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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
But if we talk are to talk about people who could be helped but are not, what about suicides? Specifically people born with chemical imbalances driven to suicide by their own illness/imbalances, freewill is one thing, but if someone was born ill then how much freewill did they really have? Same could be said for those born with terminal diseases or children with cancer or those living in countries who suffer famine, where is the freewill in any of this? Maybe they didn’t pray hard enough to turn the hurricane away from them like Pat Robertson did? Maybe they didn’t pray hard enough to make mana fall from heaven? Or maybe they just didn’t feel like playing Job?
In that case, yo might as well ask how much free will there is at all? Your body is a conglomeration of chemical inbalances and reactions, driven by environmental stimuli. |
Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:24 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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That’s a good point, but would it eliminate the need for religion? |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:36 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Probably, but as far as I know religious people don't accept this, and conjure up this invisible, undetectable thing (often called a soul) that lives in the body, and is their real self. Although I'm afraid I don't really understand how this detachment of the mind rhethoric works, since the mind clearly is a part of the body. |
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 7:57 pm |
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cfmdobbie
High Emperor
Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 1859
Location: London, England |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
since the mind clearly is a part of the body.
Not at all - the brain is clearly part of the body. But what if the brain, aside from its normal duties of processing and recollecting, were also the interaction point between the physical body and the metaphysical mind?
This theory is known as Cartesian Duality, and it's well worth pondering for a while. If true: the observations of the physical world remain unchanged; God exists, can interact with and be detected by the immortal soul; different interpretations of what happens when a soul is severed from its body allow for an afterlife, reincarnation and even karma.
Personally, I like this theory. The only major problem it has is that there needs to be a connection between the mind and the body, and due to a lack of understanding on their part, people assumed the brain was it. As we understand more about the brain, there remains less and less room in which Duality can function unchanged.
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Charlie Dobbie
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 11:23 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
quote:
Originally posted by Roach
Not for some people.
And to add to the above...
If Job had failed the test and turn from God would he have been sent to hell? Or did God turn from Job for allowing the Devil to test him so ruthlessly?
I dont believe in the Devil, and I cant realy comment on the Bible since I have never read it and it has little to nothing to do with my beliefs.
My life has been far from easy, I have had a very secluded childhood where I was bullied and ridiculed in school, and although I now have a good life with a wonderful wife, she has many many serious illnesses and will likely be taken from me long before I die. So I am most definately not saying all this from a perspective of someone with a perfect life.
I dont even believe that we are all supposed to have perfect lives. The fact that our reality exists at all is amazing enough to me. A little suffering seems a small price to pay to exist in such a wonderous place.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 1:45 pm |
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Krzychu
Hidden Character
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1738
Location: It is my little secret. |
quote:
Originally posted by Roach
I don’t feel that there is a God, but if there is then I feel he has turned his back on a whole lot of people, myself included.
We all suffer - some of us more, some less. Nobody said that our life here is supposed to be wonderful and 100% happy - that's for sure. Now, if you're asking why some people suffer extremely or why children are sentenced to an early death before they are even born, then my answer is: I don't know. But I do not believe that God doesn't care about those people - beacuse I trust God. I know this may look to you that I'm just blinded by my beliefs... but I can't do much about it. I think I, unfortunately, just cannot prove to you that God cares about all those people who suffer and die everyday. I wish I could, but I cannot - unless you think that the fact we exist is enough proof... I shall think about this.
Hm, I might add one more thing. When you suffer injustice here, a reward awaits you in Heaven.
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Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:23 pm |
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titus
Survivor of Hell
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 778
Location: Standing at the Hell mouth |
So He will compensate me with a 1000 virgins if I die and a afterlife full of good beer sex and rock and roll 
at least he will then come close to repaying my griefs
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Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:34 pm |
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Krzychu
Hidden Character
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1738
Location: It is my little secret. |
Hm, I'm not sure how Heaven looks like, but I doubt it's something like what you described.
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Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:45 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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quote:
Originally posted by Krzychu
Hm, I might add one more thing. When you suffer injustice here, a reward awaits you in Heaven.
Unless I don’t believe in God?
Sorry to break it to you Titus but it’s only 72 virgins.
Someone pointed out something, I forget who but I want to say it was Bill Maher. Why virgins? It’s not like you’re going to get an sexually transmitted disease in heaven right? Why not a mix of 72 virgins, strippers, and hookers then you can get a good variety.
And by the way, if there is only about a 1:1 ratio of men to women down here on Earth, then where are all these women coming from? Are the ‘virgins’ really just going from guy to guy hoping he won’t notice while one of them is keeping the guy busy?
Last edited by Roach on Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Wed Aug 17, 2005 9:42 pm |
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Krzychu
Hidden Character
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1738
Location: It is my little secret. |
quote:
Originally posted by Roach
Unless I don’t believe in God?
So it would seem.
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Thu Aug 18, 2005 11:41 am |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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So my reward is proportional to what I go through so long as I keep giving the right people their 10%.
Ever heard of a pyramid scheme? |
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Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:56 pm |
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Krzychu
Hidden Character
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1738
Location: It is my little secret. |
Actually, Roach, forget what I said in the previous post. I was wrong - sorry for that (Hey, I'm no expert). It isn't said that Heaven is reserved only for those who believe in God.
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Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:40 pm |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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A lot of people think otherwise.
I couldn’t count the number of times I’ve been told I’m going to Hell if I don’t convert. That even a murderer or a rapist can get into Heaven, but I can’t unless I fall to my knees and worship a deity. In real life I seem to attract born-agains like a magnet, and they freely tell people that they must convert or go to Hell, so I stopped taking offence long ago. Why should I get upset about being told I’m going somewhere I don’t believe in. Frankly, I’d be much more worried if someone told me they were going to activate the draft and send me to Iraq any threats of Hell.
Growing up in a moderate Christian setting I was taught that God was all loving and that he would judge you by your actions not by lip service prayers and donations. Frankly the current Pope has done things that I would find too discussing to ever do. So if I am to go to Hell not because of my actions but because I’m not capable in taking on blind faith the ‘universal truth’ of human institutions, religious of otherwise, and believe that religion, much like communism, is a noble idea but is so easily corruptible that it does more harm then good, in addition to the negative effects religion has had on my own life, then that’s just the way it is. At this point in my life I will not bend my knee to man, country, or God and if God has a problem with that then he can tell the entire world himself. |
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Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:09 pm |
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landlord
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 09 Feb 2005
Posts: 27
Location: Suceava, Romania |
[quote="Roach"]
But we don’t decide what happens to those ‘lesser beings’ went they die. Our judgment of them makes no difference at all to them after they die. I don’t discount the possible existence of higher beings, I figure that the closer you go to the center of the universe the higher the chances get that there are. But why must any higher beings be worshiped?
We don't decide what happens to those 'lesser beings' because we didn't create them. If God is right, then our soul comes from His very soul, and thus he has the right to ask his own soul to obey and worship him. But He doesn't use the right to 'ask'. He shows us, in the Bible, why we must, why we need, not to obey, but to love Him as a Father.
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Some people search all their life for something and don't find, while others find and aren't satisfied.(Mihai Eminescu) |
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Fri Oct 21, 2005 7:11 am |
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