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Rainstorm
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 02 Dec 2001
Posts: 194
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quote:
Originally posted by JemyM
There is a difference between pre-built characters and open character creation, even in normal PnP games. Both have advantages and flaws, but in a roleplaying game you take the role as a character (pre-built or made yourself) and meet the world from the eyes of your character.
This is another thing where my opinion differs... 
I think of RP as playing a role,not living yourself into one....it removes the role *play* imho...
It's like reading a book,watching a movie,you may live yourself into the events,but you're not the one who are facing it,you're just living yourself into the fear/joy/sadness and so on of the person you're watching/reading about.
Since I (when I play RPG's) want to play a role,not read a lot of text and live myself into the events and a char I can honestly say there aren't many that appeal to me....PS:T for instance didn't...IWD was sort of fun,but I looked at it for what it is e.g. a dungeon crawl/hack'n'slash and not a RPG.
quote:
The difference between a pre-built character and a adventure game, is that in an adventure game you do not have any options to control the will and actions of your character. Instead you are forced to take the exact path the developers have prepared to you. No alternative endings, no doing something completely different, one and single solution for everything and yes, your advantages will be holding your breath in 10 minutes, and your flaws will be Fear: Porcelain... becouse that is the character you are forced to play, and you wont have any way to affect that.
I actually never felt I had much option to evolve my char in Gothic apart from spending a few XP making him more powerful or so....and that part of RPG's isn't really what makes an RPG appeal to me...customization,creating the char to be the talker/warrior/whatever I am playing it as.(and want to see it having an effect on the game in general....I actually think it has a bit too little effect in MW too...but I haven't gone for a really different char yet,so I'll try some sexy female druid or something and see what happens)
Which is why I have from the start and will continue to see Gothic as an action adventure with RPG elements.(and those being the possibility of adjusting your char a bit)
quote:
So your will of freedom are a more defined path into the Roleplaying cathegory. That does not make Gothic an adventure game, it only makes the difference between playing piano or guitar...
Like any two people we have different ways to look at it and our own opinions, "smaken är som röven,klöven"...and in my eyes Gothic is an action adventure and will continue to be just that.
It's still one of the best games I have played,the life of NPC's and animals is impressive and I liked more or less everything about it...but I'll still see it as an action aventure. 
quote:
Morrowind is pig-breeding all the way. No-one stops you if you stay two months in the tavern in Pelagiad, and you are absolutely free to do whatever you like (even if you do have a 'mission'), same thing goes with Fallout AND the first 50% of Gothic.
True...but nothing stops me from staying at the starting line in Colin McRae either....and that's no RPG AFAIK...
I don't really know tbh if you can crack MW right away by running to wherever the "end boss" is as you can with Fallout (I suspect you can) but in Gothic you can't AFAIK.(since he'd most likely not spawn until you've made your way to it...in whichever chapter it is...)
So I am picky about what I call RPG's...like I wrote I have a hard time seing squad based games as RPG's too since I am playing *a* role,I am after all one person IRL and not six...I see those as Tactical games with RPG elements...
I'd say MW is a RPG....but not one that really appeals to me...I am hoping that Arx fatalis will be the game that does it for me in the RPG genre.
I will get Gothic2 on release,no doubt about it...but I won't expect it to be "anything more" than a bigger improved Gothic and that's just fine with me since I know I'll have a whole lot of fun and will love the game....
If PB also manage to make it into what is *in my view* an RPG I'll be jumping with joy... |
Fri May 24, 2002 3:02 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
quote:
Originally posted by JemyM
Chekote
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Thoose three does not have limitations, more than obvious ones.
It is a big difference between "locked door, find key" and "That tower is too high to jump up on".
Best Regards
JemyM
The reason that you could not get up to that tower had nothing to do with its height. There was a door and a key, they were just disguised as something else. The Demon was the door, and the three golem hearts were the key.
My point is, that you are now saying that doesnt count because you can get there eventually. But my whole reason for replying to your post in the first place was because you claimed you can go ANYWHERE, WHENEVER you want, and that is simply not true. There are far more things than strong monsters blocking your path.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Fri May 24, 2002 3:35 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Rainstorm
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You cannot become who you portray. You try to be like him/her, put yourself into her/his position as much as you can, but you will never be that person. You will always be yourself, no matter if you call yourself something else or wear a hat. Some players are always themselves, if they so play a 50y baglady to a 14y overclass snob. Everybody is born and rised with their view on everything else.
