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Jajo
Village Dweller
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 2
Location: Poland |
Hi there...
I think you should first think about the whole thing in not-determined categories at first (Not Story, Character, NPC's..., but Category 1, Cat. 2...) and make a good "general" system... When you decide for an end system, then you should think about naming the categories... This avoid arguments and the system could be implemented for another genre maybe...
One more thing about the system... The system won't be an ideal system, because ideal things doesn't exist in the normal world (Ideal - without ANY flaws neither subjective nor objective)...
Ok.. that's all for now... if something about the system itself comes me to my mind i'll write a post...
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Sun Feb 09, 2003 2:08 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Hi Jajo.
I think that we already have started with finding all the criterias, we could think off, and we decided in the old version to make 6 categories, which seems equally important for a CRPG, and covered all the criterias. I think if we aim to make a system so generally, that it could be used for any game genre, we loose a lot of concerning questions in each genre, which leaves us with a much less satisfied score system.
Ofcourse the system principle could be used in other game genres as well, but with some different categories and criterias.
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Mon Feb 10, 2003 10:58 am |
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Jajo
Village Dweller
Joined: 08 Feb 2003
Posts: 2
Location: Poland |
Hmmm... I think we're misunderstanding or I just couldn't render my thoughts like I wanted... But I think we are both thinking of the same thing... And about other genres... There was a "maybe"...
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A strong man doesn't need to read his future. He makes his own.
Solid Snake |
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Mon Feb 10, 2003 11:55 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
I did see you "maybe", for multiple genres, I just wrote about, my opinion about a possible system for all genres, as we had had a similar discussion here before.
And besides Jajo I think we have found all the criterias we can come up with for now, and I admit some or many of them are very specific, and not that general at all, to be usable for other game genres, buts is the way we decided the system should go (for now). If You got any other interesting suggestions, or a more specific writing of your ideas (if I have misunderstood anything), then we are all ears! We can't get enough suggestions in building such a system!
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Mon Feb 10, 2003 12:54 pm |
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Sam Darkwind
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 2
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Hi there. I'm an avid P&P and C RPG player, and thought I'd add my tuppence to this discussion after I saw a post on it somewhere in the underdogs.
Anyway, here's my suggestion:
the criteria idea is what I'd go for, as it is the closest to unbiased you can get. However I'dd add some fuzzy logic to it. Elaborating:
Rather than having a set of criteria for a category, and counting the number of yes answers, have them be worth different things and have a number of possible answers. Example:
Story:
Number of endings:
1 - 0 pts
up to 3 - 1 pt
...
up to 9 - 3 pts
Story Complexity:
simplsitic - 0 pts
2-3 paths - 5 pts
4+ paths - 10 pts
Player impact on story:
none - 0 pts
little - 2 pts
medium - 5 pts
plenty - 7 pts
totally player
oriented - 10 pts
Sidequests (subcategory)
Amount
none - 0 pts
few - 1 pt
some - 3 pts
loads - 5 pts
all quests
optional - 10
Detail:
basic - 0 pts
some twists - 3 pts
detailed - 5 pts
very detailed - 7 pts
Bump:
up to 4 pts either way (-4 to +4)
The bump is a general subjective item that would allow you to arbitrarily nudge the score either way, to a maximum of 10% of the total score (in this case, 40 pts)
Cases in which the bump score might be used:
Ultima Underworld 1 - Character development is strictly level based and there are only 16 levels. However there could be a positive bump to the score on account of the rather original mantra system, which only allowed you to develop specific skills/stats if/when you found the mantra for them. Until them you only have the general mantras that increase skills groups in general and by low amounts.
Also, the combat system, despite being realtime no matter what (which seems to be considered a big no-no), has the three basic types of hit (swing, bash, stab), and the highly interesting runic magic system that really add to a combat system that would have very low ratings otherwise
should specific amounts be fixed for plot endings, sidequests et al, you should bump the score in accordance to the overall length of the game. Giving the same sidequests rating to a tiny 2-hour game and a massive 150-hour game 'cause they both have 10 sidequests is silly.
----------------
On general subjects across the whole rating sysem:
You should rate the games on how much they FORCE you to immerse yourself in them. A nice example of this is the adventure game series Discworld. You go and try to go through those games without immersing yourself in the Prachett way of thinking. The puzzles are extremely well thought, and are extremely logical if you lend yourself slightly to a surreal way of seeing things.
