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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
@Gorath, I've never heard any real figures for SS. That seems very low but I never doubt your knowledge.
I'm still not convinced that TB is instant death. Despite all of ToEE's shortcomings the sales aren't that bad (taking into account the problems and publicity). Had Troika chosen a more interesting module with a good story and injected some decent dialogue I think it could have done quite well.
Games like Civ3 manage to sell quite well and console games seem to regularly have TB combat (albeit often different to my expectation of "TB"). Many players are convinced the combat in KotOR is turn-based and Bio has regularly used that description. The fact that it isn't TB doesn't change that people aren't turned off when that description is applied to KotOR.
So, why can EA happily develop a big-budget TB "Lord of the Rings: The Third Age" RPG for every console but a PC CRPG is instant death?
@Remus, I agree there are other important issues than just the PoV and TB. I'm simply not a fan of the combat in Wiz8 (worst part of the game IMO and a big part of why no-one bought it. Sorry), so that doesn't reassure me. 
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Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:45 am |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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I personally am exited about the Project. To explain: I am very much an "exploration" centered RPGamer. The appeal in all RPG's lies for me in the ability to see, explore, interact with another world, and to be part of a story in it. The Fallout universe was a very interesting world, and therefore any RPG that allows me to revisit the universe would be exiting to me - I couldn't care less about the technology used. If they really decide to go first person (and I actually believe that most likely this will be only one option, with tactical overhead views also included), I would just see this new game as something similar as Ultima Underwold was to the core ultimas - different, but full of promise. |
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Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:44 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
And directly to your question, what programmability issues you could have been forseen that prevent combat aspect to be implemented in first-person view? Wizardry 8 used turn-based combat system and worked well in first-person angle.
It did work, the only problem was that you couldn't send some of your characters around to out-flank opponents, or ambush, etc. I often found myself running to a corner with my back against the wall so enemies could only come at me in small groups while my mage, who was safely in the back, could pelt the monsters with spells.
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
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Sat Jul 17, 2004 9:31 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
@Gorath, I've never heard any real figures for SS. That seems very low but I never doubt your knowledge.
Actually the NPD number Julian (I think) posted was even lower. But I wasn´t sure if it was 6k or 9k, so I rounded it up. Well, there must be some reason JoWooD replaced Encore/Navarre with a new North American partner founded by some industry veterans.
The X² sales posted on Qt3 are even more shocking: 2k in North America.
Civ 3 is nor a good example because this franchise is no RPG and it´s still related to Sid Meier, the ex-genius.
TToEE had a new dev, a big publisher and probably a rather low budget. Maybe it earned money, but it was for sure no big hit.
FO3 will have the no.2 in the PC RPG business as dev & publisher, a AAA budget and at least one console port. Add the costs for the license and I would suspect FO3 has to sell 3x as many full price units as TToEE did, across all platforms. I doubt this is possible with a TB RPG, even for such successful company as Bethesda.
JA3, JA3D and Disciples 3 are of course easy money if SFI survives long enough to ship them and the games are okay. |
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:59 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Yes, I'm sure ToEE didn't make much money (assuming it did) but it didn't deserve to, either - I still think that shows potential. Civ3 - OK, it was a bit of stretch and a different genre. 
What about console RPGs?
X2 only sold 2k in the US? That's strange - it easily sold more here and topped the UK charts for a while. Perhaps that indicates any lack of SS sales can be attributed to poor efforts from Encore rather than being TB.
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Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:10 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
I'd say the reason X2 hasn't done well is because I have yet to see it on the shelves of any store that sells software.
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
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Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:52 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I'm only just now seeing X2 in a few EB around the city... when I looked for it back in January I had to buy it off the internet.
But X2 is absolutely positively NOT a RPG in the slightest. The dialogue options, such as they are, in the 'story' mean absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter what you choose. It's a space/trade simulator, and that's a whole other kettle of fish... one that caters to a niche much smaller than RPG.
I think there is still a place for TB CRPGs... they are my personal favorite and I know I'm not alone. The gaming populace is aging now that it's ok to play computer games as an adult (sort of) ... a lot of people my age or older like the turn based over the twitch new style action CRPG.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
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=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:45 am |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
I'd say the reason X2 hasn't done well is because I have yet to see it on the shelves of any store that sells software.
