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| Which faction below you prefer in Dx2 (refer to addendum first). |
| The Omar (pro-posthumanism) |
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90% |
[ 10 ] |
| The Templars (anti-posthumanism) |
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9% |
[ 1 ] |
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| Total Votes : 11 |
Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
| DX2:The next stage of human evolution: transhuman & post |
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quote:
"Egghead types and government stooges will tell you that nanotech is the greatest thing since our protozan ancestors decided sex was more fun than fission. Me, i think it's the most frightening technology since the H-Bomb. No, it's the most frightening technology ever!." -Joe Greene, "The Straight Skinny", THE MIGHNIGHT SUN (newspaper clippings came with the Deus Ex manual)
Unless some terrible disease strike us, or some asteroids flying straight toward the earth, or natural calamity hits the earth so hard that push back the human civilization for several centuries - the dawn of transhumanism and posthumanism seem almost inevitable.
What is transhuman? - it is an intermediary stage between normal human and posthuman. Transhumanism is a movement and doctrine on how to deal with the limitations of human form in future through science and technology. For example, developing various technologies to counter aging, sicknesses, or to improve physical and psychological capabilities. If all turning out well, then we become posthuman and in the posthuman period because we no longer have the pure and original human body.
Some believe we're already in transhumanism phase, or maybe in the early part of posthumanism. The often recited reasons is that we already have pacemakers for the heart at end of 1950's, and then the artificial joints, retinal implants for the blind. Even just for cosmestic purposes, with enough money, many women are willing to altering they body. We also already start researching Stem Cell, promoting genetically reengineered crops/foods, etc.
The posthuman period maybe still very far from now, but it's only matter of time. According to WTA (World Transhumanist Association):
quote:
"Posthumans could be completely synthetic artificial intelligences..., or they could be the result of making many smaller but cumulatively profound augmentations to a biological human. The latter alternative would probably require either the redesign of the human organism using advanced nanotechnology or its radical enhancement using some combination of technologies such as genetic engineering, psychopharmacology, anti-aging therapies, neural interfaces, advanced information management tools, memory enhancing drugs, wearable computers, and cognitive techniques."
For further understanding, search the internet for transhumanism and posthumanism; or latest academical books regarding posthumanism from the 90's and upward.
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Addendum:
From two opposite factions (anti-posthumanism and pro-posthumanism, other factions excluded) in DX2, according to your own opinion regarding posthumanism, which faction you prefer to follow? Don't choose posthumanism just because of its coolness. Transhumanist/posthumanist admitted that there will be negative and unexpected ramification of transhumanism, irreversible errors or putting a huge risk on human species themselves.
Explanations:
THE OMAR
The Omar are a worldwide cult of cyborgs, openly dedicated to the idea of transcending human limitations through technology. Though many individuals outside the cult are biomodified, the cyborgs are the only group that explicitly promotes "posthumanism." Accustomed to procuring technology for themselves, the Omar have established a global black market for high-tech and weapons.
THE TEMPLARS
The Templars are a "revived" incarnation of the ancient secret society. The extent of their agenda and membership is not yet known, but many have heard their criticism of biomodification. They are fanatic in their belief that biomods represent pollution of the human genome and so they preach a dedication to purity.
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Mon Nov 10, 2003 6:55 am |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
For someone who preferred the obvious ending of DX1 (obvious for me as a machine lover, of course) - The Omar.
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Jaz |
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Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:03 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
The Omar. Why fight technology?
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Mon Nov 10, 2003 8:13 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
I think many are willing adopters of posthumanism. Personally i preferring posthumanism since i believe our adaptation capabilities and willingness to change is one of the reason why we human can exist longer (far from extinction), and became technologically more advance than any other species on earth.
But for balancing prupose, i will argue the other way around:
- Is really posthumanism the correct way for us to follow? God already providing a very fitting body for us, for both man and woman. Is there any sayings in Bible, or Koran, that teach us to abadon or modifying our body which is giving by God? Isn't that also a sacrilege?.
- For naturalists, why we should tempering with nature and the original human body?, or disobeying the law of nature?
- At least initially, the techologies will only available to wealthy people. Most middle class population, and especially lower income groups won't have access to those benefits for a long time. This certainly will widening the social inequalities.
