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| Which do you prefer? |
| Non-stop action |
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5% |
[ 2 ] |
| Immersion and story |
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95% |
[ 38 ] |
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| Total Votes : 40 |
Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Oh, please.
In Doom you play the role of a space marine on a mission to save the world. You're still playing A role. Enough hair-splitting, alright?
Then you can talk about heightened freedom in games like Baldur's Gate, giving you more choice, which makes it a BETTER RPG.
Saying a hack'n'slash game like Diablo 2 requires no skills is only silly. You die a lot, on battle net you need help from others at certain places, or else you're basically stuck. Skill choices and items in PvP and hardcore-mode also make the game tougher on you.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
Thu Oct 09, 2003 1:44 pm |
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Lannister
Head Merchant
Joined: 17 Jan 2003
Posts: 61
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well Hexy,
if you argue like that, than nearly every game is a RPG, cause in Adventures, in Shooters, in RPGs, in tactical shooters, etc. you take on a role to play in.
But that isnt the role-playing we "hardcorers" mean. Do you have any choice to act different, to play your character differently in shooters like doom ? Are there conversations where you can give different responses who demonstrate different character traits ?
No you don`t , and that is why Games like Diablo are not RPG`s in the real sense.
Don`t get me wrong, i have played Diablo or similar, but these games are what I would call Fantasy-Action-Games not RPG`s in the way I see it.
L. |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 2:34 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
Hexy, seriously, do you want games to be sorted into genres or not? My point being that the type of game we call an RPG has to be called something. If anyone can think of a better name for the genre than Role-Playing Game, please speak up (I am not being sarcastic). We can't call them adventure games, can we? That name's already been taken for a genre. We can't call them fantasy games, because not all RPGs are fantasy-based, and some fantasy games are not RPGs (such as the crappy Lord of the Rings games), and thus do not appeal to the same kind of audience. What I'm saying now is that we (RPG enthusiasts) may not be able to identify the type of game we like to play as an RPG anymore, since there is such a fine line between action games and RPGs today, and many games are on that line (I'm sure there have been enough examples given already). Please don't take this post offensively. I am not insulting you. Just please consider what I have said.
_________________
OMG! WTF?! MONKEYS!!!!
=Member of numerous usergroups=
=Active in none of them=
Mediocreties, I absolve you! |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:19 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
And we just need to say that every "sorting" brings difficulties. If we define RPGs, Action games... there will be a lot games with elements from many types.
And it is even worse. There will be games that have whole and complex things from one type and in same time there will be no other elements that form this certain style.
Diablo I + II is very good example and therefor there are so many hard discussions about this one. Diablo has (in my opinion) good character developement. At least this character developement is better than in several games that everyone calls RPGs. But in same time there is no non-linearity (and everyone says that RPGs must be at least partly non-linear).
Types of games is good tool, however there will be games that will not fit into this cathegories.
I have no problem with discussion about it. I personaly do not mind if someone one calls Diablo RPG or Action game. But well there are people who want to make these definitions better and more complex, I wish them to reach their goal :]. |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:48 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
You make a good point about character development, but there are action games that have character development. One, that I recently purchased, is Star Wars Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy. This game has you increase your Force powers over time, learn new lightsaber stances, and eventually have the option to use dual or a double-bladed lightsaber. It's still an action game, not an RPG. One RPG element doesn't make a game an RPG (in my opinion).
_________________
OMG! WTF?! MONKEYS!!!!
=Member of numerous usergroups=
=Active in none of them=
Mediocreties, I absolve you! |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 4:59 pm |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
There is no clear-cut and definitive answer to what RPGs supposed to be. And neither the genre itself is defined by few limited RPG elements, or should be defined by few "supposed RPG elements."
However, there are "tendencies" (general similarities) and "common traits" among RPGs. These various elements have different priority in different RPGs. Some RPGs are more linear such as Final Fantasy series; some RPGs is heavily loaded with story and intricate plot to draw you in such as Planescape: Torment; some stressing on open-ended game world and gameplay such as The Elder Scrolls series; some focus on hack & slash and dungeon crawl such as the IWD series, or the most recent TOEE.
You would say that IWD series and TOEE is a tactical hack & slash, and thus better or different from Diablo. Yet, can you say that Diablo completely lacks anything tactical or has no depth in the combat system? (plus the loot scheme, armor, weaponry, skill structure, character planning and levelling, etc, etc?).
Yeah, some RPGs player (old & new) don't like hack & slash, and hate Diablo and blamed Diablo series for destroying or contaminating the RPG genre. But isn't hack & slash element exist long ago, and even became the focus for few old RPGs? E.g, Akalabeth by Lord British (ealier than Ultima 1); Here, let me quote the synopsis from that game:
quote:
The goal of the game is only to slay monsters. Your first task is to find the castle and talk to Lord British. He will then give you a quest to slay some vile monster. Once you have descended the dungeons and slayed the monster, you return to Lord British and he has you kill an even harder monster. Once you have killed the hardest monster the game is won.
