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Darksharp
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 32
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I'm going to make a few bold statements here. OK this is me speaking as a game dev...this is a not a flamebait or troll post. It's just a serious attempt to get someone at Pirahna Bytes to wake up and smell the "return-burn" because I like Gothic and would like to see it prosper.
CAVEAT: You can't use the people on this board or yourself as the barometer. We are the hardcore minority and don't count as the average consumer. Sorry guys, it's the truth. We are a very small percentage and don't make up a appreciable difference.
Gothic is a game (actually it's really a product) but PB is a business. Frankly, if PB wants to continue to operate and grow, (read: make money off the Gothic franchise) they should consider:
1. drop Xicat...they are a bottom-feeder publisher with very little distribution or advertising capabilities. If the title isn't readily available on the shelfs then what's the point of even shipping it. Gothic has to be in the Walmarts, the Targets, etc.
2. Drop the PC-only mentality, forget the sequel and port Gothic to consoles. I bet Gothic will sell less than 25k copies in North America which is a pittance to even the worst console sales. Our game (a PS1 title, I won't say which)on a console sold 102k on opening day in North America a few weeks ago. Most of the next-gen consoles are starving for a good medieval RPG.
What's the point of devving on PC's (except for MMOGS)? The market is much smaller and is expecially beaten down by the impossible to stop warez scene. , I'm not saying I don't like PC games...I love 'em, but they make very little business sense. Additionally, it'd be easy to make it work on a console and they'd be deving for a closed system instead of worrying about the myriad of user systems configurations. It's just a huge hassle. Save yourself the trouble so you can focus on the game. Not the hardware or specs.
3. Hire a better testing department. The common complaint here and in reviews has been the control setup. In fact, several of the guys who I work with (remember we're game devs, so we take this stuff seriously)have stated that Gothic has the worst controls of any game, ever. That's a pretty serious slam and to me that's why they are going to see alot of returns. I found the controls and still find them to be completely irritating. The other reasons: the pacing, the game is buggy as hell and has a terrible ending. Yes I know, time ran out, money ran out, etc. But the average gamer, doesn't know, nor do they care. If they don't like something they'll move on to something else and tell all their friends the game sucks. I know PB doesn't want that.
I hope this message reaches someone at PB. G'luck mates.
[ This Message was edited by: Darksharp on 2001-12-02 10:07 ]
[ This Message was edited by: Darksharp on 2001-12-02 10:09 ] |
Sun Dec 02, 2001 4:04 pm |
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wickedkae
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 26
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i agree with you on a few things about this game but i must say that you are way wrong on the control part. The games control stucture is very unique and very easy to use. it fits in perfectly and one of the reasons why this game is so enjoyable is becuase of this control scheme. This is just my opinion. I know it may be hard to understand at first(i almost took the game back becuase of this) but once you understand it, i couldnt honestly thino of a better way to have gone. sure they could have refined a few things, but overall the idea is well thought out an exectuted. My big complaint is that the instruction manuel sucked. It really doesnt teach you anything and this control scheme does make you do alot control exploration on your own. But dont bash the control becuase once you get used to it the game flows sooooooo well. everything from fighting to looting to robbing is so smoothly done, your never bogged down with menus and other crap. This leaves room for you as the player to menuver correctly to pull of whatever it is your trying to do.
As far as going over to console i agree with you, they should do that, but they should NEVER think of not making a Gothic 2. There are SOOOOO many things they could do with a number that would blow the RPG market out of sight using the stucture they have now. I just hope that if they make a 2 they do it right.
these are only my opinions though, so dont hate and flame.
I would like to know what game you were involved in though, that might be interesting to hear about. Then we can see your perspective a little better maybe? |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 5:52 pm |
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Darksharp
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 32
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Wicked, as I've stated, don't use yourself as a barometer. 
I have no idea why game designers feel the need to reinvent the wheel. Taking a tried and true approach from countless games before it would have benefitted greatly in sales.
Wicked, you said it yourself you almost returned the game. When a bunch of well-respected industry professionals who actually like RPG's sit and try out the interface and all come to the same conclusion that the interface is terrible, something is wrong. When a significant portion of a forums post is related to How do...pick something up, pick lock, equip a weapon, etc. Something is wrong.
A control scheme should be intuitive. Little thought should be required to the controls. If any thought is required a in-game tutorial should teach you the quirks.
After reaching level 6 I' still find it clunky and non intuitive. They should have use'd the right mouse button for submenus as a start.
For example...hold down left mouse button, up pops right mouse button menu with all things listed in your inventory via subcategory (Armor/Weps/Magic/etc). Sort of like what NWN is doing.
As far as Gothic 2, I never meant to say they shouldn't work on Gothic2...I said they should revise and port Gothic 1 to consoles THEN start Gothic 2 if they are seeing good sales on consoles.
And I'm sorry but I won't be revealing what game I work on...
[ This Message was edited by: Darksharp on 2001-12-02 12:22 ] |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 6:09 pm |
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Guest
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Reconfigure the keyboard. |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 6:26 pm |
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Darksharp
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 32
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Trust me I did. 
