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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
Joey, sorry, but when you say:
quote:
A good CRPG SHOULD have these features.
what else should that mean that if a game doesn't have these features, it isn't a good RPG? I mean, that's the basics of logic. How could one misinterpret your statement?
quote:
Nowhere did I say that a CRPG was bad JUST because it didn't have this feature.
Oh, sorry, but: yes, you did exactly say that. 
Hmmm, let me try this.
Logically speaking there is a difference between saying: "A good CPRG SHOULD have feature A" and "A good CRPG MUST have feature A". I said that a good CRPG SHOULD have it not that it must. I said it this way in part because there are many features of a good CRPG and the exclusion of any single one doesn't negate the goodness of the CRPG. Further, "goodness" as applied to a game is NOT easily quantified - again partly due to any game having multiple features.
A good automobile (by modern American standards) SHOULD have a quality stereo system. However, the converse may NOT be logically inferred. That is, you may not infer from the first statement (which most Americans would agree is true) that an automobile that does not have a quality stereo system is a bad automobile.
And so you see, I did NOT say (either explicitly or implicitly) that a CRPG without a quality day/night emulation was a bad CRPG.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:14 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Then this is a subtle difference in what I know about the world "should" in english. My german translation wouldn't be "Ein gutes Rollenspiel sollte Tag und Nacht berücksichtigen", but "sollte wohlweislich" - not a proposition, but demanding.
If I got that wrong, sorry.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:20 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
And that is because you capitalized that word.
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 9:21 pm |
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Lordr31z
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 190
Location: United States of America |
Rendelius you are a true gamer. I have to give you props. Most of these posts say things that are not true or they just do not understand what they are doing so they take it as a flaw in the game. All of these complaints that Joey threw out there just simply do not exist. And another important comment i have to make. YES NPC'S DO HAVE A DAY AND NIGHT CYCLE IN THIS GAME. Another fact that if you do not truely play this game you will not know that. Sure the vendors stay open 24/7 but its for a reason. There are a good number of NPC's that follow a day and night cycle. Even a few quests involve following someone at night to see where they hide something. Go play the game and then come back with real complaints about the game. Oh and Rendelius you know my complaints about this game but it doesnt apply to everyone and i am pretty much past that now. I just play and fade into the great world of Morrowind.   |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:05 pm |
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Rendelius
Critical Error
Joined: 06 Jul 2001
Posts: 16
Location: Austria |
Just to not be looked at like a fanboy, I will list MY complaints with Morrowind here
The Journal. I wóuld like to see quests marked as finished and a weekly index.
NPC's: Greetings seem to be out of sync - they come too late, and they could be a little bit less frequent.
Critters: I'd like to see some less aggressive, but there's already a good mod for that.
Ah, and the mousespeed in menues - it has to be improved
_________________
Rendelius
former Senior Editor RPGDot
now at http://www.theastronomers.com |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 10:31 pm |
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bman
Guest
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No, the way you used it is synonymous with must....
A good rpg should be fun
A good rpg must be fun
is identical....
If you wanted to convey something lesser you say
A good rpg is usually fun |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:36 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by bman
No, the way you used it is synonymous with must....
A good rpg should be fun
A good rpg must be fun
is identical....
If you wanted to convey something lesser you say
A good rpg is usually fun
I am terribly sorry, bman, but if you don't (1) understand the use of the English language and/or (2) you don't understand logic, then you really should consider not posting.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Jun 13, 2002 11:57 pm |
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Speedtouch
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Rendelius
Just to not be looked at like a fanboy, I will list MY complaints with Morrowind here
Critters: I'd like to see some less aggressive, but there's already a good mod for that.
There is a mod for this, really? Do you know where I can find it?
That was one of the most dissapointing things about Morrowind (along with several others). All wildlife is aggressive, everywhere. Nothing is neatral, much less friendly.
I think this is one of the things that makes the gameplay do utterly boring for some people. It is not a first person shooter but the wildlife matra seems to be "if it moves kill it". Perhaps if the combat was not so dull this could be overlooked.
I would love to see a mod that actually tries to balance this mess out a bit. Do you know where I can download it? |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 12:24 am |
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Llama
High Emperor
Joined: 11 Oct 2001
Posts: 509
Location: Earth |
Netch's and some Guar are friendly... |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 2:57 am |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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Its the animal realism mod, you can find it and many others here:
http://www.rpgplanet.com/morrowind/mods/mods.asp
Just search for "animal" and you will find it. I like it, but it would be even cooler if the animals would also flee just when you approach. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 5:43 am |
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iloveplywood
Guest
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| All people that talk in absolutes are idiots |
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Is this the same nipps that posts incessantly on the official morrowind site about how the game is unbalanced?
