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Mythrax
Village Dweller
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Toronto |
| Hiring Real People as Actors to play NPC's in MMORPGs ?? |
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<Disclaimer>
This is quoted from a post I made elsewhere in an attempt
to start some discussion on the idea of permanent death
being the necessary element to the evolving storytelling
aspect of MMORPG games. --
</Disclaimer>
Invitation to Discussion of Permanent Death In MMORPGs
I've played muds for over 10 years, and have played almost every mainstream MMORPG on the North American market. I believe that the missing element from an RPG vs Levelling 'ad nauseum' MMORPG game, is the idea of permanent character death.
Mentioning the phrase usually incites people to reflexively assume that perm character death could NEVER work in a game because it would drive away paying players. But I think it has been never been given serious treatment as a conceptual game element.
Consider the following.
-One of the primary appeals of an RPG game is the creation of a fictional character.
-perm character death was the norm in paper RPG games, and the appeal of the paper RPG game had a substantial impact, people continued to play D&D style paper games long after the death of well loved characters, the thrill of the game was in fact making characters, and making them meaningfull by adventuring, and sometimes retiring them ignominiously.
-Current MMORPG's suffer from a few conceptual difficulties, inflation of levels (both of players and monsters), inflationary hording of loot, repetitive quests and events, and the big question of whether or not to allow PvP, or PK gaming.
-The inflationary aspects of current MMO's are similar to nations printing their own money. There has to be a finite amount to give something value. The whole notion of meaning is that there is a start and end point, and the 'mean' occurs somewhere in-between. People are drawn to meaning, and character, otherwise Fantasy RPG's wouldn't exist.
-It is a measure of the immaturity of the MMORPG gaming genre and/or market, that no-one has taken a serious look at the potential implications of making a game with permanent character death. (Whether fantasy/magic resurrection or 'lag death' appeals process is included or not)
-It is a widely accepted conceit of writing drama that one of the fundamental hooks of a drama is the REAL possibility of losing a character that the reader identifies with. This element of risk makes the story INTERESTING.
-MMORPG's suffer from inconsistent levels of Role Playing given that people have different ideas of what appeals to them about the fantasy environment.
-The common element that draws people to a fantasy game, is the idea of pretending to be a svelte elven warrior princess, barbarian warrior, or effete and sinister mage.
-MMORPG's have a somewhat different dynamic than conventional drama most notably in the idea of timeline. However, since the readers are players, and are interacting and affecting the playing experience of other players playing at different times a timeline is hard to establish. The game designers are the storytellers from one level, but the notion of timeline that is critical to drama, is either absent, or absurdly predictably cyclical in games, hence the experience of 'camping'.
-Establishing a meaningful timeline is more likely in a game environment where characters and setting suffer the effects of 'mortality'. This is hard from a coding perspective, automating NPC's that grow old and die and unique time events. But one possible solution that has received press for the MMORPG industry is the idea of hiring 'in game actors/writers' to play NPC's and make the game 'come alive' with story and plot. This type of game dynamic would take the MMORPG industry out of the hands of coders, and make it more the domain of writers/actors and storytellers.
A game designed around the concept of permanent character death, with the interest level of the game focusing on story, and character creation, rather than endless acquisitiveness could potentially turn a huge corner on MMORPG gaming history.
PvP could be allowed but would be held in check by the reality that lvl 50 PK'ers just wouldn't live to rise to that ridiculous a level, and then mindlessly take out their own personal aggressions on hapless noobs just entering the game.
Character creation, focusing on individual uniqueness, emotes, and skills, could be the draw of the game, levelling can be part of the process. But in a perm death game, having a tavern full of 50th lvl mages, and lvl 100+ monsters hopping across the countryside wouldn't happen. A lvl 5 or 10 character would be significant. Characters could age. A real story timeline could be introduced.
Perhaps I'm being too 'literal' about the story and RPG aspects of the MMORPG genre. I believe that one of the current limits of the genre is overall motivation and age of most people drawn to fantasy. There is often a fairly prevalent adolescent notion of immortality, or lack of recognition of mortality, and the appeal of a consequence free virtual world, where one can become supremely powerful, is an essential part of the escapist appeals. But does the escape have to be all about levels and loot, or is it fundamentally about character, and the desire to BE someone else, if only for a short while.
Mythrax
_________________
In the search for meaning, which includes forays into the virtual world, play is the most effective form of learning. |
Sat Aug 23, 2003 4:43 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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It should be pointed out that very few game systems, pen and paper and otherwise, have permanent death.
D&D certainly doesn't... in all editions you can be raised or ressurrected or wished back if something REALLY FUBARed you.
The ones that do have permanent death (White Wolf, Shadowrun, Cyberpunk 2020) pride themselves on their harsh combat... combat is a last resort, not a first choice.
They're pen and paper versions of FPS. You see your opponent, you trigger your weapon, and your opponent dies.
Not a good MMORPG mechanic.
It's not the threat of permanent death that makes a game fun or thrilling, in my opinion. If I had to play a 60 hour game with no save game capabilities or 'if you die, we delete all your save games associated with that character' I would not be terrifically impressed with the game.
