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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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A friend and I have been talking about various fictional characters, most of whom are comic book characters, and the mythology behind them. Lately, we have be struck by the efficiency that Marvel has in bring its characters to movies. Whereas DC comics seems to be having problems. But when I saw that the Marvel character, Elektra, has a movie; I just had to ask a bigger audience.
Why can't Wonder Woman have a movie? Blade has one. Punisher has one. Daredevil has one. Catwoman has one. ELEKTRA has her own movie. I know that Wonder Woman is a bigger character than all of these people, so what gives?
My friend says that it is because her costume, which is basically a bikini, won't translate onto the silver screen. I agree the costume is a problem but there are other possibilities. Ineptitude at DC is one of them. What do you think?
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
Mon Jan 31, 2005 4:42 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Heh, I got half way through your post and I immediately thought "costume". But what else? Hmm... I don't know. Any Wonder Woman movie is going to have big shoes to fill because there is so much history for the character. They'd need to break down the character to her basic essence. A lot of characters are easy to do because their stories are simple. Something "bad" happened to them and they fight bad guys. But Wonder Woman isn't just a super hero. She's an ambassador for the Amazons. She didn't have a bad experience that lead to her becoming a super hero. She went out into the "world of men" as a representative of her people to be a symbol for virtue, honor and peace.
It sounds interesting, but how do you translate that to the silver screen? There are no basic emotions that they can evoke easily. Hate, fear, guilt. None of these apply to Wonder Woman. She is intrinsicly noble and honorable. She fights for what she believes is right because that is who she is.
She doesn't fit into the standard Hollywood formula. So either we need a new formula or a Wonder Woman movie will have to focus on something other than her bashing the bad guy's face in because he made her mad.
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
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Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:11 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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You are right. I know Wonder Woman is not an alien, but she is not a normal human either. Superman has the same kind of "alien" background. He also has no real reason why he fights crime, other than the fact that he can.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 5:20 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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And thus Superman movies, if released for the first time now instead of in the 70s, wouldn't do as well.
Superman is from another planet and he's the shining example of everything America loves to imagine itself. He was raised on a farm (honest, hard working) by parents of incredible nobility ("no action without consequence", responsible, caring, supportive). He embodied the feeling at the time that small town people were good people ... away from the confusion and decadence of the big city.
He's always been meant to be a role-model ... a hero. While some storylines have diverged a little (a few alternate universe stories in particular) he's always been meant to be held as a shining example to kids everywhere: Be selfless, humble, and hard working and YOU will be a hero.
Wonder Woman is a hero/role-model figure, too. She was introduced in the 40s and was nowhere NEAR as meek and submissive as every other female character in comics to that point. She was an amazonian warrior-princess who could deflect bullets with her bracelets, break chains as easily as thread, and pound the hell out of Germans and Japanese on a regular basis. That said reading the Golden Age comics will make any modern person wince at the blatant sexism... but you have to take it for what it is: In a time when women were highly encouraged to work mostly to meet a husband and have children she bowed to no-one, kept her head up high, and fought for truth, justice, and the American way as hard as Superman or Batman.
I doubt the costume is a problem... nobody really came down hard on it in the 70s when Lynda Carter played her on TV. Why would it look less goofy on the big screen? Nobody seemed to care that Superman wore blue spandex and a red cape.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 8:31 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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You are right. But Wonder Woman not being meek and submissive doesn't make her the maverick that she was in the 1940's. A woman who doesn't bow to any man isn't a big deal. It also isn't as attractive to the primary viewers of action films and comic book characters, men.
I do believe that the Superman films, if released today, would do wonderfully (no pun intended). I have learned not to underestimate the dedication of the average American patriot nor their propensity to believe that we are heirs to the world. Superman symbolizes all of that better than Uncle Sam himself and thus would be greeted by HUGE audiences, probably as big as Spider-Man. However, I readily admit the story of Superman is not nearly as good as the story of Spider-Man.
As Xen mentioned, Wonder Woman was born out of a sense of womens' liberation. Those forces are not as strong as they once were, no, it would be more correct to say that those forces have nearly run their course and come to fruition in America. Thus, Wonder Woman's being a woman is not a selling point by itself. Her character would have to play another angle; and possibly change away from what is currently written in the comics.
The costume goes to sex. It is wildly sexy. BTW, a man wearing spandex and a cape has nowhere near the sexual connotation that a woman in a bikini has. Wonder Woman is not thought of as a character who uses seduction as a weapon or a selling point. Putting her on the screen in her current costume would force both of those into reality; changing her character in the process. I do think they could sucessfully change it to something else though.
