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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
Just to be clear, I wasn't intending to comment on quality - I like the Gothics far, far, better than Morrowind. I also take all of your other points, even if I don't think Gamerankings is quite as skewed as you (by the way, I don't actually like Gamerankings but it's the best way I can think of to guage the "average" opinion).
I also accept that voters on Gamerankings don't necessarily reflect the true average of gamers at the local mall - fair enough.
Let me come at it from a slightly different perspective.  Let's leave Gothic's sales at the side, because obviously its potential has been seriously damaged by delays, poor marketing etc etc.
But...Morrowind alone still sold 4M copies, so a whole truckload of people bought it. That makes it almost as successful as both BG + BG2 put together and more successful than KotOR + KotOR2 or NWN + expansions. In fact, I don't know a single more successful singleplayer RPG. It's possible 4M people bought it and they all hated it...but I doubt it.
So, when spritex says Morrowind was "just plain boring" (and I agree) we are going against the grain of the most successful RPG ever (?) from a sales perspective. Does it not seem reasonable that such a title might get good reviews? And that we just don't represent the most common view?
Same here regarding the preference . Also, it wasn't my intention (either) to defend Gothic or to get a quality debate going (I hope my post was mostly neutral enough).
I just find it questionable to draw conclusions from those sales numbers (or user ratings on a site that frequently gets linked to by 'fanbois'... let's face it... it just takes a handful of very bored people and a rainy Sunday afternoon to manipulate a poll beyond the point of hope *g*).
Anyway, who knows? Maybe the majority out of the 4M who bought MW did indeed not like it very much? There certainly is a hell of a lot of critical opinions on MW out there, including the mentioned sites even as it was GameSpy/IGN who "awarded" MW a top rank in their "Most overrated games ever" feature. Funny how they "corrected" their view of the game once some time had passed  .
Anyway -here we are- all of us "MW haters" ... once again victims of the almighty hype as we're buying OB as if the disappointment of MW had never even existed.
This is where the original poster is correct IMHO. Bethesda's got hype down to an art and it's just about impossible to resist buying OB because of all the coverage and positive press.
Hype is a funny phenomenon, isn't it? Seems like it's all about trying to find the same enjoyment that others have found in a product. Or have they? Or are they just saying the product is fun because the majority (and reviewers) are saying/dictating it's fun?
I don't know... but I have to admit that I somehow really have to force myself to like Oblivion. It's not a bad game at all but it's lacking... 'something'... but still I'm eager and willing to find out why others think it's the best RPG ever. That's weird, isn't it? Shouldn't I rather listen to myself and say 'feck it', hit uninstall and wait for G3 instead? Hell yeah, I should  but I'm not doing it because I'm a hype victim and I will probably also pre-order ES V unless it sounds really stupid on paper. Bethesda 1 - me 0 ... they win . |
Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:15 am |
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X-dANGEr
Unknown Destiny
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2383
Location: The X place |
I do agree to most of your points. I tryed to play MW and get off with it 5 times.. But never got past the first quest, just too boring. Trees that don't look like trees, vast lands with no creatures in them.
It's simple to figure out the matter of scores. I think MW is by far the best RPG in that time if you haven't played Gothic, and a lot of those 4M didn't even know what Gothic is.. So, you see the point?
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 7:39 am |
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spritex
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 18
Location: Helsinki, Finland |
You have a good analysis Moriendor.
About the Oblivion again: There are now several things that are looking bad for the game. Read these two threads about the basic game mechanics:
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=293952
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=290958
..and then there are things like NPC's acting nonsensical, constant "loading area" texts, always loading when entering houses. Somebody c"limbed up to a high mountain and there was nothing but some wolves in the top - no hidden loot, special encounters or anything". The whole big world seems like it's just nice looking area with no substance in it between the fights and dungeons/cities, heck even the interactive plants are fixed structures like containers.
Gamespot just gave it 9.6 - in the summary only bad things "Frequent but fairly brief loading times; you might run into some technical issues with performance."
IGN gave it 9.4 and "Truly a great RPG system, from character building to spell creation. There's almost too much for your character to do in Morrowind."
I don't know what to think. Note that I still haven't played the game but if it really is like what I have read in the forums...
I TRULY hope that they keep Gothic 3 true to the previous games AND it get's more media attention. |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 11:15 am |
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XmirroR
Village Leader
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 89
Location: South CA USA |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
Valid thought, Dhruin, but the 3 of us are right. MW is "just plain boring" ...
Make it 4... Morrowind was boring.
I dont have sales numbers to quote but chances are it sold better later than most games, ecause the community released Modifications that made the game much more than what the box included.
Oblivion is gonna hafta do the same. The disappointment is that that Bethesda knew we would.
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:15 pm |
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X-dANGEr
Unknown Destiny
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2383
Location: The X place |
Make it 'most gothic fans'..
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 12:39 pm |
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spritex
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 18
Location: Helsinki, Finland |
By the way, I am right now playing G2 with Night of the Raven. I played G2 through as a Paladin maybe 2 years ago. Now I am playing as a mage (only a novice at this point).