First off because it would be pathetically easy. It would have to be... you can't target 20 year veterns of tactical miniture combat as an audience. You have to target 9 years old this is my first CRPG... oh... charging someone with a bazooka across an open field is bad?
Second off because sometimes the phone rings and I die. It happens. I don't let the machine pick up and often I don't even bother fumbling for a pause button. I get up right away and answer. I've lost plenty of hardcore c haracters on Diablo 2 like that, which is fine... it's less fine single player or interactive MMORPG where my death can result in the deaths of others.
Third off because sometimes I really, really like jumping off cliffs or mountains or exploring territory in a MMORPG. Exploring would be a priviledge of the all powerful which is elitism at its finest and BORING AS HELL. MMORPG are bad enough with the 'the further from civilization you get , the more likly something will bite your head off... you must be strong to go to interesting places'. Adding the insult of 'you fool... you took 750 steps west of city newbieland and were eaten by a dragon. Thank you for your payment, please play again'
Lord I hated games without multiple lives for my quarter in arcades.
15 bucks is a whole lot of quarters.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:34 pm |
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Mythrax
Village Dweller
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Toronto |
You seem to have missed the point. I suppose I can just chalk you up as one of those people that just ASSUMES RPG's with character mortality can't work. Perhaps you are defending a vested interest in a particular game.
Permanent death IS a possible element of Pen and Paper games. Although people generally detested having to make a new character mid campaign, it did happen, and people often kept playing.
D&D type papers games also had the GM operating as an intermediary, and sometimes suspending the rules in order to prevent a stupid mistake from blowing a game.
Getting raised or resurrected was possible but at the discretion of the GM and the players you were gaming with, certainly a similar safety net could be applied to the MMORPG genre.
I like the comparison of harsh combat to pen and paper FPS, FPS games are by nature twitch games, about shooting everything that moves. RPG games are 'theoretically' about ROLE PLAYING. I would speculate that means playing 'characters'.
As to what good MMORPG mechanics are, it seems to be that there is a large consensus that current MMORPG mechanics are somewhat shallow and unsatisfying.
_________________
In the search for meaning, which includes forays into the virtual world, play is the most effective form of learning.
Last edited by Mythrax on Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:04 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:02 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
Isn't this topic better suits for General MMORPGs forums instead of here?
Anyway,
quote:
Mentioning the phrase usually incites people to reflexively assume that perm character death could NEVER work in a game because it would drive away paying players. But I think it has been never been given serious treatment as a conceptual game element.
Using the same reasoning, then how can you be so sure that permanent death will be welcome by many gamers? or assume that the MMORPG developers never given serious thought about incorporating permanent death feature?
Although TOEE is not another MMORPG, i think Troika are right to include "Iron Man" mode as an option, not something that necessary or a must when playing. |
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Sat Aug 23, 2003 6:56 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
You are a significantly more experienced MMO player than I so perhaps I just don't undertand some points but there seems to be a few assumptions you've made.
I agree with several of your points about motivation and repetition but many of them are problems with balance and/or the ingame economy and I can't see how introducing perma-death inherently fixes them.
quote:
PvP could be allowed but would be held in check by the reality that lvl 50 PK'ers just wouldn't live to rise to that ridiculous a level, and then mindlessly take out their own personal aggressions on hapless noobs just entering the game.
Why is this an absolute? It may not happen all that often but it certainly would happen - there's always a jerk somewhere.
At the end of the day, I don't see what's fun about putting a significant investment into developing a character and losing the lot. I absolutely think there should be enough penalty in death to add some meaning but I don't see the fun in losing everything.
quote:
A game designed around the concept of permanent character death, with the interest level of the game focusing on story, and character creation, rather than endless acquisitiveness could potentially turn a huge corner on MMORPG gaming history.
How does perma-death assist developers in implementing a fulfilling story? The problem as I see it is in implementing a story that's inclusive for thousands of players. I don't understand how perma-death transcends these issues. |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:40 am |
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Mythrax
Village Dweller
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Toronto |
Response to Remus:
Possibly this thread should be in MMORPG general. My bad.
Perhaps I'm getting pedantic about the idea of character, meaning and storytelling with respect to the idea of online role playing games.
I just am hoping that gaming matures from the arcade paradigm, like movies going from silent picture to more interesting forms of cinema.
Also I'm hoping to introduce discussion the potential negative impact non permanent character death games have on the story telling, role playing experience.
I suspect that my notions of literary standards for how to create character, and tell stories do not completely apply to the online medium. However the experience of 'mortality' itself is a fairly universal human experience, and is itself the basis for many forms of art, dramatic storytelling notwithstanding.
What I am suggesting is this, if people want more of a story experience, then the literary elements of storytelling will need to become more of the online gaming phenomenon. Notably essential in storytelling is the idea of a timeline. Timeline in the mortal experience is full of finite properties, both character and events. I don't think that issues of character and timeline can be achieved in MMORPGs without having character mortality.
I recognize that conceptually having characters die prematurely in game would be a significant deterrent given most gamers acquaintance with the current scenario. I hope however that as the gaming 'consumer' market matures; figuratively and literally, that they will start to crave more than just eyecandy, twitch, and acquisition based gaming.