The greatest task, and what I try to do, is to also roleplay that person within my mind. I need to force myself to think as the character I portray. If I play the snob, I must know what motive he have to do what he does, and then I play hime like that.
And that is also the way that I play computer games when it comes to RPG. When the RPG allows me to do what I believe that my character would have done, then it makes me more happy.
Unfortunate, the amount of possibilities are always heavily reduced becouse there are some time-schedule that must be upheld if a computer-game should be worth the work put into it, but the more freedom you have, the better.
In Gothic I did not steal goods from some people. I let them be, just becouse it felt right. But I did assassinate Bloodwyn becouse he ordered Herek to beat me up. And I did also defeat and killed Herek in public, just to show others what would happen if they messed with me. I had reasons for lots of things that I did. It wasnt to collect Ore, or skillpoints, it was becouse I had a clear view upon what went on inside my characters mind, and then I played the game after that.
Roleplaying for me is not about points... It is about characters, personalities, roleplay. Gothic's strong part was all the NPC's you could talk to, and that rised Gothic many steps on my top-rpg list.
Smaken är som baken.
Vissa ser bra ut, andras stinker. 
Morrowind, Gothic and Fallout does all have waypoints that must be taken before you can reach the final boss. Fallout have the fewest, but you still have things you must do before you reach there. I do not want to spoil Morrowind for you, but you are forced to do many things before you can finish Morrowind. If you run stright towards the end, you will just be stopped with the knowledge that you have things left to do first.
What do you think about Baldurs Gate 2 where you play the main role, but do have 5 characters with unique personalities that you that you can interact with?
What is all this talk about Arx Fatalis? What is it?
Chekote
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Ok, it is a clear difference between being able to visit 85% of the map without doing anything first, and 3% of the map without doing anything first.
Compare Gothic/Baldurs Gate
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Fri May 24, 2002 4:14 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
I didnt care for Baldurs gate that much. Although I have both the original and the sequal I have not played it enough to offer any informed oppinion on it. The combat put me off. I REALY REALY REALY enjoyed planescape torment though.
I envy you with the roleplaying. What you describe you do is exactly what I try and do. But I never quite seem to be able to pull it off. I am getting better though!
If you havent played Arx yet you are truly missing something. There is a demo available to download, and its made by Fishtank Interactive. The full game isnt out yet but once you try the demo you will see what all the fuss is about.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Fri May 24, 2002 4:32 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
What I really liked about Baldurs Gate 2 was the characters that circulated around you. I can easily write a page about each NPC you have in your party... The old and battered Keldorn who's wife is cheating on him... Young Imoen with too much burden to carry, yet keeping her innocense no matter what... Minsc and his fellow Bo...
I actually fell tears in the end of Throne of Bhaal. You are deeply attached to your partners after spending +3/400h with them... =) It will take time until someone put so much effort in producing real-life NPC's again.
And hey, I never said It was easy to put yourself into the mind of another... And I dont say that I do it perfectly either... Sometimes I just hit the right spot, sometimes It doesnt work at all... =)
I did an excellent portrayal of a doughter to a rich lord during a western "whodunnit" scenario recently, but I have major difficulties with a drugdealer that was pushed up on me in another campaign.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Fri May 24, 2002 4:58 pm |
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Chekote
Where’s my Banana?!?!
Joined: 08 Mar 2002
Posts: 1540
Location: Dont know, looks kind of green |
That is exactly what I liked about Planescape Torment aswell. You realy get to delve into the your parties past as you get to know them more. It was excellent.
But I also loved the combat in PS aswell. I hope one day I can get over my dislike of the combat in BG cuz everyone tells me how excellent the game is.
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IMHO my opinion is humble |
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Fri May 24, 2002 6:23 pm |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
My history with Planescape Torment is interesting. Everytime I had it in my hands, I had to get rid of it becouse of misc reasons.
