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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by piln
Sorry, I've not played DD, and I really don't know anything about it, so it wouldn't be wise (or useful) of me to comment.
It was the decision of their German publisher, CDV.
And now it was the developer's idea to change the name their new game, Riftrunner, to Beyond Divinity. Ugh.
quote:
Originally posted by piln
blah, blah, blah. Stuff about publishers. blah, blah, blah.
That has nothing to do with my disagreement with the people in this thread.
Publishers can do what they want. They're the ones holding the big money bag that developers are dipping their hands into for funding. Publishers want a return for that money lent, just like a bank will charge interest on loans. I see nothing wrong with that.
quote:
Originally posted by piln
quote:
Originally posted by Val
Prove that you can walk the walk and not just talk the talk.
When i first read that, I thought you were saying that to me, but it's about developers proving themselves, right? Right?? If not, I'm a little scared... 
quote:
Originally posted by Korplem
 God blesses everyone...
That he does. 
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Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:58 pm |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
It's a shame more developers can't deal directly with willing investors besides publishers. CDV's going to run Larian's next game into the ground with another terrible name.
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:44 pm |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
Out of curiousity, what was Div Div's original name?
_________________
If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 10:53 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
A nice big generalisation follows from me but I hope it's fairly close to reality...
North American (yes, I'm lumping Canada in) games development is more established and advanced than many parts of Europe (and I'm ignoring Japan because I just don't understand their market). Costs are higher which means projects are generally more expensive. Because the market is advanced, there's a high expectation of polish - and polish is generally expensive. Bioware, for example, has grown to a company of 170 people - a decent sized business in anyone's language and one that requires a regular and predictable income stream to pay for those staff - including ancilliary staff like personal assistants and Human Resources that come with a company of that size.
In Eastern Europe, Russia etc, games development is a fledgling industry with lots of small start-up companies. I guess Germany and Belgium are much closer to North America but still not as expensive. The European games that have been mentioned here have been developed by relatively small development houses and I imagine in many cases they've operated on shoe-string budgets. Being small companies in lower-cost environments means they can take risks developing games their NA conterparts would find too expensive for the return.
Small companies also "multi-task" more to get the job done - Kai Rosencrantz from Piranha Bytes wrote the music score and did particle effects and sound effects in Gothic, for example. Now, he did an outstanding job IMO, but Bioware would have called for Jeremy Soule for the soundtrack in a heartbeat. The general result in NA is a more polished but considerably more expensive development.
That lack or polish - be it interface, graphics or just language conversion - hurts the NA sales of those products. But the RPG genre is a little more "hardcore" than other genre's. We're happy with Divinity's 2D graphics because of the rich, interactive gameworld.
Now, I need Gorath to correct all my assumptions and guesses about games development is Europe.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:08 pm |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Hmmm, that DD thing is an odd one. I'd love to have heard the meeting where they decided on the name change.
quote:
Originally posted by Val
quote:
Originally posted by piln
blah, blah, blah. Stuff about publishers. blah, blah, blah.
That has nothing to do with my disagreement with the people in this thread.
Publishers can do what they want.
Well, when you put it like that, it does sound kind of irrelevant. Are you sure I said that? It doesn't sound like me (not enough words  )
Publishers are well within their legal rights to do business the way they do, so this leads us to the question of whether something is OK or a good idea just because the law allows it... and that's probably something we shouldn't get into (at least not in this thread) as it could go on forever. 
Suffice to say that I win and western publishers are horrible and ugly.
(wonder if I got away with that?)
quote:
Originally posted by Val
quote:
Originally posted by Korplem
God blesses everyone...
That he does.
Except the guys who came up with the name "Beyond Divinity." Boy, I bet he's mad! |
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Wed Dec 24, 2003 11:15 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
@Namirrha: It's not CDV this time. The developers wanted the name of the game to have a connection to Divine Divinity.
@Korplem: Divinity: The Sword of Lies
@piln: If I invest money in an idea that someone promises me will double my money and they can show me similar things that were successful, then why would that not be a good idea? It only becomes a bad idea when the market gets saturated and consumers move on to the next greatest thing.
quote:
Originally posted by piln
Suffice to say that I win and western publishers are horrible and ugly.
(wonder if I got away with that?)
When snowmen line the streets of Hell.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:11 am |
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piln
High Emperor
Joined: 22 May 2003
Posts: 906
Location: Leeds, UK |
Well, my PC clock just turned midnight, so I'm gonna wish you all a Merry Christmas and I'll return with my army of fireproof snowmen in a few days. Shame, cos I can tell Val was just about to cave in 
Have fun everyone, adios for now  |
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Thu Dec 25, 2003 12:29 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Da' nile ain't just a river in Egypt. 
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Thu Dec 25, 2003 5:13 am |
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Bytespawn
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 295
Location: Belgium |
1)Wow, a post about the fact games that do not come fom america turned into an internatianal conflict, if you look at it like that, that has to mean something? 
2) jeez, i didn't know divine divinity was that popular among you, after all, it's only a simple 2-d rpg. But hey, it comes from Belgium, so i guess it's OK.
and i really don't know anything about it , but is divine divinity from the same developers as beyond divinity (Larian)?
and yes, the name divine divinity really sucks.