Character development should have added points if you DO NOT ahve a level system. Level systems are good for P&P RPGs, and even then are easily substituted for more organic character development systems. A good example is AD&D 2nd Ed. it started out as a straight development thing, with no options beyond the starting race and class. Then you got the almighty Player's Option series that gave yuo a very good system for tailoring you initial skills, but once again leveling up just gave you more HPs, THAC0 and spells.
Then there's Shadowrun (my current RPG of choice), that gives you an almost comletely free character design system, that just limits how much you can start off with in each category, and during play has no level system, but rather a karma system that lets you buy skills, spells and a lot more with the karma you get during play. Despite having, for example, a measly 50-60 spells available for spellcasters, against the 200+ available off the shelf for each type of spellcaster in AD&D, the system is designed to give you more freedom, hence making it a better roleplay.
This can be seen in CRPGs: compare, say the Diablo with System Shock 2 (experience and leveling up vs the module thingy system). In terms of character development, and even if you don't have THAT many chances for development, SS2 is that much richer than Diablo.
Ultima 8 (and later ultima online) does this eevn better: advancement is given by doing things, not by getting x experience. In u8 u got more intelligent by reading, stronger by hacking around in general, and more dextrous by running around (they seem to associate agility with stamina, for some weird reason). In UO, besides gaining attributes from doing things that demand their use (minus reading/running), you can learn some basic stuff in certain skills just by watching others use them. THAT's well developed character advancement, yet you'll neevr see levels in plain vanilla UO.
Then comes the bit on exactly what makes a good RP. I'm in for the theory that dungeon crawlers are nothing but (sometimes) well scripted action games. Such is the case with Diablo, Eye of the Beholder (the whole trilogy), Dungeon Master, and probably quite a few recent games (I haven't bought a PC RPG in ages. They're not that easy to get here in Portugal). System Shock (both of 'em), despite being action games with a degree of RP in 'em, are much deeper experiences than the aforementioned games, and the strange sort of NPC interaction they have (even if a purely prescripted interaction) makes them a brilliant action game with a strong RP component. Kinda like pulp fiction: one of the very few truly GREAT action films ever made. It is an action film, but lends itself to a bit of drama and the plot is brilliantly arranged.
(EDIT) Related to the action game bit is that IMO, you should benefit the games that disallow as much as possible powergaming. Games that force you to act out your character rather than rely on statistics are GOOD. Games where how likely you are to get through a section of it just 'cause you spent 2 days leveling up before going there are BAD (though rare is the game that meets this criteria) (end of EDIT)
Well, it seems I gave a bit more than tuppence here. I'll be checking back in
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Mon Feb 10, 2003 3:12 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Hi Sam
Most people try to drop in with a small comment, and end up writing a novell  . I guess it just proofs the complexity of this task we try to accomplice.
I got a few comments to your interesting theories and thoughts!
Your weighting system by giving more points for a fulfilled criteria, the more it consist of a criteria, is another way to do it, but I think it is ending up in the same result as I have suggested. I have a criteria for each degree of a topic I think should be rewarded with another point.
Ex: Main Story Paths:
Criteria 1: At least 2 paths
Criteria 2: At least 4 paths
Criteria 3: At least 7 paths
A game with at least 7 paths, can check off all 3 criterias, and get 3 points out of this topic!
Your use of adjectives like: "Little, medium, plenty" only opens up for personal preferences, which again leads to endless discussions, therefore I prefere precise numbers and facts, as they are more precise, at leads to much less conflicts regarding points.
Your bump score is for pure personal preferences, which I preferable wants to avoid, as most people only got 2 levels here, either plus max, or minus max depending if they like it or not. No again I prefer facts.
Regarding the learning by doing character development, I think we already have that covered in our criterias, as a satisfying alternative for leveling up. But we don't give more points to either system, as both can offer very free developed characters, and it's a taste which system you prefer.
Power gaming is also a freedom of choice, and shouldn't be degraded if it's possible IMHO. I think it shouldn't specially be rewarded either. A CRPG offering much freedom in regarding to Story, Character development, NPC responses, Gameworld access, interactivity and combat strategy must include a big amount of the criterias we have come up with. Not all gamers like this freedom, some like single paths, and a good straight story, so that's why we just call it a CRPG-element score, and not a score, how good the game actually is.