Look the bottom line is many people have problems with the controls. This translates into lost sales. This is PB's job to ship with a control scheme that most people will feel comfortable with. Not to reinvent the wheel to show everyone how creative they are. |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 6:32 pm |
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Zan
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 26 Nov 2001
Posts: 44
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Whenever someone plays a new game there are always new controls to learn.Once you learn the controls in Gothic and or configure them,it is a great game.I think the controls are good.I don't have a problem getting around.I play for graphics and game play,controls come last.I went from console to pc and will never go back. |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 7:15 pm |
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Hawkwind
Head Merchant
Joined: 10 Oct 2001
Posts: 54
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quote:
On 2001-12-02 13:15, Zan wrote:
Whenever someone plays a new game there are always new controls to learn.Once you learn the controls in Gothic and or configure them,it is a great game.I think the controls are good.I don't have a problem getting around.I play for graphics and game play,controls come last.I went from console to pc and will never go back.
I agree. I simply HATED the controls in the Gothic Demo (I haven't played the actual game, yet) I even complained on the forum about it. However, I was encouraged to experiment further, and so I reconfigured the keyboard to suit my style of gameplay, and after that - well, I had no trouble whatsoever, and did much better in the game.
==Hawkwind== |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 7:37 pm |
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wickedkae
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 27 Nov 2001
Posts: 26
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the controls in this game are very well layed out. The reason why you have posts like "hpw do i pick this up?" is becuase the manual sucked. they did a horrible job in explaining things. thats it. the actual interface rules, had the manual explained everything better then there would be no doubt that this system works great, becuase it does. The only fault in the controls is the manual. |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 7:56 pm |
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Darksharp
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 32
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nm
I knew you guys would use yourselves as the barometer. Can't look past your own insulated world. For example, I love Blade Runner and it has a huge cult following...most people find it deathly boring. I can see why people would think that.
If you like the Gothic controls that's fine. Don't really care but I'll bet you that most people will despise them. And there was absolutely no need to reinvent the wheel. We'll wait for the reviews from the English websites and mags. Funny no one has reviewed it at IGN or Gamespot yet.
Time to set up the Xmas tree! heh |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 8:22 pm |
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Aelhyn
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 05 Sep 2001
Posts: 48
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Well, actually, all the English previews so far have ALL been good. AND, ALL the German reviews have been good.
As for the controls...
I remember trying the 1st German demo. No mouse control, I couldn't stand combat. Gave up on it. (notice that I can't read German, despite taking courses for 3 yrs, lol)
2nd German demo (exactly the same as the English demo). Wow, mouse controls! It was confusing though. I had no idea how to pick up anything. So, being unable to wield a weapon, I fought a juvenile scavenger hand-to-hand. I, ahem, died, of course. So, I gave up. Yay!
When the English demo came up, I did something I rarely do: I read the read-me! It had everything explained very well. And there wasn't too much to read to know how to play. THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS: RIGHT-HANDED PLAYERS SHOULD USE THE ALTERNATIVE SETTING! It's great! |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 9:46 pm |
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Guest
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the problem I have with the controls is it seems that they went out of their way to do it "different" than any other game. It must be that damned German pride thing..always thinking that theyre better. I dont know why they couldnt go with the flow and incorporate the interfaces with the drag and drop or at least let us select things using a mouse cursor.
not only are the interfaces moderately aggravating, but combat is very hard. I get hit on one side, monster side steps..hits...side steps..hits. Basically hes strafing and maneuvering to my sides forcing me to spin my very undersensitive mouse and try to cut him off at an angle. Cash it in if you get ganged up.
In some cases I think the controls are quicker because its like "hot-key" functions..it just takes time to learn the combinations to manipulate. There are a ton of third person perspective games out there and most will agree that third person can have very difficult controls. This is by far the worst even compared to tomb raider. |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 9:50 pm |
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Darksharp
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 32
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Sorry , but previews do not equal reviews. Most previews lack any type of opinions.
I agree that PB seemed to go out of their way to reinvent a control scheme unnecessarily.
You know I fired up Drakan just to see how that controlled in battle. Gah, what a difference. Completely intuitive and here's the key...it was fun. Battle in Gothic, it isn't fun it's a chore. And multiples are VERY hard as was pointed out. Turning is painful even with mouse sensitivity cranked and/or using my keys.
SO I thought, ok lucky. Let's try a couple others
Fired up an old save Heavy Metal Fakk2. That was fun too.
Then I tried some UIX. Awkward but still kinda fun.
The only thing close to this weird key combo was Blade of Darkness. With Sacrifice trailing a close second. But still these were both kinda fun. And multiples were not a nightmare.
Additionally, Gothics trading interface is cumbersome and just plain terrible. Remember I'm level 6 and have had ample time to fully understand it. I doubt you could convince me that trading in Gothic takes about 10x longer than in say Baldurs Gate.
Again I like this game enough to slog thru it (sort of like I did with UIX). I'd really like to see PB redo this for a console. it'd be an easy port and sale IMHO.
BTW, for all the PC snobs who say all consoles suck...the way I look at it is...who cares how the game is delivered to me? Just that I get to play an immersive game with as little pain (drivers, bios, patches) as possible.