Do you have any Best Buy stores in your area? That's where I picked up my copy of X2. I got it shortly after release. I doesn't work on my computer... but that's where I got it.  |
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Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:32 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
No, I'll probably check EB again today and see if they have it. Otherwise I'll have to get it off the internet in which case I'll wait for the price to drop a little.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
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Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:49 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
I think there is still a place for TB CRPGs... they are my personal favorite and I know I'm not alone. The gaming populace is aging now that it's ok to play computer games as an adult (sort of) ... a lot of people my age or older like the turn based over the twitch new style action CRPG.
Personally, I loved the KOTOR style gaming. More so than BG style. For some reason KOTOR stop and go action was more streamlined and felt more intuitive. I would not mind the new F3 game to be KOTOR like.
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Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:37 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Bleh.  Streamlined - yes. Even Chris Avellone said he played through using essentially nothing but Critical Strike...only that's not a good thing. Combat was one of KotOR's low points for me.
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Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:52 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Master speed, double saber, greater flurry for me, w00t. 
Combat was beautiful but hardly KOTOR's selling point for me. It was NWN with even prettier combat animations than NWN... nothing more, nothing less. From Fallout, which has always had fun and interesting combat despite 2d graphics, poor animations, and limited options (limited USEFUL options), I expect something ... better somehow.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:31 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
Ummm... I thought this would be self-evident, but I guess I ass-u-med too much.
When I said that I liked the combat engine in KOTOR, I was not refering to actual combat skills/perks. I was talking about the basic principles behind it. How it works, rather than which of the KOTOR moves would you use in F3.
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Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:51 pm |
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Rainstorm
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 02 Dec 2001
Posts: 194
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quote:
Originally posted by GhanBuriGhan
I personally am exited about the Project. To explain: I am very much an "exploration" centered RPGamer. The appeal in all RPG's lies for me in the ability to see, explore, interact with another world, and to be part of a story in it. The Fallout universe was a very interesting world, and therefore any RPG that allows me to revisit the universe would be exiting to me - I couldn't care less about the technology used. If they really decide to go first person (and I actually believe that most likely this will be only one option, with tactical overhead views also included), I would just see this new game as something similar as Ultima Underwold was to the core ultimas - different, but full of promise.
The problem for a HC Fallout fanatic as me isn't about the exploration....I'd love to be able to go about exploring the FO universe freely....
What I see as a potential problem is if it gets stuck in the MW version of so-called story,NPC interaction,dialogue,combat,char. development and so on....to me MW felt like a big boring,beautiful and very explorable world....but in the end it was just a beautiful hack'n'slash where I never cared much about "myself".(not to mention my NPC's,where I struggled like a maniac to keep Dogmeat and Sulik alive in FO2)
It lacked focus and clarity and the NPC's were all copies of themselves,noone like Dogmeat,Killigan,Ian,Harold and so on at all in that world...no personality at all....even the cow you walk by that says "moo,I say" has more personality than all the NPC's in MW combined.... |
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Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:32 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
It did work, the only problem was that you couldn't send some of your characters around to out-flank opponents, or ambush, etc. I often found myself running to a corner with my back against the wall so enemies could only come at me in small groups while my mage, who was safely in the back, could pelt the monsters with spells.
Refer to my answer to Dhruin.
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
@Remus, I agree there are other important issues than just the PoV and TB. I'm simply not a fan of the combat in Wiz8 (worst part of the game IMO and a big part of why no-one bought it. Sorry), so that doesn't reassure me.
My question is whether there are specific reasons on why game developer can't create the Wizardry 8-like camera angle or variations of it (imaging adding capability to see your party members, controlling them to fend off individually). With more advance hardware capability and programming (zoom-able, or controllable camera position as in Ground Control II), perspective problem in Wizardry 8 certainly can be improved.
I'm not interested in converting you to like specific camera angle as the best. There is no ultimate camera view point. More improvements can be added to camera setup in existing Fallout games. The idea that Fallout 3 and it sequels should forever stucked with isometric view seem strange.
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Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:09 am |
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