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Mon Feb 10, 2003 4:29 pm |
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Sam Darkwind
Village Dweller
Joined: 10 Feb 2003
Posts: 2
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 Oh, right. I was getting a bit carried off the point in powergaming and all. nm those bits then. either way, note that I gave 10 points max to some subjects and 7 (or even 3) to others. The fact that the system works this way allows you to give the system some considerable weight to some factors and a slight weight to others (this relates to your original system, where you required the bulk of the basic features to be present for a medium RPG, and details brought the game up to heavy RPG grade. That was the aim of my way of seeing things). This system makes it so that you don't need a huge list of criteria to give 30+% of the available points to the basic features, while making a game with a less than perfect basic set of features have a decent score if it is filled with tiny details that make it shine here and there.
The adjectives were not meant to be there in the final version. That was just concept example. The exact values of little, medium, etc would be for the community as a whole (or at least the part thereof thats participating here) to decide upon.
My bump score is not meant so much for personal preferences as is for things we cannot predict or that aren't covered (somehow, those always spring up). If you prefer, you can always have the final score bumped and UNbumped, and the full classification would include the reasons for bumping (I'm assuming that anyone who classifies a game like this will make the actual full-length classification public)
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victory needs no explanation.
deefat allows none. |
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Mon Feb 10, 2003 7:24 pm |
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Pinch
Village Dweller
Joined: 11 Feb 2003
Posts: 8
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After reading through this thread, it is my humble opinion that you are all going in the wrong direction. I believe the original question here was 'what classifies a game as a RPG?' Yes, you have a compiled a very long, comprehensive list of all the 'best' things from all you favorite RPGs throughout the years, but what exactly does this prove? Is there anyone here who honestly believes that an RPG is any game with a day/night cycle? 'Immersiveness' is a great quality for any game, but it by no means qualifies a game as being an RPG (or are all FPS games, which aspire to higher and higher levels of immersiveness, RPGs?)
There is really only one single concept that truly defines a game as an RPG. If you think about it, you'll realize you've known it all along. Its not 'multiple endings,' its not 'races' or 'classes,' its certainly not 'storyline' and its not even 'experience points.'
A Role Playing Game is a game in which the skills of the player are secondary to the skills of the character.
In a PnP RPG, you play a make-believe character, conjured from your imagination. This character is different from you. He doesn't know what you know, he doesn't have your body, and he has lived a different life. The game character's abilities need to be defined in some way (ANY way) and referenced as the primary means through which tasks are accomplished. The player does not manipulate the character directly but rather chooses how he develops and how he advances thorughout the game.
Thus, an RPG is a game where you gain experience points (or Karma, or Ability points, or whatever.) However, a game where you gain experience points is not neccesarily an RPG. Only if the development of the character is the primary way through which the player interacts with the game. In an RPG the player does not aim his shots; his character has an 'Aiming' skill. The player does not dodge attacks; his character has a defined ability to do this already. In Planescape Torment the player is definitely not expected to have the skills to lie or negotiate effectively, but his character had better. A system for character development is not a requirement but rather a side effect of the game's focus. It is a neccessity for any 'True' RPG because otherwise, the player would have little to do.
If you want to know if a game qualifies as an RPG you need to answer one question: Does this game challenge my skills or my character's skills? For many games this is easy; your character defeats the monster because he has a high level, or a lot of stat points, or powerful special abilities. In other games this is more difficult; did J.C. defeat his enemies because of his aiming skill or yours?
Essentially, if a game has a system for character development, try to play through the game while ignoring the system completely. If this renders the game impossible to finish, than it is an RPG. If it only makes the game more difficult to finish, than it is not an RPG.
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"I believe there is a basic human need to defeat monsters, collect treasure, and level up." ~ Pinch |
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Tue Feb 11, 2003 3:53 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Hi Pinch
Welcome to our little discussion.
I guess our main question, is how many elements promoting CRPG playing does a game consist of, and how intense are they. The question if a game is a CRPG or not is far more complex than just decide it by one criteria IMHO. And as the system suggest, I believe in a theory that games can be more or less a CRPG (EX: Light, Medium, Heavy etc).
Roleplaying is for me also to feel like living in the gameworld, and nothing but the 1.st person view of your character or party can give you a better immersive feeling in that aspect.
