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plugh
Village Dweller
Joined: 05 Aug 2002
Posts: 14
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| Any party creation/optimization software available? |
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hi,
I found an excel spreadsheet to help with spell casters. Is there any utility available which helps optimize party selction (e.g best combination of race/profession, check that you have all spell books covered, etc)?
If not, I will happilly write such a program and would apperciate any input. What things do you check for/consider necessary when creating a party? any URLs also gratefully accepted. |
Mon Aug 05, 2002 1:36 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
http://www.geocities.com/jandrall/
is not bad.
but keep in mind: there is no *best* party in Wizardry games, nearly all parties are playable, some are easier to play, some need more "education", but all are fun.
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild= |
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Mon Aug 05, 2002 6:54 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
| Re: Any party creation/optimization software available? |
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quote:
Originally posted by plugh
hi,
I found an excel spreadsheet to help with spell casters. Is there any utility available which helps optimize party selction (e.g best combination of race/profession, check that you have all spell books covered, etc)?
If not, I will happilly write such a program and would apperciate any input. What things do you check for/consider necessary when creating a party? any URLs also gratefully accepted.
I think you'd have a difficult time with this since personal opinion would radically affect your recommendations. For instance, if the player wants the CoC, they'd have to have a faerie ninja. Since I didn't care about the CoC, I had little motivation for that race/profession combo. Along the same lines, defining "best" will be tough. I have always favored fast characters (I like to swing first), which means I often pick a less-than-optimum race with a better speed stat. Other players prefer to go with the statical optimums, which can be found from the chart on page 8 of the manual.
It's a similar situation with covering all the spellbooks. While my first winning party covered all the books, I made no effort to develop the magic skills of my hybrids, so I ended up terribly weak in alchemy and psionics. It didn't slow that party down at all. My second winning party grew up a little differently, so it was useful for them to cover all the spellbooks.
Last, how would you pick between a bard and gadgeteer? For that matter, players not using the last patch (1.2.4) might be interested in pickpocketing, which means they'd want a rogue. Post-patch, the rogue is nearly useless.
I think your idea is good, but implementation could be incredibly challenging. I hope I haven't rained on the parade for you. If nothing else, the above points could figure into your calculations. Besides, we'd miss the "help pick my party" discussions here... 
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 12:47 am |
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plugh
Village Dweller
Joined: 05 Aug 2002
Posts: 14
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OK, I won't aim to choose the perfect party, since we all agree that there isn't one. But what about a software tool which warns you of possible errors in your line up?
For instance, no pure fighter, or less than 3 'warrior' types (fighter, lord, ninja, samuri, etc), or you haven't covered one of the 4 spell books, or you have chosen a profession with a non-optimal race, or subtle stuff - like having 4 short range fighters, when only 3 can fit the front row?
Sure, some folks might want such a party, but they maybe simply overlooked something and would be grateful to have it pointed out.
Any point of such a program? And any boo-boos which you can think of?
I already made a start, by the way  |
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 7:30 am |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
No boos from here. i have seen many Wizardry newbies on this and other boards that had difficulties in creating a playable party. The output of such a program could be:
your party is easy/normal/hard to play
you are not covering the following spellbooks:
...
you missing the following important skills:
...
your mage/fighter balance is:
...
your party can be optimized with the following npcs:
On the other hand, i would never use such a program, because for me it is a major fun factor in rpgs to create and experiment with my very own parties. Sometimes, for example in Fallout, i even like to play with sub-optimal characters to increase the challenge.
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:17 am |
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Rhea
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 17 Jul 2002
Posts: 40
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I think your idea is interesting, but would be incredibly hard to implement, because everyone's idea of a good character would be different.
I can slaughter this game on Expert with two bishops and any combination of characters (though it's tough going early on). I've done it with a Faerie Ninja and two Faerie Bishops (got bored with the faeries by themselves, though - there's so little equipment they can use  ).
Take a samurai - some people want a sam who's a fighting machine, some want a magic user, some want a balance between the two.
And how do you account for folks who choose races or professions just so they can use a particular weapon down the line?
IMO, what works best is a site like Jandrall's, where the pros and cons of each class and the merits of different ways of developing the character are discussed (and there have been great discussions on various forums). Jandrall's is here:
http://www.geocities.com/jandrall/
For me, at least 80% of the fun of Wizardry is experimentation. And I didn't mind starting over, because usually I knew by Arnika how well a party was or wasn't working.
Edited to add: Oops! I forgot to add that there is a "best race" program based on Boscher's formula (Boscher's info is posted on Jandrall's site) on Spyder's site:
http://www.spydah.com/games/wiz8/articles/bestrace.asp
You put in the profession and what attributes you consider important, and it'll tell you what race is best suited to your needs. |
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 3:55 pm |
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otter
One of Us
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 1337
Location: Portland, OR |
When i started making smaller parties, i created a checklist on paper with the things i think a party should be able to do to make the game more easily survivable: Magic Screen, Armorplate, Missile Shield, Rest All, Heal All, Locks (inc K-K), Traps(inc D.T.), Pickpocket (even does some nice things with the newest patch), Element Shield, Soul Shield, Armormelt, Haste, Portal, Purify Air, Identify (inc Artifacts), Search (inc D.S.), Silence, Guardian Angel.
