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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
quote:
Not wishing to focus too much on semantics (developers, producers, etc.) - they all are lumped into a basket -- them vs us (the consumers).
Now, how would I care to continue this discussion if you are serious about this?
Joey, think again before posting, please.
Excuse me? If there is a "fault" in a product, as a consumer, it is NOT nor should it be my concern where in the production of that product the "fault" technically lies. Thus, as is only reasonable, I lump all of the production team together for the sake of the discussion of product "faults". As someone who has been in product conception, product marketing, product design teams, product validation, product evalutation I DO understand that the decisions and tradeoffs that must be made in the execution of any product are frequently complex - the bottom line is that from the consumer point of view those decisions ultimately are represented by "them" that is the identifable company whose name appears on the product. From the consumer point of view it is totally irrelavant whether a product fault is the result of a decision made by the Vice President of Sales or by a technical tradeoff from the software team, etc.
So, please, I DID think before posting - did you?
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:10 pm |
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Mattias Kreku
Guest
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| Wow.. I finally found you! |
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I'm so glad I found a thread where people are expressing the EXACT same thoughts on Morrowind as me!
The more I play Morrowind the more I dislike it. I feel the only reason I am still playing it now is because I paid a whole lot of money for this box and Gothic 2 is still not out 
To me this game is so shallow, underdeveloped and overrated I am beginning to wonder what people who like it are like.. If they don't demand the slightest challenge from a game.. no balance on eq/levels/skills.. no variation in either npc interaction or landscape visuals (people who bring up fame must be kidding themselves).. then what do they see in it?
Doesn't the running speed bother them? The unorganized journal? The unrealistic weather effects? (which we have seen done MUCH better in other games) The cluttered inventory?
Do they actually enjoy the pocket-sized dungeons? The loading times every tenth second? The endless cliff racer attacks? The fact that there are at most 5 different mobiles in the wilderness?
How about how quests have no purpose other than filling your journal with mindless chatter? Or how nothing can be manipulated, like barrels floating in the water for eternity.. floating planks that can't be moved (I have actually gotten stuck in one once.. had to reload the game).. boats that just sit there totally uninteractable?
Don't they miss day and night cycles? AI of ANY kind from npc's or monsters? A fighting system other than clicking your mouse?
What is the use of a large world if you don't fill it with anything? What is the use of a billion npc's if they're all the same, except the name? What's the use of having lots and lots of quests when they don't affect anything after completion? (uh.. fame affects a once sentence greeting)
Uhm.. the box is came in looks nice though. It's brown. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:51 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
It's not "them" versus "us". They aren't enemies.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 7:52 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
I really appreciate your masochistic behaviour, Mattias
If I don't like a game, I don't play it, regardless of what I have paid for it.
And yes, I enjoy the game very much. I don't find the running speed slow, not after my athletics have reached a considerable level. I care about the unorganized journal, this needs improvement. I don't find the weather effects unrealistic. In fact, I think they are the best I have ever seen in a game. Name me those that have better weather effects (just two or three of them *g*). I don't think the inventory is cluttered. I find it well organized.
I don't think the dungeons are pocket size. I am comfortable with spending about 15 minutes in one, 45 minutes in the larger ones. I don't have loading times every tenth of a second. I don't mind the cliff racer attacks - I use them to practive my marksman skills.
I don't know why you think there are only 5 mobiles in the wilderness. There are: alits, ascended sleepers, ash ghouls, netches, clannfears, cliff racers, corpus stalkers, dreughs, guars, kagoutis, kwama foragers - do I have to continue to prove you have no idea at all?
I haven't seen a single quest that does nothing more than filling my journal with chatter. Which one? You have played 200+ in your own words, so it won't be hard to name me a single one that does nothing more.
I could go on and on to show you the lameness of your complaints. If you would only stick to facts, this would be a nice discussion - but you are obviously making things up - could you tell me why you do that?