It is possible that lowest common denominator factors will always mean that the game distributors cater to the crudest tastes. But that does not mean that the market itself can't evolve and develop more sophisticated interests.
_________________
In the search for meaning, which includes forays into the virtual world, play is the most effective form of learning. |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:43 am |
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Mythrax
Village Dweller
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Posts: 4
Location: Toronto |
The balance problems that affect gamplay and in-game economics exist because 1) balance is not possible in a system of continual inflation, ie levels and loot without end , and 2) because the rules of economics that people innately understand are all based on systems of scarcity and limited resources. 3) Games where characters have no upper limit on how uber they can become in terms of levels and loot become ultimately unbalanced in favour of those high level players.
With respect to PvP dynamics in an MMORPG with mortal characters the possibility of having a player behave like a homicidal maniac would still exist, but so would the possibility of a posse of low level characters exacting justice on said maniac.
Finally permanent death is not meant as a conceptual design change to make it easier for developers to implement a story. Fundamentally its about taking story repetition out of the hands of programmers who think in loops and cycles, and putting story into the hands of storytellers, whether they are players or paid actor/directors pretending to be wise wizards, evil overlords or whatever.
_________________
In the search for meaning, which includes forays into the virtual world, play is the most effective form of learning. |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:58 am |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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| Re: Questioning Assumptions |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mythrax
You seem to have missed the point. I suppose I can just chalk you up as one of those people that just ASSUMES RPG's with character mortality can't work. Perhaps you are defending a vested interest in a particular game.
And I suppose I could just chalk you up as a purple chicken beast from planet Xenon who is out to destroy all roleplaying in existance. Neither would be true but we all need our assumptions.
quote:
Originally posted by Mythrax
Permanent death IS a possible element of Pen and Paper games. Although people generally detested having to make a new character mid campaign, it did happen, and people often kept playing.
D&D type papers games also had the GM operating as an intermediary, and sometimes suspending the rules in order to prevent a stupid mistake from blowing a game.
Getting raised or resurrected was possible but at the discretion of the GM and the players you were gaming with, certainly a similar safety net could be applied to the MMORPG genre.
You can't staff a MMORPG without seriously eating into your profits. People log in at all hours of the day and night. You can't have people running overwatch waiting to see if 'damn... he failed his save but he's doing a great job... he shouldn't die'.
What could possibly be the criteria for that 'fudge'? I've been a DM for pen and paper for 15 years.. I know when to let a character die and when to lower the save difficulty to keep a story flowing. How could you possibly adjucate that online? Who decides who lives or who dies?
Who possesses the power of discretion? It's the most powerful ability a human being could have regardless of how it's used. If an online GM is having a bad day and says "Screw it... rocks fall... everyone is dead." and justifies it for advancement of the story would it mollify those who died permanently?
MMORPG are so big that with a computer as GM assistant you need to have concrete rules. A computer knows no discretion and there simply are too many people doing too many things for any number of people to make rulings.
As for putting your faith in the PC clerics to come and raise you, etc? I'm certain excellent players would do so without question and without expectation of reward. I am also certain that unscrouplous ones would extort you for it. Both are acceptable within the wonderful boundries of being 'in character' but one is more likely to kill the enjoyment of one of the parties than the other.
quote:
Originally posted by Mythrax
I like the comparison of harsh combat to pen and paper FPS, FPS games are by nature twitch games, about shooting everything that moves. RPG games are 'theoretically' about ROLE PLAYING. I would speculate that means playing 'characters'.
As to what good MMORPG mechanics are, it seems to be that there is a large consensus that current MMORPG mechanics are somewhat shallow and unsatisfying.
I've seen Shadowrun games that devolved into shoot everything that moves at cons. Some of my funnest roleplaying moments were at such times... whether it be by scathing anti-corp rant while emptying clip or jumping into a hallway and screaming "It is better to die for ones friends than for ones friends to die for your cowardice!" and chucking grenades until everyone else was clear... and rolling well enough to take multiple bullet wounds while doing so and keep on chucking.
It's actually easy to get into character during a good FPS. While playing Aliens vs Predator there were times when it was very easy to take on the mindset of the Predator when choosing targets, etc.
You can play character in any type of game. You get out of a game what you put into a game. It's always been this way and it always will be. No amount of design will change this. There's no problem with catering to the common denominator.. no game forces you to act in any particular manner.
If you like permanent death, then permanently die. Die, respawn, give a heroic deathspeech if you haven't already and delete your character. Nothing is stopping someone from getting that much into character in any current MMORPG at all.
If the current system is hollow and lifeless it's because we make it hollow and lifeless as players. Developers give us a sandbox, a bucket, and a shovel. Whether we decide to build a sandcastle or see an featureless sandbox filled with other kids not building sandcastles either is entirely up to us.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:03 am |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
I dont really want to get into a discussion about this since its way too in-depth for me.
But I do think that perma-death does sound very intruiging and I would definately be interested in trying a game like that. No idea if I would end up liking it though.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Tue Aug 26, 2003 1:35 am |
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