P.S. in the 70's and 80's when Linda Carter was playing Wonder Woman, models and actresses were thicker. Today, they are small to the point of being scrawny. I can't think of a actress who fits the Wonder Woman profile and can "fill" her costume.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Thu Feb 10, 2005 10:10 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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The costume is more conservative than most of what gets worn on MTV ...
What might have been unconservative or more acceptable in a circus performer in the 40s certainly is nothing to today:
Golden Age Wonder Woman
And how much has that costume changed in 60 years?
Not a whole lot
It's a one piece swimsuit, not a bikini ... appropriate for fighting crime in? I don't know about that... but I do know that compared to other popular comic characters there is no contest in modesty.
Yes, I agree that Wonder Woman is a character out of time and that would probably be the best reason to hold back a movie. The ideals she stands for have come to be... there are women who are happy with whatever they do ... be it doctor, lawyer, pilot, or mother ... and that was really her entire message to young women: Make whatever you do YOUR choice.
It's a pity that were a movie to be released now so many would go 'oh, another strong female *yawn*' without understanding that Wonder Woman (who was inspired by people such as Amelia Earhart and several women's right activists in the late 30s) came first.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Fri Feb 11, 2005 3:04 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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The current Wonder Woman costume is perhaps not the most revealing of female comic characters, but it is not far from it. There is certainly a long list of female characters whose outfits show less skin than does Wonder Woman's. Now, her costume shows even more skin than it used to. The change from the skirt to a bathing suit bottom is a major change in my opinion. It uncovers all of her hips and most of her butt. Although I do admit, you can see that much skin and more in movies today, that is not the point.
The question is what kind of character shows that much skin. When that much skin is shown it is a deliberate attempt to introduce the anticipation of sex. Sex sells, but Wonder Woman doesn't or shouldn't need sex to be powerful. So the question is can a woman in a movie wear this...
...without causing the minds of nearly all male viewers to go directly to sex. Half of men automatically think of sex when they see a real-live woman anyway, no matter what she is wearing. Can a woman wear that and still be viewed as the wholesome image of honor, womanhood, humanity, and innocence that Wonder Woman is supposed to represent.
Is Wonder Woman still the ultimate female role model? Women already know that they can do what the want. Is Wonder Woman doing what women want to do? She is very aggressive and confrontational. Will that appeal to a large audience?
Another major questions currently unanswered....Who is her love interest. You must have one in a movie. Traditionally it has been thought that she would eventually hook up with Superman. Supes is married now, so that is no dice. In the comics now they are trying to match her with Batman. That won't work; it is actually against the character of Batman. Whoever it is has to be very powerful, and the decision has to stick for a long time.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Fri Feb 11, 2005 5:16 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
I just dont think there is a real demand for her, quite frankly. Sure I thought as a young boy that she was good looking, and I still do for that matter, Linda Carter is a beautiful lady. I didnt fantasize about teaming up with her as a fellow superhero to save the world tho. I didnt dream of having a golden lasso or an invisible jet, or bullet-deflecting bracers, you know. I had no interest in watching the show, nobody I knew did male or female. I never read her comic. We were totally into Batman, Spiderman, and the Hulk on television, and in comics I was an Iron Man freak. Most young boys my age that I knew werent interested in the least bit by Wonder Woman, we never even brought her up, much less pined for whatever Wonder Woman paraphenalia was available or waxed eloquent of her abilities or victories over the bad guys.
What little boy would have been caught dead in the little tiara she wore? I sure as heck was loaded with wrist-mounted web launchers and capes tho. Wonder Woman has always been more of a hero to adults than children if you ask me. The girls were playing with dolls and little tea sets otherwise, not running around fighting bad guys. Sure there are exceptions to the rule.
Little boys and for that matter, little girls, like powerful male heroes to come save the day. Then they grow up to be big boys and big girls who like powerful male heroes to save the day. Like they envision their father, the archetypical soldier, the firefighter, the cop. It's called human nature or something, and it's been this way since the dawn of man and woman. Both Catwoman and Elektra are riding the coattails, if you ask me, of their male hosts Batman and Daredevil. Wonder Woman has no such coattails on which to ride.
Yes she is a part of the American superhero pantheon, and she most certainly deserves her place in Superhero Valhalla, I wont argue with anyone about that. But she did not achieve the same level of stand-alone glory and commercial success that heros such as Spidey, Batman, Superman, and the Hulk did, particularly during the late 70's- early 80's comic hero resurgence of which we and certain studio executives are all looking back now on in our older years as well.