[ This Message was edited by: Darksharp on 2001-12-02 16:30 ] |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 10:21 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Most of your points are correct.
Xicatīs marketing and distribution abilities are quite obvious. 
3.Which reviews? I donīt know of English reviews, so I would like to know who reviewed it.
Testing Dep.: 100% true.
Controls: Not perfect. I like them because they are fast, but I can understand anyone who hates them. At least they should have communicated them better. It would have been quite easy to write a good manual with all the negative feedback they got after the German release.
The debatable controls and masses of bugs prevented Gothic from scoring constantly above 90% in German reviews.
The ending: Another grave mistake. Damn, I want to be rewarded for finishing a game!
edit to include your latest post:
The trading interface is bullshit. I like the inventory, the auto-sort is nice.
[ This Message was edited by: Gorath on 2001-12-02 16:45 ] |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 10:40 pm |
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Llama
High Emperor
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
Location: Earth |
First off, you aren't a developer and I doubt anyone here even remotely believes you about that.
Now, onto the rest...
Your comments have too little of substance for your opinions to be taken even remotely serious.
*Game is $29.99 American (some still have it at $39.99)...Either price is a substantial amount lower than any other developers game prices on release day.
*Over 100 hours of gameplay
*A gigantic, living, breathing world
*An interesting story
*A great engine
*Good music
*Excellent American voice acting (which is incredibly rare)
*A good variety of ways to play the game, and characters to "build"
--Name a game that offers all that, and much more for that low of a price. In regards to your "bugs", I am a firm believer that in this cause it is 90% a problem with your system, because the game has been out for a long while over seas and has been patched a few times, and brought up to speed. The English version contains all these fixes and I have personally put in almost 50 hours and have yet to even experience one little hic-up other than disappearing land in the forest area between the Old Camp and the Sect Camp (it disappears depending on where you stand and where you look and returns when you move around). Highly annoying but not too bad considering the land is still there, it just vanishes a moment. I'm sure it's a problem with my video setup somewhere, but it hasn't bothered me too much yet since I have yet to spend an enormous amount of time in the area.
*I don't shop for games at wallmart/target/kmart/meijer or anything like that, so I can't comment on that point, but there probably isn't an are that doesn't have an EB, Babbages, Comp USA, Circuit City, Best Buy, and/or other electronics store that sells computers and the like all of which sell this game.
*This is the first game that the crew at PB has done, and it's won tons of awards in Germany, and I'm sure it will get its fair share here in the States as well.
Just because you have to take time to learn the controls and get used to a unique GUI/control style does not mean the game isn't up to par. |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 10:44 pm |
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Darksharp
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 30 Nov 2001
Posts: 32
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You know, I've been pretty polite to this point. But I gotta say....Llama you're a horse's ass.
Just because you don't have a job in the game industry isn't my problem ok? You're just a typical fanboi who takes someone saying something negative (but constructive)about the game as if they're insulting their own mother.
Llama, it's people like you that we laugh at where I work. Your opinion means nothing to dev teams because you're too fanatical and can't see the forest for the trees. You don't understand games as commerce. You don't represent the average consumer, so you don't mean dollars to us, so why should we care what you think? Don't believe me? head to GDC this year (March 19-23 in LA) and ask some of the dev teams from EQ, AO, DAoC what they think of fanbois. They hate you. You make their lives miserable. 1% of the users make up 90% of the problems.
Nevertheless, I've got nothing to prove to someone on a tiny fan board for a tiny game. You can ignore what I say but the bottom line is Gothic will sell squat in N. America. After Xmas the unsold copies will be selling for $9.95.
1. Because of Xicat
2. Because of the controls
3, Because gamers have only so much money and they're going to spend it on more accessible, less buggy titles.
BTW, my system is great. 1.4 Athlon, GeForce 3 running WInXP Pro with a gig of Ram. Stable as hell.
I suppose my system has something to do with
1. The broken quests
2. The frying pan exploit
3. Sword making exploit
4. Falling out of the world in the forest
5. Collision issues
6. Sound bugs
Shall I go on?
In it's current state, this game would have never passed our current rigorous testing. But that's the old PC motto right, "ship it broken... patch it later".
You're just another narrow-minded jackass who thinks just because something didn't happen to them, that it applies to everyone else. You are not the barometer for the rest of the world.
Finally, game awards mean squat to consumers... so don't use that line of bullshite. Sacrifice won a ton of awards, is a great game and sold 49,000 copies. Deus Ex was a fine game, won a ton of awards and sold 83,000. Now Deus Ex are going console...why? Explain that. Commerce.
I like Gothic...did I not mention that? Let me count how many times I said that...1...2...3...4...5 times...hmm. My suggestions were to make Gothic successful rather than an obscure, forgotten title. This was not bashing.
Llama, my suggestion: take some reading comprehension courses and get laid. I'm done with you like a used condom, fanboi. (dusts off his hands, washes them in anti-bacterial soap).
[ This Message was edited by: Darksharp on 2001-12-02 17:57 ] |
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Sun Dec 02, 2001 11:34 pm |
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