It's sad that you think you can win a debate about whether a game is good or not. I agree that some people that love the game make the same mistake (telling people that they are playing it 'wrong'), but you should realize that you are doing the same thing. Frankly, it is strange for someone who dislikes a bloody game to hang around forums whining about why he doesn't like it. Are you surprised that a lot of the people reading a forum dedicated to the game don't share your massive bitterness towards it?
I suggest that if you are tempted to purchase another RPG that you don't buy it the day it is released and instead first find out if it has an NPC day/night cycle. Clearly this sort of stuff affects you rather strongly.
And finally, people are surprised that a game designer says they are trying to make the best single player RPG? Did you expect them to say they were shooting for the top 20? |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 6:26 am |
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sbatch10
Guest
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wow last time i checked my post thier were only 4 replies it's nice to see a good discussion too bad it always has to turn personal though.i guess i've learned from my post that for ervery flaw one finds someone else finds in to be a strength.its not that i feel this is a bad game its just that it was billed to be the next step in rpg's.i did like the sound of the land deed quest that was mentioned earlier but that too few and far between.it seems they wanted so much content that they were willing to sacrifice quality.for instance all the hand placed items that are useless.if i have to see one more redware bowl sitting on a shelf for no reason i'll puke.why can't i interact with this stuff if i'm in a heated battle and my last weapon breaks why cant i grap one of these bowls and throw it at him for that matter why cant i throw any weapon i want.maybe pick op a rock as a weapon in a pinch.or maybe i'm retreating from a monster and i lose him only to run into a bandit, why cant i kill the bandit toss his body out in the path of the monster.the monster happily devours dead bandit while i sneak past to steal the treasure the monster was guarding.or i'm on a quest to assassinate a bad guy i see said bad guy in town and it's dark out i climb to the top of a building take i my trusty bow, peek over the edge and bam down goes the bad guy (critical kill dont know why we dont have those),i slump down hide in the shadows and blend inot the crowed thats gathered around the dead body.or i'm level one and i'm out in the woods messing where i should'nt be a wolf spots me i frezze knowing i'm no match, wolf closes in i'm sweating it out should i run should i fight only to watch the wolf sniff me a little and leave.i survive a close call.i know some of these this would require alot of scripting and may not be easy to implement in a game but when the game is supposed to be the next step in its genre i guess i expect to see things i've never seen before.
i really want to like this game any finish at least the main quest but with nwn and warcraft 3 gold i don't see that happening maybe i'll shelves play those 2 and come back by the the patch and much more content will be out.maybe i expected too much but they built up the hype not me.thanks for all the replies it was nice to see that i wasnt the only one who expected more. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 6:38 am |
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Doomisnear
Village Leader
Joined: 10 Apr 2002
Posts: 96
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From playing this game a lot I can say that there are a variety of levels of complexity to quests. There are the lame ones were I have to have a guy follow me so I can find his destination quests. There are the I have to kill someone quests, which can be good because they can cause ripples in the city they happen in or on the Island and there is the chance of getting some cool treasure. Not to give too much away, but I took out this one group of people in a town who were bad guys and I could still talk to people about it and it gave me a bit of a smirk knowing that those bad guys would no longer be causing anymore trouble.  Then the gotta kill someone quests get a little more complicated because of various reason like getting in trouble with the local law enforcement because they do not know the circumstances of the death, but you do and having to work around that. Then there are the multi part quests and also the persuading someone quests, which can be a pain but are fun because you get to use your brain and allow you to give your sword a rest for a bit. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 8:30 am |
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Anubis
Guest
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| some notes about Morrowind (from a beginner) - very long... |
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Hi,
I have followed the discusssion, it is quite interesting to me, because I am trying to appreciate Morrowind but so far I have failed. To be fair, even if I share many of the complains about Morrowind described before, I have to say my opinion (and perhaps someone else's too) could be biased by the fact many have played Gothic before Morrowind.
IMHO, Morrowind has only one major fault: game performances are extremely poor. The FPS rate is painful, despite the fact the game world has been fragmented in discrete areas (cells) and within each cell you have other discrete units (indoor chunks).