Another point of view is to create characters based upon the items you want to be able to use. If you take the example of weapon and armor lists for each Class and build them around that. (eg Faerie Ninja for the Cane, or Bishop for Mauler and D.E.). I usually give my FN two Shillelahs right away, and pump her Magic while her fighting pumps itself.
Or build a Bard for Hasting purposes, who switches to Fighter to use the really nice Armor. (or to Sam for the M. Blade) There's a big difference early in the game between Bards/Gads and Mana users--the Items cast at noticably higher levels. But later in the game, Berserking does more damage (as does having a big Sword bonus)... |
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Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:38 pm |
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Rhea
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 17 Jul 2002
Posts: 40
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^I do a similar thing with a very simple Excel spreadsheet.
I put race and class at the top, then under each character I list:
--Attributes and the order in which I want to develop them
--Skills and the order in which I want to develop them
--Ditto for magic - starting spells, what I want later (especially if you're developing hybrid fighters as well as pure casters)
--Special weapons, armor etc.
Usually I'll look at it, especially with the smaller parties, and think "Oops! forgot a lockpick person" or something similar. And just the process of writing it down helps me think it through. Of course, this might have been useless before I'd played for a few hours. |
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Wed Aug 07, 2002 12:11 am |
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plugh
Village Dweller
Joined: 05 Aug 2002
Posts: 14
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Ok, I spent a few hours over the weekend and knocked together a simple party checker program - see http://www.plugh.info/wiz_8/index.html
Once again, I agree that you can't pick the perfect party. I just wanted some simple checks in case I overlook anything & make it more difficult for myself than it needs to be.
Here's what it currently checks for; if I get any good suggestions, I will add them. This idea either dies here, or grows to become a classic, depending on your input ...
- more than 2 members of the same race - better to have a good mix.
- Party too small - less than 6.
- No pure fighter in party.
- Too few warriors" in party (minimum 3 Dracon, Lizardman or Dwarf).
- No magic user for each of the four spell books (separate reports for each book).
- Non-optimal race for each profession (as indicated in the strategy guide).
- Too many short range warriors (more than 3 - if they flank, they won't get so many points for using their short range skills in combat; they could be retrained for long range skills, but that seems a waste).
- more than 2 of any race or profession.
what else can I add? |
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Mon Aug 19, 2002 7:57 am |
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Rhea
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 17 Jul 2002
Posts: 40
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It looks really good, Plugh.
I have two thoughts, both related.
!) I've only taken a pure fighter once. It's far from the end of the world if you don't have one.
2) I have taken fighters many times who aren't Dracon, Lizard or Dwarves. Who I take depends on the kind of fighter (and since I don't do tanks per se, I don't always take one of the above).
Other than that, it looks fabulous. |
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Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:43 pm |
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otter
One of Us
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 1337
Location: Portland, OR |
"Party Too Small"? No such thing! To be truly complete, try to make the guide work for any size. In fact, i've found that for how i play, and to maximize character development and still have enough total damage so that combats don't take all day, three is just right.
Others have posted that they really like four, and some prefer to have all 8 slots full as much of the time as they can.
And then there's that one member who hasn't played anything but Duos for the last month or so... |
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Mon Aug 19, 2002 11:30 pm |
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plugh
Village Dweller
Joined: 05 Aug 2002
Posts: 14
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Like I said, it's horses for courses. Since this thing is probably of most use to newbies, it seems a fair enough warning.
However, rather than dispute that particular point, would you prefer if I , in general, provide an option not to display each warning, or to set thresholds?
Any & all of these warnign can be ignored by the player if he wishes, of course.
Is there any little 'gotcha' which you would like to warn (newbies) against? |
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Tue Aug 20, 2002 8:23 am |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
possible warnings for newbies:
not enough fighter characters
not enough characters with healing skills
no character with thief skills
no bard or gadgeteer
you are missing these important spells: Soul Shield, Elemental Shield ...
you are not able to wield the following armor, weapon: CoC, Great Sword,...
...
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild= |
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Tue Aug 20, 2002 11:07 am |
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plugh
Village Dweller
Joined: 05 Aug 2002
Posts: 14
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Thanks! that's eactly the sort of thing I am looking for
Posted: Tue Aug 20, 2002 12:07 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> not enough fighter characters
already done (I defined enough as 3. Should it be a suer selectable value?)
> not enough characters with healing skills
well, I just checked for one user of eaach spellbook. How would you define a "user with healing powers", so that I can code it?
> no character with thief skills
or locks & traps? ok, I can add that.
> no bard or gadgeteer
sure, why not? it's only a warning and thy are useful for newbies like me? Do you mean warn that there is none of them, or warn if one is present that other is absent? I think it's enough to have either one of them, personally.
> you are missing these important spells: Soul Shield, Elemental Shield ...
How do I figure that out? Isn't it enough to cover all 4 books?
> you are not able to wield the following armor, weapon: CoC, Great Sword,...
hmm, I can see I am going to have to do more research on this. bascially, I will have to find the cheat sheets & find the race/profession requierments for each major weapon/armor.
Thanks for the input. Maybe this will grow into something... |
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Tue Aug 20, 2002 11:22 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
For a newbie I would recommend not to listen to much at our advises the first time around, just play the game with your initial suggestions. Make your own experience with the game. And the second time you play the game supply our suggestions with your experiences, and go for the ultimate party along with that you put up the difficulty a notch or two. This game has a high replay value, due to many party combinations, and different story evolvments!
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Tue Aug 20, 2002 2:27 pm |
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