Roleplaying is also enhanced if the gameworld feels real, if we can accept goblins and dragons as creatures. And night & day cycle is an element that can make this gameworld more believable. Maybe nothing big, but still a criteria worth in my opinion.
Character development have a fairly important set of criterias for CRPG's, but Story, Manipulation, NPC's, Combat, Gameworld elements have for me equally importants to enhance the roleplaying in a CRPG, as for more freedom and complexity each category offers, the more possibilities the gamer have to roleplay after his liking.
If I play Diablo 2, and I don't develop my character, I will probably get stocked in the 3rd or 4th act, as the enemies gets too tough, and therefore Diablo 2 is a CRPG! alone on this fact. I think it's to vague a definition, and besides this conclussion tells not much about the games strong or week RPG enhancing sides.
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Tue Feb 11, 2003 9:38 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by Sam Darkwind
My bump score is not meant so much for personal preferences as is for things we cannot predict or that aren't covered (somehow, those always spring up). If you prefer, you can always have the final score bumped and UNbumped, and the full classification would include the reasons for bumping (I'm assuming that anyone who classifies a game like this will make the actual full-length classification public)
Okay this sounds more acceptable to reserve a special group of points to cover unforseen new CRPG enhancing elements.
The weight each criteria should have, is one of the bigger problems in the system, and surely a fact that can end up in disagreement. Is over 7 Story paths more than 10 times or only 7 times worth than only 2 story paths, or as in my system only 3 times more worth???
We even had a discussion here which not ended in agreement, that weighting criterias was necessary. The voted for a weighting criteria system, as it shows in my version of a system.
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Tue Feb 11, 2003 9:49 am |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
quote:
Seriously, the most important thing in a RPG is the ability to choose actions and path - otherwise there would be no role-playing at all. Games where the end is already determined aren't RPG's - they are "adventures".
But if the ability to choose actions and path is the most important thing in an RPG, and players are able to determine actions and path during the whole game, up to the very ending (at which point they're forced to stop or replay), wouldn't it still be an RPG? Can't they just replay it, choosing new actions and paths? What's the difference of having an ending, and the player just deciding they're going to quit at some point if they were at some point during the game able to choose their actions and path?
If the ability to choose actions and path were all that were required in an RPG, then DOOM, QUAKE, Curse of Monkey Island, and Where in the world is Carmen Sandiego would all be RPG's.
Because Tetris doesn't have an ending, is it not a game? What does an ending matter anyway, if we were able to up to that point roleplay? As far as we know, all human life ends, yet we can roleplay in our PnP sessions. So if they too can conceivably end, would they not be excluded in the RPG list according to your theory?
What if the DM gets sick, and no one else is capable of taking on the PnP session... it must end. But you'd have been roleplaying up to that point. Don't most modules have endings as well, so does that mean you're not roleplaying during them as well?
Obviously I question whether an "end" has anything to do with how life is lived, or whether roleplaying is roleplaying if at somepoint it comes to an end. You can't say you lived unless you are immortal? You can't say you roleplayed unless it never ends?
quote:
So finnaly, about COMPUTER RPG's. Using logic, we will see very fast that there is no such thing as a CRPG: a computer isn't capable of judging situations, it only responds to requests. So, as there isn't a program able to respond to all possible requests a user can make, there is no computer RPG.
What's the difference between us "judging" situations and us programming a computer artifical intelligence to "judge" a situation?
I can't fly in the real world, but does that mean I can't roleplay other things or characters in the real world besides flying creatures? You can only choose between a certain amount of classes in most PnP games, so is that not roleplaying because it doesn't offer you complete freedom? You must role a D20 in many games to see if you successfully hit. What if I wanted to just say "I hit it". Because I'm confined in that way, is it not roleplaying? In my experience, we can all only do or be one thing at a time anyway, so how many choices, though the more the merrier, doesn't really matter if I get at least one. Sure I can roleplay the xtarian beamprancer in my imagination, but if I'm limited to all the animals of the earth, who's to say that's not roleplaying too? The freedom of infinite possibility might appear impossible in a computer game the way we create them now, but does that mean if one is forced between alternatives, one isn't truly roleplaying?