Now, with those design choices in place, it is rather depressing to end up with 10-20 FPS on a mid-to-high end gaming system (let's say a system with a +1.4 GHz processor, 512 Mbytes of RAM and a video card with 64 Mbytes)!
Please understand me right: I am not an FPS freak, but at 10 FPS the game is S L U G G I S H and you can feel it.
My view on that is rather simple: I strongly believe many people would have accepted those poor perfomances by having something in return: either an extremely dynamic world, or an outstanding AI, or epic battles with tens of NPCs, or else.
Alas, those things are NOT in the game. And immediately, I can fall in the trap of comparing Gothic to Morrowind and end up in sheer depression. Have a look:
1) Gothic has a very big world (of course, smaller compared to Morrowind) but it does not impose any "indoor/outdoor pause" nor any "cell transition" and the FPS rate is amazing. As a gamer, I am prepared to trade "GOOD FPS" vs, "not too big world". If that fails, I am prepared to trade a "fragmented big world with loading pauses" with "GOOD FPS". For sure, I am not prepared to BOTH "POOR FPS" AND "fragmented big world with loading pauses". This is poor design.
2) Gothic has many NPCs (again, not so many as Morrowind). Gothic's NPC can be divided in two categories: "complex" NPC - the one with names - and "simple" NPCs - e.g. all the diggers, all the guards, all the trolls, you get it. "complex" NPC can talk with you, give you quest, react in different way and so on. "simple" NPC say more or less always the same thing. So far so good? Well, in Morrowind you do not have this difference (please, this is how I feel it, I will be happy to discover I am wrong) BUT all NPCs behave exactly in the same way. All NPCs talk with you BUT all NPCs say more or less the same thing. So you end up by entering in a city, talking to 10 NPCs, get the same advices/rumors/whatever and the 10th one (or the 1st if you have been lucky) will give you a quest. Again, I have Morrowind with many clueless NPCs and the little Gothic with less NPC but showing some sparks of life.
Again, this is simply poor design.
3) NPC life: again in Gothic NPCs have things to do: they eat, sleep, fight, talk, go to sleep. They do different things: guards that patrol, or stay on post, people that work, people that sell, or sleep or whatever. On the contrary, in Morrowind NPCs really seem "mindless robots" as someone said. I have to confess that when I got out of the Census office the first time, I had *exactly* that impression. It is funny, but I could "see" in my mind the source code used to move NPCs ... I believe something like that for sure:
while (TRUE)
{
route = random_direction();
steps = random_numbef_of_steps();
while (steps-- >= 0)
{
move_a_step(route);
if ( bump_with_another_NPC() or bump_with_an_obstacle() )
break;
if ( player_want_to_talk() )
have_a_chat();
}
}
It is ... depressing to see NPC moving! The only thing more depressing are static NPC, for example the lady robbed by the bandit ... Days and Nights despite rain and snow in the same place. It is so utterly illogic!
What would have costed to put a .. little more variety? To make NPC to go sleep at night, to have guards patroling areas, roads, dungeons, or else. To have NPC *doing* something. In Morrowind I have a world with lots of NPCs doing ... nothing. Thanks a lot!
I could go on foverever: thousands of different weapons, armor pieces, etc etc but all of them are more or less the same. Who cares if I have 500 different daggers when the only difference is +/- something?
What I personally feel about Morrowind is the following: Morrowind has been made big because there are many (perhaps too many) things and most of them are more or less the same: weapons, places, quests, NPCs,... As consequence, I have an oversized world which is difficult to manage even by rather muscled computers AND at the same time it is plain boring because everything looks and feels artificial and static. I have poor performances AND a boring world.
Here, I believe Bethesda failed. Instead of having a smaller, better, more dynamic and varied world (a-la-Gothic) they created a bigger, boring and slow world.
I am not criticising what Morrowind HAS. I am pointing out what Morrowind LACKS.
Cheers,
Anubis |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 10:17 am |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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sbatch10. I understand that you are dissapointed if you expected that kind of action and interaction. You DID expect way too much. I also feel that some more use could have been made of all the objects in the game - it wouldn't seem so difficult to give knifes and forks weapon functionality or pots and vases "throwing star" capabilites (Hey, thats a mod idea, isnt it?).
So really I agree with you. But it also needs to be said that all the information of what features were goanna be in the game and what wouldn't be in was out there, released by the devs, available on the net. NEVER believe the hype, try to be informed before you buy. |
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Fri Jun 14, 2002 12:19 pm |
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