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niteshade
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100
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I've mentioned this before, but the market for turn based RPGs is currently being tapped to a very large extent by the console market. I'd say for every one mainstream turn based RPG that comes out on the PC, about 10 come out for the console games. Some of them are pretty major sellers too. So clearly a very large market for them does exist, it's just that somehow the PC can no longer succesfully tap into it.
My personal theory on this is that the turn based console RPGs are generaly made in Japan and they don't have the same problem when it comes to releasing games unfinished. Unlike PC RPGS, console RPGs tend to be not only finished and well polished, but also possessing a very impressive amount of detail and fine tuning. As a result they make more money because they have less dismal flops and poor PR. But that's just my theory and could be completely wrong. |
Wed Sep 07, 2005 4:10 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Awful.
quote:
Yet, post against such things as slower game play, deep and involving dialog/plot and any kind of character management. I hate to be the one to crush your opinion of yourself but if you disagree with the above you’re not a ‘RPer’.
Hahaha... I love it when people desperately try to pretend that they define what role play is or isn't for others.
So because people don't like slow primitive gameplay, which not only removes from realism, but also often is quite exploitable, they don't know how to act a role? Sorry but all credibility was just destroyed right there.
Thinking that the only way to go to make a RPG is to write novels with pictures is ludicrous at best.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 5:43 pm |
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doctor_kaz
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 108
Location: West Virginia, USA |
I agree with the general idea of the article, but unfortunately, it's peeing in the wind. The Baldurs Gate/Fallout style RPG is pretty much dead. The twitch gamer has basically won. I think that the best that we can hope for, from American companies at least, is compromises like Kotor that sort of blend the old and the new. Although Bioware does seem to be refocusing on the OC for Dragon Age, and there are a couple of European RPG's that look very promising (like The Witcher).
It takes more than a good story, to me, to make a good RPG. Divine Divinity had an average story, to me, but it was a great RPG. Icewind Dale 2 was very enjoyable despite its crappy story, and so was Morrowind (for me, at least). You've also got to have a good character development system, a nicely simulated world with lots of exploration to do, and you've got to have a good interface. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:54 pm |
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lostzac
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
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quote:
I think that the best that we can hope for, from American companies at least, is compromises like Kotor that sort of blend the old and the new.
Well I hope the game were working on dosent disapoint you. If all goes as planned, the user will be able to decide on combat rather turn based or real time. The only thing i am having problems with is how much control. I think the moral system I preposed, and am scripting out is a great idea for balance in a turn base game. In the end I am hoping the system works in a way, taht you play the party leader, not the party. Giving commands and making the choices, but not all the henchmen will always follow the commands or like the choice's you make and what they will do will be based on your leadership score vrs thier moral score.
I am still in the beginning stages of designing it, why i preposed the question I did. What would you all like in a turn based combat system.
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:05 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
Yes.
To turn based games, that is.
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:22 pm |
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Guest
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Brilliant article.
Briosafreak |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:52 pm |
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niteshade
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100
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To be honest I tend to shudder a little when any game, strategy or RPG, has a choice between turn based or real time combat. This usually means one of two things.
1) The game is designed for one of the two, and the other was added on as a poorly designed afterthought.
2) The game puts some effort into both, and you end up with 2 mediocre control schemes instead of one good one.
The problem is that turn based and real time gaming are so radicaly different, that a system really can't work really well with each.I'm not sure that there has ever been a game that had both and actually succeeded at making it work. It's gotten so that it sets of huge warning bells in my mind whenever I see it. I enjoy turn based games, and I enjoy real time games, but I rarely enjoy games that give you a choice between the two. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:33 pm |
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lostzac
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
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I will admit your right on that part, it is hard. A huge problem lays in the way the attacks work..In most turn base they do the random die roll, and in most fps they do if the models vertex hit the opponets.
So what I am looking or attempting to do is in 3 stages.
I use model vertex to see if the opponet is in range,
it the vertex hits then the dice rolls to decide if it was a hit, a miss, or in the case of our game a hit that damages only the armor/weapon.
Once I get the bugs worked from that comes the next stage - Time.
I plan on setting a small pause - 1-2 seconds most between attacks. Its this variable I plan on manupulating for Turn Base....
Hence in a Real Time - The computer while the battle is raging will compile the data in one loop. keeping the real time feel. In turn base, it will compile each attack seperatly.
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:46 pm |
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niteshade
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100
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Well I don't think that's so much the problem. Most action RPGs (ie Diablo, Morrowind) do the same thing you described where they check to see if your attack is close enough that it could hit and then roll the dice to see if it actually hits. This is a big part of what defines a real time RPG really, as opposed to simply an action game.
The real problem is simply that encounters that are fun and well balanced in real time combat are rarely fun and well balanced in turn based combat, and vice versa. The two types of gameplay are really so radically different that I really don't think it's possible for a system to work for both. Certainly no other game has ever suceeded at it and they have pretty much all used the same system (where they add step 3 for time) that you describe. While some of these games have still been good (ie arcanum) it has always been despite their combat, and not because of it.