- Biotechnology, nanotechnology, and artificial intelligence pose serious risks of accidents and abuse. For example, the destructive uses of nanotechnology, or accidental release of a self-replicating nanobot into the environment, or Biological warfare (capable to wipe out human race).
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Mon Nov 10, 2003 3:12 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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The Omar. Transcending human limitations is why the first tool using cave man picked up a rock. Might as well finish the job properly.
And hey... if it gets screwed up somehow and the entire race is wiped out at least there will be nobody left to regret it.
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Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Mon Nov 10, 2003 4:03 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
But for balancing prupose, i will argue the other way around:
- Is really posthumanism the correct way for us to follow? God already providing a very fitting body for us, for both man and woman. Is there any sayings in Bible, or Koran, that teach us to abadon or modifying our body which is giving by God? Isn't that also a sacrilege?.
- For naturalists, why we should tempering with nature and the original human body?, or disobeying the law of nature?
- At least initially, the techologies will only available to wealthy people. Most middle class population, and especially lower income groups won't have access to those benefits for a long time. This certainly will widening the social inequalities.
- Biotechnology, nanotechnology, and artificial intelligence pose serious risks of accidents and abuse. For example, the destructive uses of nanotechnology, or accidental release of a self-replicating nanobot into the environment, or Biological warfare (capable to wipe out human race).
Brilliant  . Unfortunately, I don't make in-game choices out of reason. My guts are responsible for my character's decisions.
@ EX: even if nobody might be left to weep, humankind might still have created the next step on the evolutionary ladder somewhere on the way... self-aware machines?
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Jaz |
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Mon Nov 10, 2003 5:51 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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Posthumanism. Why not?
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
Is really posthumanism the correct way for us to follow?
Only time will tell.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
Is there any sayings in Bible that teach us to abadon or modifying our body which is giving by God?
No.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
Isn't that also a sacrilege?.
No.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
For naturalists, why we should tempering with nature and the original human body?
We are constantly tampering with our bodies, from cutting our nails to having surgery. Posthumanism is just the next step.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
or disobeying the law of nature?
Implants do not disobey the laws of nature. On the contrary, they follow it.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
At least initially, the techologies will only available to wealthy people. Most middle class population, and especially lower income groups won't have access to those benefits for a long time. This certainly will widening the social inequalities.
No. New technology has always been introduced to the upper classes first, from the automobile to computers.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
Biotechnology, nanotechnology, and artificial intelligence pose serious risks of accidents and abuse.
There are other things, such as nuclear energy, that, in my opinion, pose a far greater threat than those you mentioned.
_________________
"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Mon Nov 10, 2003 7:24 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
So far i can see, if not all, more posters are from liberal or progressive people. It is hard to find conservative, anti-posthumanism, religious type people on message boards here, or they're only watching?.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Remus
Is really posthumanism the correct way for us to follow?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Only time will tell.
The statement "Only time will tell." So many things in this world that science failed to answer, or simply unanswearable. Can you prove something abstract such as "Love". That is why and one of the weakness often used by religiously groups to counter most thinkings in science and technology. The science answering something without basing on truth as in Bible and such, but always base on limited experiments, with several selected samples, with questionable and flawed methods, with theories always base on assumptions, etc.
I am not religious person or with deep religious knowledge to argue sufficiently on this line, so i have to leave the arguments as above.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Remus
Isn't that also a sacrilege?.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No.
Not sacrilege from the perspective of Christianity and Islam?. Not at all, not even something similar along the line.? I am not a theologian, it's hard for me to say...
quote:
We are constantly tampering with our bodies, from cutting our nails to having surgery. Posthumanism is just the next step.
Cutting your nails didn't change your original human body. And having surgery without adding something artificial into your body didn't change your body either.
quote:
Implants do not disobey the laws of nature. On the contrary, they follow it.
For Naturalists, for an example, everything have a beginning and an end. Extending your life beyong the normal through technology (anti-aging therapies, etc) is disobeying the law of nature. Also when changing the genetic of your pre-born baby. It will disturb the balance in nature or the ecosystems on earth. For example - overpopulation.
quote:
No. New technology has always been introduced to the upper classes first, from the automobile to computers.
That doesn't deny the fact of widening social inequalities, and other social problems arise from the inequalities.
quote:
There are other things, such as nuclear energy, that, in my opinion, pose a far greater threat than those you mentioned.
