a deep character system its icing on the cake -- however -- I can deal with playing a pre-determined character (and in Gothic its not totally pre-determined) as long as the immersive world & story is there.
And the final thing that makes me love Gothic is purely a gameplay thing. I truly enjoy being able explore without boundaries or loading zones. There is something exhiliarting about standing on a hill in Gothic and looking over an expansive valley. You know that ANYWHERE you see in that valley you can reach and stay TOTALLY IN THE GAME. No loading zones, no interruptions, nothing to take you out of the experience. That is a great feeling.....
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All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:17 pm |
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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis |
I like character building and skill manipulation a great deal. That might be the big downer for me. I still don't find the writing nor voice acting to be anything special. I enjoy exploration probably more than anything, but Gothic limited how far you could travel around without spending serious time leveling. I remember, in Gothic 2, I was wandering around the first little town before doing any quests, killing some wolves and goblins. I entered another small cave and ended up being wiped out by an Orc warrior. This dude was really close to the starting town and was impossible to defeat. Big downer. Was it logical that an Orc might be in this cave? Yes. Was it fun having an impossible combat for a 1-3rd level character right near the beginning of the game? Not at all.
Thanks for the reply, Elkton.
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'nut |
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Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:04 pm |
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X-dANGEr
Unknown Destiny
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2383
Location: The X place |
Some great posts to comment in here.
What I really like in Gothic, is the fact that when I play, I feel like I am walking in an alive world. When I played other RPGs I really rairly saw an animal, tree or anything like that. While in Gothic, the atomosphiere seems too alive. And with those sound tracks.. And another time, it is just really great to be able to feel every second in every fight you make..
On the other hand, the one thing I don't like about Gothic, is the toggling function. I'd like it better if you just swing your sword and what it hits, it damages.. But that's another thing. The range fight system could use some improvement, but yet still, it is a great game. I feel like playing Gothic will ruin most of the other RPGs for you, but well, will let you enjoy the legand
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Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:06 pm |
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Bartacus
Il Buono
Joined: 24 May 2003
Posts: 4706
Location: Belgium Flemmish part |
Morrowind is for me, what gothic is for you crpgnut. You like to change a lot on your stats inventory, more armours and seperate pieces of it too perhaps, while I don't. You might like that written text so much, cause you're so used to it from playing all those other games perhaps, but I don't. I hated Morrowind at first, cause I thought I'd get a game with every conversation spoken out like in Gothic. Morrowind was deinstalled pretty quickly. I tried playing it again, but it's still and I think it will ever be a B-game(like B-movie) for me.
About your last remark -> orc in cave thing: Now that was exactly the others already posted about. The cool thing in Gothic is that you can allready meet those stronge creatures from day 1. What kinda fantasy world is it where you just face a stronger enemy, move a bit further and again a stronger enemy is seen. That would be way to linear for a game like Gothic and even Morrowind.
For me Elkston is correct about the voice acting -> good at Gothic 1(some major chars had the same voice) and a bit less in Gothic 2 (same as nr1, but also with a 'bad' Diego)
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Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:16 pm |
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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis |
@Bartacus. Yep I love Morrowind. I like having tons of choices in weapons, skills, quests, etc. The combat is less of a chore and to be honest, I prefer real-time combat to be quickly resolved. If it's not a tactical turn-based game then I just want to get the fights over with, preferably with magic.
I've been griping on the Oblivion forum because they're getting rid of several areas of choice so that they can focus on a few things and (supposedly) do them well. I'll still love Oblivion but taking away religions, house intrigue, and 25% of your skill choices isn't the way I was hoping the game would go. To me NPCs and questlines were the weakest aspects of Morrowind. They've dropped some things that they were strong in to address these issues (again supposedly).
G1 and G2 were EXTREMELY linear in the quests. You could explore everywhere outside but that didn't jazz me because you had to be really focused on your primary skill to survive. I've often thought of creating a super character in Gothic just so that I can see all of the story. My gripes are mostly about combat and the story but I haven't seen that much of the story because of the tedious (to me) skill system. If I maxed out all my skills at the beginning of the game, I could skip the boring combat and skill parts and just play through the story. I may do this just to be familiar with everyone for G3.
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'nut |
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Fri Oct 28, 2005 4:19 pm |
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