Boy it's hard! I really like it how they put the NOTR elements inside the world - can't wait to visit the new areas. But first things first, I have no clue about 2 of the mage missions - don't tell me though, I want to think it by myself |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 1:26 pm |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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quote:
Originally posted by spritex
Somebody c"limbed up to a high mountain and there was nothing but some wolves in the top - no hidden loot, special encounters or anything".
Morrowind had whole small villages that were basicly empty shells. There was nothing to do in them except check out the 3d-walls which took around 25 seconds.
Greatness of morrowind is the constructors set and mod community. You can install a huge amount of quality mods that all work together and in my eyes they raise the games scrore from 80% to over 90%.
I played morrowind first without the mods and then with them (plus expansions) and there is like a world of difference between them. I have even found hidden treasures! Similary I dont see the need to fill every nook & granny in oblivion with content, because mods will automatically take care of that eventually. |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 3:14 pm |
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spritex
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 18
Location: Helsinki, Finland |
Why not just leave out most of the quests and NPC's too - you can always count on the mod community to flesh out the game  |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:48 pm |
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X-dANGEr
Unknown Destiny
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 2383
Location: The X place |
Valid points round their.. MW has some very good modding tools. Though, the modding tools didn't grant more sales, neither did the mods IMO. People buy the game for what it is, not what the community has done for it (At least I think it should be this way).
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:42 pm |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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quote:
Originally posted by spritex
Why not just leave out most of the quests and NPC's too - you can always count on the mod community to flesh out the game
I was talking about hidden treasures not quests. All the mods I added to morrowind (that made it better) were 95% gameplay improvements. There were very few if any quests. The main quest in morrowind enchanced with the expansions is more than enough.
Also I doubt there is a lack of quests in oblivion either. The thing that the person above complained about was the lack of treasure chest on a mountain. Thats a good example of a small thing the mods can easily address.
Of course bethsoft could have delayed the game for year or two more just so they add treasure chest behind every tree and rock, but in that time mod community could do much more so its better to release it now. |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:48 pm |
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Zakhal
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 13 Oct 2002
Posts: 188
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quote:
Originally posted by X-dANGEr
Valid points round their.. MW has some very good modding tools. Though, the modding tools didn't grant more sales, neither did the mods IMO. People buy the game for what it is, not what the community has done for it (At least I think it should be this way).
Morrowind sold four million boxes, it was a bestseller and a game of the year. Im not sure but I might guess that the modding tools did have somthing to do with it (without the mods the game is pretty average to sell that much). |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 6:51 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
These are all valid points but I still think the reality is that while a whole bunch of us thinking it's dull, it's a game that polarises and there's a whole bunch that think it's awesome. We should get Rend down here to exlain the 97% he gave it in his review.
Three closing comments: the Xbox version accounts for nearly half those sales, so I'm sure modding is a bg draw but plenty of people bought it without that capability. Moriendor really nails the point, though, that we seem to want big, open gameworlds so despite MW, plenty of us lined up for OB, anyway.
Lastly, bear in mind this forum is dominated by Gothic fans...I can easily show you forums where the sentiment runs the other way.
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Sat Mar 25, 2006 9:26 pm |
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spritex
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 18
Location: Helsinki, Finland |
quote:
Originally posted by Zakhal
Of course bethsoft could have delayed the game for year or two more just so they add treasure chest behind every tree and rock, but in that time mod community could do much more so its better to release it now.
This is not what I would want. I like the way it is in the - cough - Gothics. You can find a skeleton of a dead adventurer behind some bushes and his belongings beside him, and you can pick them up. You can find herbs and mushrooms growing in sensible places and you can pick them up - and they disappear from the ground, only to maybe grow back some time later. Or, there is some food around a campfire, or a rusty axe on a treestump. All this little stuff makes the world much more alive and interesting to explore. There isn't _too_ much of it either so it's always a surprise.
Is there even _any_ scattered loot in the Oblivion forests or is it only "treasure chests"? I haven't played it yet. |
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Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:46 pm |
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xSamhainx
Paws of Doom
Joined: 11 Sep 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: San Diego |
I liked Morrowind alot, and ran thru it a couple times with no "mods" other than myself editing the stats on good looking armor and an item or two, and creating a nice little museum of my conquests and equipment in the cleaned-out Buoyant Armigers base in Molag Mar. All I see is cut-downs of Morrowind and people wondering why and how it sold so much. It sold so much because alot of people, like myself, think it's one of the best open-ended exploration and freeform games they've ever played. It's got the best and most expansive lore Ive ever seen in a game to this day. People always bag on the graphics, I dont think the graphics are bad, they serve their purpose just fine in my opinion.
Just had to say it, havent said it in a while
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“Then away out in the woods I heard that kind of a sound that a ghost makes when it wants to tell about something that's on its mind and can't make itself understood, and so can't rest easy in its grave, and has to go about that way every night grieving.”-Mark Twain |
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 7:40 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
Just one point on those high review scores.
I quite like the fact that reviewers are trying to express their overall "relation" with the game rather than simply summing all pross and cons and outputting some score.
By that I mean that game may have several really annoying glitches and you may still very much enjoy it. Why not give it 95%? |
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Mon Mar 27, 2006 8:30 am |
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