Just one more example to make it even more clear? Combat itsn't just clicking the mouse. It's about movement and using the right attack, it's about knowing how to counter certain magical attacks.
But yeah, I forgot you played 100+ hours and did 200+ quests because you are a masochist *g*
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:04 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
It's not "them" versus "us". They aren't enemies.
That is correct - but you apparently missed the point entirely. The topic came up in the context of "whose is responsible for the game faults". In that context (which is the one I was responding to), it IS them vs us. We (the consumers) had nothing to do with the production of this game. They (everybody on the production teams) did.
Let us take a few issues (gameplay, technical, content, etc.) and look at them.
1. For some reason (no, I did not design the game so I cannot KNOW why) the production team produced a game wherein one can get physically "stuck" in the graphics requiring one to either use the console or restart the game. Is this a good thing in a game? Absolutely not. Does it happen so infrequently that we can understand they missed it in testing? Absolutely not - it happens frequently. Did any of us (the consumers) make the game function in this manner? No. Who did? They (the production team) did. Is this functionality consistant with good game design? No. Is this functionality simply state of the art? Absolutely not - we have all played games wherein this either never happens or happens FAR more infrequently. Should the game have been released with this functionality? Absolutely not - they should have made it work correctly.
2. NPCs frequently (more in some areas than others) block the path (doorways, stairs, etc.) causing either extreme difficulty in moving for the character or making it impossible until the NPC has moved (or through use of the console again). I won't repeat - but the same questions and answers as in 1 apply.
3. Bad AI - this covers a wide range and it is not my intent here to mention them all - many others have in other threads (and most of the reviews mentioned this problem). This problem is severe. All of the same things I said in 1 above apply.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:09 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Joey:
1 - I NEVER encountered a situation where I got stuck in all the time I played the release version of the game (none where jumping didn't get me out). I have to say that it was able for me to get stuck in the beta.
2 - yes, NPC's block doors from time to time. The solution is to wait app. 15 seconds until they start moving. I don't consider this to be a major fault in the game.
3 - The pathfinding is far from perfect. But tell me a single game where pathfinding works like intended . Baldur's Gate? *g* No. However, once again I have to say that I never had a follower got stuck. I ecounter bad pathfinding with some critters on rocks. But apart from that - no.
Who's responsible for the game's faults? The developers and the QA. Do I think the game contains serious showstoppers? Not at all. Can I live with the flaws that are there. Certainly. Do I want them patched. Some. Some I don't think to be that important.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:16 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
I haven't seen a single quest that does nothing more than filling my journal with chatter. Which one?
I forget the NPC names involved so I will describe it. A female standing out in the middle of nowhere (near Peligiad as I recall) gives me this sob story about a thief who she is enamored with and asks me to find him and give him her glove.
I hope you recognize the quest.
It is mindless and inane from concept to completion. It has NOTHING I ever found (nor anyone else has posted) to do with the main plot or any subplot in the game.
Further, how inanely imagined by the authors. She is standing out in the middle of the road instead of going to Peligiad herself? Why? If nothing else, she would be safer inside the town limits. Nothing ever attacks her - more example of good game programming. After doing what she requests, there is not even a clever ending to the quest. There is no ramification of your doing the quest or not. The designers didn't even bother to have them appear together later in the story living happily ever after (or finding her or him dead with the glove rammed up their behind).
Nothing - nada - blaa.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:19 pm |
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Greb Jnnayr
Village Leader
Joined: 08 Dec 2001
Posts: 75
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Why do people there is no day night cycle. i always see it go from day to night and back to day. I always see the light going down as it gets darker, and more light coming as it gets lighter. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:20 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Joey, sure I remember. And you are wrong again.
The quest gives you the name of a friend of the lady in another city (if you are male), and this lady will give you a) a high level restore health potion and b) some nice gossip about the couple you brought together.
Why doesn't it have to do something with the main quest or the faction quests? Tataaaa - because it is a miscellaneous quest, and by the way - there are five of them in and around Peliagad, not counting the hillarous Ahlnassi quest(s).