Where the hell did Elektra suddenly come from then? Catwoman? Are the coattails that strong? Yes and no. It's called sex, my fine-feathered friends. Theyre sexy. Feline. Leather. Rowwwllll. Elektra... sexy. Martial arts have made a huge comeback in the new millenium, high kicking sword and sai wielding women are a valuable and fun mix. Even Lara Croft may be thrown into that mix as well. Theyre almost anti-heroines, The Bride in Kill Bill is the equivalent of the new female "superhero" in a way. Sadly enough, Wonder Woman is a relic of the past, partly because of her unequivocal good-naturedness if you ask me. They all , male and female altruistic heros, really are becoming a thing of the past, given way to the anti-hero. Just like the biblical antichrist was to rise, I think in the halls of the Justice League there were whispers of the coming antihero.
Just for the record, I'm all for the old-style costume ='.'=
edit- for flow and all that
_________________
“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Mon Feb 14, 2005 8:20 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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No, there is no demand for her ... and I think in some ways that's a shame. I'm not saying I'm a big Wonder Woman fan myself ... I like the character and all but I wouldn't track her outside of the Justice League in her own series (I'm more of a Marvel fan anyways... when I was collecting comics 10 to 20 years ago there was no contest in my mind in who had the better stories. DC really has kicked it up a notch, story wise, since then ... even Batman was pretty bad for a time because it happened to be the period where Azrael was Batman because Bruce Wayne had broken his back. Fans hated what Batman had become and demanded Bruce get better ... but it was still something like two years before he came back and kicked Azrael's murderous Punisher-esque rampage).
Wonder Woman should appeal to the crowd that loved Xena, really. That should be her fanbase as Xena was very much a rip off of the first pop culture Warrior Princess. What kind of crowd demographics is that? I have no idea (but I doubt it's as lesbian-primary as the media would lead us to believe).
But since the 90s had a Xena with screen presence any attempt at a Wonder Woman movie would just look like a rip off. The screen franchise for WW ended in the 70s ... and we'll have to leave it there. One reason that other characters with movies or shows in the 60s/70s are doing well now is improvement in special effects (Spider-Man and the Hulk in particular .. but even the first two Batman movies benefitted)... there's really no special effect enhancement benefit for WW.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue Feb 15, 2005 3:31 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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I think you guys are 1)overestimating the demand required to make a successful movie, and 2) underestimating the popularity of Wonder Woman.
Most movies have no demand before they are made. Most of are about characters that have never been heard of, many are made specifically for that movie. What spikes demand for movies is the word that comes through grapevine that the movie is actually good. If they make a good product the movie would be a success.
Wonder Woman is the fourth most popular comic character. Now I don't mean that she has die hard fans, like Darth Vader has (it is hard for a boy to pretend that he is a woman when playing). I mean that if you were to walk up to someone who has never collected comics and ask them, "name five comic book characters," they would reply, "Superman, Spider-Man, Batman, Wonder Woman, err....The Joker." She has name recognition amongst the average American population and probably the average Canadian, as well. That would guarantee success and profit if the product is mediocre, and raving success if the movie is good.
I contend that the biggest problem is inefficiency at DC comics and thier inability to get their characters to the silver screen. There are issues that must be addressed first, costume, love interest, personality of the character etc. But these problems could be corrected, if DC would get its act together.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Tue Feb 15, 2005 5:53 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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I looked at the site behind sammy's link and I am now convinced. Wonder Woman is already a sex symbol.
I made a mistake above. When asked to name characters people will say "Wonder Woman" immediately behind Superman. So the response would be...Superman, Wonder Woman, Spider-Man, Batman,...err The Joker.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Tue Feb 15, 2005 11:55 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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Well, ask and ye shall receive. Wonder Woman is signed as a project and is currently in the 'find a director... oh yeah and a cast' phase (which means it won't be out before 2007-2008 at the earliest).
Directors being sought include Joss Whedon (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel, Firefly tv shows). Lead actresses been bounced around and rumored include: Sandra Bullock (most probable), Catherine Zeta-Jones, Cameron Diaz, the 'actress' who played Chyna in the WWF several years ago, Mandy Moore, Minnie Driver, and a host of unknowns/femme d'jour.
In short ... they have no clue... but it's solid enough to have earned a place on the Tonight Show monologue last night and stand up to a google search
http://www.comics2film.com/ProjectFrame.php?f_id=27 ... which I summarized.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:32 pm |
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Darrius Cole
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 04 May 2004
Posts: 406
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Now, if we can just get someone to turn out a good product that is not cheesy, we will be fine.
I am not surprised that they are working on this. It is not rocket-science. Elektra has a movie. If she can break even, Wonder Woman makes a killing.
_________________
Always with you what can not be done. Hear you nothing that I say? - Master Yoda
Only the powerful are free. - Darrius Cole |
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Fri Feb 25, 2005 3:56 pm |
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