My friend have always harrassed me becouse I have a major hole in my RPG experience... Now I have solved every damn RPG/Adventure game with a name during the recent years, except Planescape Torment... 8(
However, I got a sign from god just a couple of days ago... Magically my studentpartner decided to pay back everything I have given him, and imagine my surprise when he stuck a original full version of Planescape Torment in my hand and said "I dont know if you want this, but I tought I had to pay you back somehow, and I never understood this one, so you may have it, if you wish"...
So now I have something big to do this summer, and its name isnt Morrowind. 
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Fri May 24, 2002 7:18 pm |
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ZyanTundra
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 16 May 2002
Posts: 28
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This is also the problem with Morrowind and open-ended games. The good thing is you have the freedom to roleplay a role you decide for yourself, I was attached to my character in Morrowind more than I did to "New Here" In Gothic. However, the bad thing is I can never get attached to any NPCs in Morrowind, I just don't feel for them. All they ever did was stand in one place and interact with me when I choose to talk with them. I feels like a one man universe. While in Gothic, I was attached to many NPCs, mainly the big four, the necromancer, the camp leaders...etc. They're actually alive and are not passive like NPCs in Morrowind. |
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Sun May 26, 2002 1:34 am |
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JemyM
Vault Dweller
Joined: 28 Nov 2001
Posts: 753
Location: Sweden |
Well, that have always been the good part of Gothic, and why I am not 100% sure that I prefer Morrowind. Gothic had a 'feel' that just wrapped around you and didnt let you out until you finished the game, now I have actually grown bored of Morrowind.
I do alot of quests, but the onbly difference between quest and quest is different lines of text scrolling in the chat window. The NPC's look the same, they greet me with the same message, and then it feels like I have already seen most of the unique scenery, and the rest is just copes of the scenery I already seen.
Gothic had numerous of unique voiced NPC's that you either fell for, or hated, when you reached important places you got lots of cutscenes that cinematically build up the excitement. All areas looked 100% unique, and there could be no mistake between one cave and another... Sadly I cnnot say this about Morrowind.
Best Regards
JemyM |
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Sun May 26, 2002 10:41 am |
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Elder Dragon
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 24 May 2002
Posts: 29
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I agree with JemyM, all the Elder Scrolls game give you a lot of freedom and thousands of quests, but only the quests that are needed for the story are really interesting.
I prefer the detailed Gothic world over Morrowind's, but then again character creation is much better in Morrowind; perhaps someone can come up with a game that combines the best of both worlds? |
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Sun May 26, 2002 12:30 pm |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
I agree with Jemy M, Morrowind just isn't as immersive as Gothic to me. I like MW--it's pretty groundbreaking in a lot of ways but it just isn't as... exciting... as Gothic to me!
_________________
''Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always think that the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied. Look at me: I design coastlines. I got an award for Norway.''--Slartibartfast |
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Sun May 26, 2002 12:30 pm |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
I liked Gothic... I like Morrowind.
_________________
Make good choices. |
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Sun May 26, 2002 2:07 pm |
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ZyanTundra
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 16 May 2002
Posts: 28
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quote:
Originally posted by sauron38
I liked Gothic... I like Morrowind.
I loved Gothic, best game of last year for me. I also Loved Morrowind, possibly the best RPG, if not the best game of this year, imo. I just don't like it when people say Morrowind beats Gothic in every way. Morrowind is better than Gothic in many ways just like Gothic to Morrowind, and Morrowind might still come out on top after all things considered. I was wowed by EverQuest when I first started(Now can't stand it) and I was wowed by Gothic. Morrowind is the best of both world, so in theory it should be "better", but I didn't get as big of a "wow" as the pervious two games because I've experienced with games like tha already. |
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Sun May 26, 2002 2:40 pm |
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Klem
Guest
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Linear would be a good way to describe Dungeon Siege...not Gothic. I have yet to try MW but I am very impressed with the non-linear style of Gothic. And the added bonus of voice acting for every piece of dialog with every NPC really helps with the immersion.
As for hand-holding...not sure what was meant by that but the Gothic that I play basically drops you into the barrier and let's you figure it out. No tutorial...no helpful trainer...just a message for a wizard in some Old Camp. Just the way I like it. |
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 5:28 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
Klem,
Gothic is linear and a lot faster after the completion of chapter 1.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Mon Jun 03, 2002 7:46 pm |
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