3) the original topic: Germany maybe produces better games, because nearly all games you said, were from the middleages in europe, so we know more about the history of the goths, visigoths, odoakar (to name a few) than in America. it's just a suggestion. (never knew my exams of history would actually be useful someday  )
4) i'm not a racist or anything but i like to laugh at people who insult an entire country and i like to laugh at people who are actually insulted 'in the name of their country' we are all brothahs, we must help eachotah and da people and da poor ~Daron, Gothic 2
( merry christmas )
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One blade good, two blade better |
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Thu Dec 25, 2003 6:51 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
1. Did you bother to read my posts? 
2. Yes, Divine Divinity was developed by Larian Studios.
3. That is irrelavant. All that one needs to make something similar to an ancient culture are some good history books and taking a look at the art and writtings of that era.
4. If one does not speak out against such blatant and wrong stereotypes, then you accept them with your silence.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound= |
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Fri Dec 26, 2003 6:20 pm |
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goshuto
Wanderer
Joined: 29 May 2002
Posts: 1142
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quote:
Originally posted by Bytespawn
i like to laugh at people who insult an entire country and i like to laugh at people who are actually insulted 'in the name of their country'
Then I'm sure you were thoroughly entertained while reading this thread.
_________________
"Tree stuck in cat. Firemen baffled."--Simcity 3K
"Life can only be understood backwards; but it must be lived forwards."--Soren Aabye Kierkegaard |
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Fri Dec 26, 2003 8:40 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
Now, I need Gorath to correct all my assumptions and guesses about games development is Europe.
I don´t think there´s much to correct.
The number of German developers shrunk by 30-50% in the last 2 years, due to many reasons.
First of all all but two devs (I´m aware of) missed the train to the big console franchises. That´s where the money is made. Take 2 Vienna (Max Payne XBox) and Factor 5 (many million sellers --> Star Wars license) are doing very well.
Secondly most devs don´t have access to the top publishers. Can you sell a million units if the publisher is JoWooD or CDV? The answer is: possibly but very, very unlikely. Both are pretty strong in Germany but rather irrelevant in most foreign territories. Some medium to big devs (according to German standards) go a different way now. Ascaron (Sacred, Patrician, Port Royale, ... ), Zuxxez (Knightshift) and Silver Style (The Fall) license their games individually for each territory, to maximize profits.
Thirdly most devs have to operate on tight budgets. This is only partly compensated by the lower development costs. I wouldn´t say a German AAA title like 1503 AD for 5.5 Mio EUR looks as spectacular as EA´s 12 Mio $ titles. Now imagine what small devs without a million selling franchise have to do. I´m pretty sure that games with budgets over 2 Mio EUR are the exception. Of course sometimes surprises happen. The Fall has big budget for a RPG (at least 2.5 Mio EUR), Sunflowers funds 3 new AAA titles (Anno NNNN, Anno - War, Paraworld) with the money earned with 1503 AD, Ubi funds Far Cry, which does not look worse than Doom 3 or HL 2, the SpellForce success will spawn a few other titles.
Also, it seems many devs and publishers simply don´t do their homework. How much more successful could G2 be with better interface, support and documentation, not to talk about proper marketing? Why is X², reportedly the best space sim since Elite, so unaccessible? Where is SpellForce´s skirmish mode? These are points I wouldn´t list under 'polish'. A good interface, skirmish mode and quicksave are standards which have to be met, not optional polish.
The lack of polish is somewhat compensated by the more interesting game concepts compared to the projects funded by the big publishers. EA wouldn´t have made a SpellForce, an X² or any of Ascaron´s games. The situation could improve if the smaller devs and publishers concentrated on their strength and the global players´ weaknesses. All big publishers do not give a damn about their customers. They deliver mostly shallow, uninspired products for a mainstream audience (exception: Ubi and many Japanese companies) and their community interaction is near zero. I´m sure a profitable niche could be found for games moving between 100k and 500k units for full price if devs and publishers simply avoided all the simple mistakes and improved support and marketing.
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Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:08 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
quote:
Originally posted by Gorath
Also, it seems many devs and publishers simply don´t do their homework. How much more successful could G2 be with better interface, support and documentation, not to talk about proper marketing? Why is X², reportedly the best space sim since Elite, so unaccessible? Where is SpellForce´s skirmish mode? These are points I wouldn´t list under 'polish'. A good interface, skirmish mode and quicksave are standards which have to be met, not optional polish.
Yes, you're right. My question is - why? Bernd Lehann from Egosoft says they deliberately avoided a mouse-pointer in any part of X2 to improve immersion. Frankly, he's just plain wrong. I suspect that's just marketing spin to cover the fact they re-used the menu structure from X:BTF / X:T and saved the development time on a new interface.
Or do they really believe their own hype (same thing probably goes for Gothic/2)?
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:38 pm |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
I rest my case!! Thanks Gorath, well said.
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Sat Dec 27, 2003 11:40 pm |
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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
And now it was the developer's idea to change the name their new game, Riftrunner, to Beyond Divinity. Ugh.
True, but as always there can be a different reason to this than the most obvious one. Someone who searches deep enough at the right places might be able to find it.
In addition to that, names grow on you 
And I agree that publishers are in their full right to demand delivery of a game from the developer. Mostly games don't make their deadline and are delayed. Every month it is delayed it costs the publisher money. In a business where money is tight, a publisher needs to bring games to the market that deliver some money or they die. And as long as we are buying games that are buggy or lack content then why shouldn't they.
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Kewl quotes:
I often have an odd sense of humor - Roach
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Reports Myrthos for making me scared and humbled at the mere sight of his name - kayla |
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Sun Dec 28, 2003 10:34 am |
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