So - please give me another example - this one didn't work .
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:26 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Oh, and yes, as I said, there is an end to that quest, but not before you go to Ald'ruhn.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:28 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Greb Jnnayr
Why do people there is no day night cycle. i always see it go from day to night and back to day. I always see the light going down as it gets darker, and more light coming as it gets lighter.
I cannot speak for everybody, but I suspect I know what most are talking about. It isn't that there is NO day/night cycle BUT that except for the light change there are no other ramifications of the time change. For instance, nobody goes home from their stores, nobody goes to sleep, different creatures don't come out at night vs day, etc.
A good CRPG SHOULD have these features.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:30 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
If every good CRPG should have that feature, then there are only three good CRPG's: Ultima 7, Gothic and Arcanum.
I mean, that's laughable. It would have been nice if this would have been in, but to say it's a bad RPG because the NPC's don't react accordingly is very strange.
BTW - some do react to day and night, but not by going home
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:34 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
If every good CRPG should have that feature, then there are only three good CRPG's: Ultima 7, Gothic and Arcanum.
I mean, that's laughable. It would have been nice if this would have been in, but to say it's a bad RPG because the NPC's don't react accordingly is very strange.
No not laughable at all. What is laughable (in a sad way) is that you ignore what is being said. Nowhere did I say that a CRPG was bad JUST because it didn't have this feature. In fact, I have never said it is a bad game - those are yours and other people's words thrust into my mouth.
What has been said by me and numerous others is that there are many, many features that are not "right" with this game. All (well, most) COULD and SHOULD be done differently. Because at it's very heart a CRPG is a simulation of the real world - that alone dictates that it emulate features of the real world (as well as technology allows). Thus, it should be apparent that quality emulation of day/night cycles SHOULD be in a quality CRPG. Further, that day/night emulation SHOULD be as complete as possible (considering the technology of the day). Other games have done it - thus Bethesda did NOT have to invent new concepts nor any new technologies. They simply had to do it.
BTW - some do react to day and night, but not by going home [/quote]
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:49 pm |
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The Hurricane
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 01 Jun 2002
Posts: 299
Location: The Sword Coast |
Joey Nipps - Good thoughts.
The bottom line about this game is that it simply does not live up to the hype. Before the game was released I would browse morrowindsummit and destination morrowind everyday believing that morrowind was going to be as close to a living breathing world as any rpg would dare get. I read the stories of how game testers would wait until night-time in Seyda Neen to see an npc (Fargoth) sneaking around and hiding loot. I thought "wow" npc's sneak around and do things like that? Sadly, after playing the game for 20+ hours I realized that there were actually only 100 npcs in the game as the rest were just carbon copies that say the exact same things. Same for the quests. They have no motivation. Who cares if I bring some chick in the mage's guild a ceramic bowl? The only benifit I get from finishing most quests is that people tend to think higher of me. However, it doesn't matter, since npcs just stay in one spot in the game and seem to have no concept of what's going on around them. It's this type of blandness that makes morrowind not live up to its hype. I believe Todd Howard (I think that's his name) said that morrowind was going to be the best single player rpg money can buy, but I don't think morrowind lived up to that.
Well, with all that said, morrowind is still a rather pleasant way to waste a few hours. The character building is definately the strong point of this game, that and the graphics. It's got a huge world to explore, awesome ways to build up a super character, awesome spells, sweet abilities like enchant, and cool looking armor and weapons. Even though this game has its flaws it does so many things right. Great game, I give it a 8.5/10 
'
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 8:55 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Joey, sorry, but when you say:
quote:
A good CRPG SHOULD have these features.
what else should that mean that if a game doesn't have these features, it isn't a good RPG? I mean, that's the basics of logic. How could one misinterpret your statement?
quote:
Nowhere did I say that a CRPG was bad JUST because it didn't have this feature.
Oh, sorry, but: yes, you did exactly say that.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:02 pm |
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