No one know what kind of even more destructive weapon will emerge along with new findings in science.
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:16 am |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
...i believe our adaptation capabilities and willingness to change is one of the reason why we human can exist longer (far from extinction)...
Don't kid yourself. We humans are infants on this planet. We have only been around, as a species, for few tens of thousands of years. There are animal species that were around for hundreds of millions of years.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
God already providing a very fitting body for us, for both man and woman.
That is not really true. There are many obvious deficiencies in bodily design that could be done much better if we were to design a human body today, from scratch. Just because "God" gave us our bodies, it doesn't mean they can't be made better. Especially since this same "God" also gave us intelligence and ability to figure out how to improve our bodies. One could argue that it would be a sin not to use such a gift, since "obviously" we were intended to be capable of doing so.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
Is there any sayings in Bible, or Koran, that teach us to abadon or modifying our body which is giving by God? Isn't that also a sacrilege?.
Most religious text are too confusing and ambiguous that they need to be "interpreted" by religious authorities. This is why there are so many sub-religions in the world (one of each "interpretation" of a religious text). Each of these sub-religions may interpret the original text such that it does allow for, or disallows modifying our bodies.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
- For naturalists, why we should tempering with nature and the original human body?, or disobeying the law of nature?
The law of the nature is the survival of the fittest. If taking drugs or modifying our bodies makes us more fit, then so be it.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
- At least initially, the techologies will only available to wealthy people. Most middle class population, and especially lower income groups won't have access to those benefits for a long time. This certainly will widening the social inequalities.
Wealth is only one measure of "power." The powerful are always those who will have an easier time procreating and futhering the race. This power is measured in many ways (wealth, size of your biceps, the colour of your plumage, etc), but it is always present. Such is reality of all life on this planet. Besides, socialism serves to erase the inequalities brought about by the greedy ways of the capitalists. It is the way of the future.
quote:
Originally posted by Remus
- Biotechnology, nanotechnology, and artificial intelligence pose serious risks of accidents and abuse. For example, the destructive uses of nanotechnology, or accidental release of a self-replicating nanobot into the environment, or Biological warfare (capable to wipe out human race).
Biological warfare has existed for many years (hundreds of years). People have been meddling with Ebola and various other viruses for a long time. Nuclear bombs, TNT, flintlock rifles, spears... All inventions that were meant to be beneficial to the creator, but ended up being used against them eventually (except the nuke, but that's only a matter of time). There is no reason to believe that new technologies will be any different.
Now, in all fairness, I should present a counter argument as well.
Probably the most significant obstacle I see is the pervasivness of any new technology, coupled by unscrupulous international mega-corporations feeding off of a misguided concept of global free market in order to pad their pockets with profits, without asking questions. Why this is a problem is diversity. Currently, the humanity supports such a concept as cultures, without even being aware of it, for a good reason. It is a species defense mechanism against over-specialization. It ensures that, no matter what calamity befalls humanity, some part of it will survive and replenish the numbers in time. Such distinctions in global communalization is superceded by the globalization fueling mega-corporations. They do not care what colour you are, or what language you speak, or what food you eat or do not. They will sell you the same product, no matter what. Now, if this product modifies human bodies in a significant manner, we, as a human race, open ourselves to a voulnerability that potentially may wipe us all out. Indiscriminately! Perhaps this is why it will be a good thing that only some people may afford such wonderful futuristic products at first. Unbeknownst to them, they will be guinea pigs for the rest of the humanity.
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 5:01 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
Very good arguments i must say.
It is not often we have a computer game that come with thoughtful story, more serious and academical subject. They make you contemplate about the issue presented in the games even long after you finish them. Two of those games in my opinion is Planescape: Torment and Deus Ex.
The scriptwriter for Deus Ex was Sheldon Pacotti; now he is the lead writer for DX2 beside few other writers. He wrote one interesting article this year, regarding the relationship between technology and human:
quote:
Are we doomed yet?
The computer-networked, digital world poses enormous threats to humanity that no government, no matter how totalitarian, can stop. A fully open society is our best chance for survival.
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2003/03/31/knowledge/
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 6:03 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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quote:
Originally posted by Remus
The statement "Only time will tell." So many things in this world that science failed to answer, or simply unanswearable. Can you prove something abstract such as "Love". That is why and one of the weakness often used by religiously groups to counter most thinkings in science and technology. The science answering something without basing on truth as in Bible and such, but always base on limited experiments, with several selected samples, with questionable and flawed methods, with theories always base on assumptions, etc.