But anyway I hope your game will be the one that actually proves me wrong and gets it all to work. |
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Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:43 pm |
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Guest
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First off I still to this day play BG, Fallout, Wizardry, Wasteland and Might and Magic so this gives you some idea of where I stand. Yes I do play new games however they tend to fall to the side as I am not a great twitch player and do not feel like smashing buttons on my mouse all over a screen ala Dungeon Lords...
My areas of enjoyment are;
- Character Building (stats + items + levels)
- Controls, no fast clicky all over my screen or smashing keys for combos.
- Story and game world, setting is important as well as NPC dialogs.
- Large! no! Huge! base of items of all sorts that just do silly things. Story behind items is a nice touch to. M&M artifacts are nice to read about.
Just my random thoughts as everyone seems to have thier own opinions, me I will stick with what I like even if its borish to the masses... Gaming for almost 30 years and loving it... |
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:26 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
My areas of enjoyment are;
- Character Building (stats + items + levels)
- Controls, no fast clicky all over my screen or smashing keys for combos.
- Story and game world, setting is important as well as NPC dialogs.
- Large! no! Huge! base of items of all sorts that just do silly things. Story behind items is a nice touch to. M&M artifacts are nice to read about...
Yes! I don't get as excited about story as many RPGers. I'm perfectly fine with a generic "save the world" march, but I want to see the world change based on my character and I want my character to change based on what he does in the world.
I think the best way to define what I'm looking for is to define what it's not. In Morrowind, you can achieve the same character growth (stats, equipment, levels) standing in a swamp killing mudcrabs for a few days as if you work thru the main quest. That's just wrong. The player should be rewarded for accomplishing quests, and those rewards should be evident in the character.
I like party-based games if they're done properly. In Wiz8 or MM7, you can't create a "do it all" party. The balancing act of party creation adds another level of complexity and enjoyment. Whether it's building the "perfect mix", or designing a "fatally flawed" challenge, party composition and development matters.
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:41 am |
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lostzac
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
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I thank you all for your idea's...wish mre of the alpha testers would post such helpful information.
I am working hard on creating and finding that balance, and I hope the game prooves to be a classic as the ones abover mentioned. We release new's through RPGDOT, so keep your eyes out for more information.
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Face the coming Storm
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 3:44 am |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
I believe that it is fair and correct to hope for and expect quality games to be developed in all areas - as I said, I love a variety of RPG types and hope for more games focused on delivering a top-notch story and character development and exploration in the future.
However, the author makes several statements that make it clear that there is only one thing that qualifies as a 'RPG' - slow paced, turn-based combat with no pause key and so on. He goes so far as to say that people who like a bunch of combat, who like fast paced games, and so on, are not RPers. He says that they should return to their twich games and leave his precious genre alone.
That is where I had the problem - don't look to improve the lot for 'classic' RPG's by denigrating the possibility that high quality RPG's can be made which implement features found in 'action' games. I cite again 'Divine Divinity', which someone asked 'isn't that an action-RPG?' When I hear that term, I think of Diablo - of games with plot-lite stories, hak-n-slash and find loot and a bunch of Fedex quests. They can be fun, but not very deep - sort of like Dungeon Siege II. Divine Divinity may use the 'click attack' of action RPG's, but has a tremendous amount of depth and character development.
I think that we should challenge developers to give us great RPG's - but not limit it to only one type. We should allow them some freedom, but also demand great stories with depth.
Mike
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 11:46 am |
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doctor_kaz
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 108
Location: West Virginia, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by niteshade
To be honest I tend to shudder a little when any game, strategy or RPG, has a choice between turn based or real time combat. This usually means one of two things.
1) The game is designed for one of the two, and the other was added on as a poorly designed afterthought.
2) The game puts some effort into both, and you end up with 2 mediocre control schemes instead of one good one.
The problem is that turn based and real time gaming are so radicaly different, that a system really can't work really well with each.I'm not sure that there has ever been a game that had both and actually succeeded at making it work. It's gotten so that it sets of huge warning bells in my mind whenever I see it. I enjoy turn based games, and I enjoy real time games, but I rarely enjoy games that give you a choice between the two.
I agree wholeheartedly. There has never been a good system that did this. I never liked the implementation of combat for the Bioware Infinity Engine games. Another game that tried but failed to do both was Arcanum. Some games have tried to take a naturally turn-based game and turn it into real-time (e.g. Lionheart) and have failed at it. I think that you either have to use a turn-based system all the way or a real-time system that was built from the ground up for real-time, and give the player the option to pause the game. |
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 12:00 pm |
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lostzac
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Jan 2005
Posts: 27
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Well it seams I got my work cut out for me, to either a proove you all right and fail, or b break the mode and succeed..I prefer B, but only time will tell.
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Face the coming Storm
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www.mythopoeagames.com |
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Thu Sep 08, 2005 1:11 pm |
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