Whether we have an infinite amount of possibilities or only 10, we're still going to choose one at a time. It's the choice that matters, not how many. Say I was "roleplaying" a binary number. Sure, a binary path through a game with one choice here or one there (along with other things we might associate with roleplaying games) would be the most horrifying roleplaying system conceivable, but it could still conceivably be a (although barely so) roleplaying system.
Applebrown
I apologize for the confrontational view, but it appears you are attacking those who attached the RPG label to anything without complete freedom of action and no end, yet had distinct rules of your own, namely "A Role Playing Game is a game where you role-play. That's all." If that's the case, you left out the part where it has to have an ending and complete freedom from the definition. |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 1:48 am |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
Hi Pinch, welcome to the discussion. And about the above post, welcome too, Wisp (who that was addressed to).
quote:
After reading through this thread, it is my humble opinion that you are all going in the wrong direction.
A Role Playing Game is a game in which the skills of the player are secondary to the skills of the character.
While your insight has definite validity, being able to classify whether a game is or is not an RPG is at least, not my intent. It's how close the game comes to reaching an RPG fixed point.. the fixed point being freedom. I'll explain further below. Sure some of it will be subjective. But it's fun and is I believe a good starting point for more insight. According to your rule, almost every RPG that I know would indeed, be an RPG. Well, what really does that tell us? RPG's are RPG's. Okay, what now?
Whether a game has a day or night cycle shouldn't, in my opinion, classify whether it's a good or bad RPG, but actually whether it comes close to representing some fixed point. The fixed point is realism within any imaginary world. That, I believe, more than anything else, represents what most people consider to be an RPG. That fixed point. Thus, a game that doesn't have a day/night cycle might still be an incredibly good RPG, but according to the scale, if day/night were on it, it would be a little farther from that fixed point. My scale is only intended for direction and guidance, like an RPG beacon.
Applebrown |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:04 am |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
Just wanted to add that Michael, I think overall you and I are trying to accomplish different things. You are intending to give a scale of how "deep" or "heavy" the RPG is, while at the same time, giving it the benefit of the doubt that it is indeed an RPG.
What I'm trying to do is rate it on an ideal "realism in any imaginary world" (to use what I wrote above) scale, whether in fact how far it reaches to that fixed point where the game has all the features of that ultimate realism in an imaginary world. I'm trying to make my criteria actually so that if an action game accidentally slipped into the review pile, the system would be robust enough to rate it, and actually show a low score.
I might find later that eventually there's an equally valid RPG game out there that totally shatters all the criteria I will have, and that I can't deny it in the slightest that it's in all ways an RPG. So then I'd have to revise it. But I'm trying to make the criteria so that it could still include something I haven't thought of. Neither yours nor mine will cover all bases. But if they get us further ahead with thinking deeper thoughts, then it will have all been worth it.
Applebrown |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:16 am |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
Just dropping in. Well then, Apple, have you dreamed up some more RPG elements for the current rating project? 
.. More comments later.
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:20 am |
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Applebrown
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 13 Nov 2002
Posts: 36
Location: Canada |
I certainly have! I'm trying for ONE more on the Story part for an even 20. And, I've revised my main goal. My main goal is not to tell whether the game is good, bad, heavy or light. It's to tell how much "freedom" is in your RPG. It's based upon the ideal that the more choices one has, the better... one that I think is pretty much in line with the RPG in general.
Wisp wrote about choices above, to which I replied rather confrontationally... but while I agree that the more choices one has the better, I don't think that roleplaying is dependant on how many there are.
Hence, why I'm not using this system to determine whether this IS an RPG, or whether it's good or bad, just how many choices it has, and how well developed those are. 
So, allow me to finish my story and then I would really like to refine the ones I put out here. If they need polishing, then polish them. But of course, many may be good to go, while others may need work.
I've decided that I would ideally like to have 5 categories... which I've said before. They are:
STORY
CHARACTERS
COMBAT
INTERACTION (MICRO) - that surrounding the immediate PC(s)
INTERACTION (MACRO) - that concerning the game world in general
It's not set in stone, but I'm at least pretty sure about Story, Characters and Combat, and at least one Interaction.
So with 5 categories, I'd like to have ideally 20 criteria in each category, making them rate about the same and for a nice round total of 100 criteria. That way, there will be less confusion about the ultimate score and each main category score will more easily mean something.
Applebrown |
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Thu Feb 13, 2003 2:33 am |
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