I agree with you. Science can't answer that question. But time can.
quote:
Not sacrilege from the perspective of Christianity and Islam?. Not at all, not even something similar along the line.? I am not a theologian, it's hard for me to say...
I don't know about Islam, but it surely isn't sacrilege in Christianity.
quote:
Cutting your nails didn't change your original human body. And having surgery without adding something artificial into your body didn't change your body either.
What about braces some people have to put when they go to the dentist? That looks pretty artificial to me!  What about those devices that help people hear better (for the hearing impared)?
quote:
Also when changing the genetic of your pre-born baby. It will disturb the balance in nature or the ecosystems on earth. For example - overpopulation.
I agree completely. I dare say that's one of the "side effects" of Medicine: overpopulation.
quote:
That doesn't deny the fact of widening social inequalities, and other social problems arise from the inequalities.
True, true...
quote:
No one know what kind of even more destructive weapon will emerge along with new findings in science.
You can trust scientist will definitely come up with something more destructive. Did you hear about the anti-matter weapons? Anyway, I was talking about current technology.
_________________
"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Tue Nov 11, 2003 8:13 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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There is no way to measure the effects of posthumanity by way of religious dogma.
None.
Whether an angel appeared to a man or the words were given directly by whatever god a religion venerates is irrelevant: the Deity is all knowing and all powerful but we are not. The man who received the message had to put it into terms he understood.
And so he applied context.
This context is thousands of years out of date.
A lot of problems with modern scientific conflict with religion would be avoided if the Deity would send another messenger to update things.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Wed Nov 12, 2003 6:16 am |
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Scribbles
Unsent
Joined: 25 Apr 2003
Posts: 1063
Location: Spokane, WA. US of A |
Im all for The Omar. We are all going to die out eventually, why not die making ourselves cool?
EDIT: amazing. does anyon here know how many movies are based on this or closely related to this subject?
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Broken in Exile |
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Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:35 am |
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Moriarty
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 21 Jan 2002
Posts: 49
Location: Toronto |
A big part of me is just dying for some kickass nano-tech super powers, however, I'm going to have to side with the templars on this one.
My reasons are not philosophical nor are they theological. My primary concern is economic.
If posthumanism were to really come into being it would be a capital intensive industry. No mom and pop cyber-shops, we would be faced with something on the scale of Pharmeceutical companies (I imagine that it would actually grow out of that industry). If we begin to apply genetic or nano-mechanical alterations to our bodies we will be giving huge amounts of influence to the organizations that hold the patents for those alterations. Remember what a pain it was to run netscape on windows '98? Imagine the same situation but this time only one company produces an antibiotic that works on your kids. How much can they charge you?
Sticking with the example of a modified child, what other addons could a company sell. Bye-bye breast milk, hello patented protein drink; No more sleep, just two hours in her Phizer refreshment chamber and She's ready to face the day. How long would the waranty on a child be? Twenty years? Thirty? How long untill you have to send it back to the manufacturer for repairs.
Ultimately, post-human technologies will not be produced with the intention of making human life better, rather they will be intended to increase the profits of the makers. As much as one might hope that consumers will be able to dictate terms to producers, I can't imagine that it would happen. Not today, when companies influence us with nothing but clever marketing. Certainly not tomorrow, when they are the ones designing us.
Since genetic engineering and nano-tech are most likely going to be part of out lives, I hope I'm wrong. Still, I'm a little worried. |
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Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:14 am |
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X_805
Village Dweller
Joined: 29 Dec 2002
Posts: 7
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I would say post-humanism is not wrong based on either a scientific or a Christian view (I don't know about other religions since I'm not of them).
Scientifically, it's just making the human race more survivable and I don't think that contradicts any laws of nature that we know of anyway.
Religiously (from a Christian viewpoint), it's not wrong because we are just using our brains (which God gave us) to improve ourselves.
As long as it does more good than harm, I think it's okay.
Of course, economically, I don't think we are ready for posthumanism yet.
And I would support both the Omar and the Templars. Both are rational views of how the human race should progress. They should both go their own ways. |
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Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:28 am |
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