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 7:09 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
What I have always assumed an RPG to be is a combat simulation. PnP RPG was invented to simulate combat (or at least that is what 99% of the source books are about). The difining characteristic of an RPG in earlier CRPG days was combat. If my skill as a player determined the outcome of a fight then it wasn't an RPG. If my characters skill determined the outcome then it was an RPG (coupled with me making decisions for the character).
Zelda 2 had stats and skills, open-ended game play, but was twitch based so not an RPG in my opinion then. Darklands was real-time but definitly an RPG. Morrowind is twitch-based but most people think it's an RPG. Gothic is super-twitch and considered an RPG. Diablo is semi-twitch but only in the Lionheart, Dungeon Siege sense where you have to click on the 5 million enemies charging you and there is not much tactical choices (wait, wait,....alright, drink a potion now). So combat type can't determine an RPG.
I've played "RPG's" with stats and no skills, skills and no stats, and no stats or skills at all.
So if you think about it now, the defining characteristic of an RPG only has to be talking to people that you can get to anytime you want.
"I can click on this guy and talk to him as many times as I want, this is an RPG."
That is the only universal trait I can think of in all RPG's. |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 9:33 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
What do you mean by "twitched?" If you're saying (not saying you are) that Gothic is not an RPG, saying that is like saying that you don't need food to survive.
_________________
OMG! WTF?! MONKEYS!!!!
=Member of numerous usergroups=
=Active in none of them=
Mediocreties, I absolve you! |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:27 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
twitch means player skills. In Gothic it helps to learn how to do combos and when to swing at the right time, like in say, street fighter. I think Gothic is an RPG because you can talk to people. |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:36 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
"I think Gothic is an RPG because you can talk to people." That's a pretty funny quote.
Lol! 
_________________
OMG! WTF?! MONKEYS!!!!
=Member of numerous usergroups=
=Active in none of them=
Mediocreties, I absolve you!
Last edited by MageofFire on Fri Oct 10, 2003 1:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:38 pm |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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interesting |
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Fri Oct 10, 2003 12:41 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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How was Zelda 2 open ended? As far as I remember it could only end in one way.
And yes, hack'n'slash is what gave birth to RPGs as we know them today, something "hardcore" people tend to forget at convenient times.
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:16 am |
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Zagorin
Village Dweller
Joined: 23 Sep 2002
Posts: 19
Location: Alexandroupoli,Greece |
Υου are right. We "hardcore" rpg players forget sometimes that all the old Computers RPG which has defined this term was Hack and Slack. (Eye of the Beholder,Pool of Randiance and the sequels,Wizardry,Might and Magic etc) |
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Fri Oct 10, 2003 6:57 am |
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Zephyr Elvirion
Baron of the Court
Joined: 23 Mar 2003
Posts: 336
Location: New Zealand. |
Yep, as much as I despise the hack n' slash, sexist games that're masquerading under the guise of an RPG there's a place for them - although it's not at MY place, lol.
Dungeon Seige was the first CRPG I played and although I got thru it I was continually thinking 'there must be more to Role Playing than this?' Fortunately I was introduced to other 'True' RPGs, and came to realise that there WAS a real RPG genre out there - but the DS & the Diablo clones were being lumped in with the RPGs to 'cash in', or maybe to 'rope in' is better, the small number of real RPG fans there are out there. The more who buy the game the more money they make. I think that's why the newer games are being billed as Action/Adventure/Strategy/RPGs (take Once Upon a Knight for example). By making the description as broad as possible they broaden their selling base.
Gosh I wandered off a bit there, But, yeah, I'd rather have a great story, great graphics, great scenery, great characters that actually DO something to progress the story than have an exceptional hack n' slash with lots of blood and gore. If you want that then go play a shooter. <ducks> 
_________________
There're 3 sorts of people who're good at maths - those that are and those that aren't. |
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Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:56 am |
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ThouShaltNot
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 27 Feb 2003
Posts: 32
Location: New Zealand |
I play RPGs (and, for that matter, all games) mostly for their story. I hold games to the same standards as books and movies - if the written dialogue or voice acting is bad, or the story is (unintentionally) cheesy, it lowers my enjoyment of the game to such a degree that even the best gameplay in the world couldn't save it. Even roleplaying options and player freedom take a back seat to story in my mind.
Why not just watch a movie or read a book, you may ask? Because RPGs have the potential to be a better storytelling medium. They are long enough to develop the epic plotlines and complex character interaction of a good novel, but they also offer the intense aural and visual immersion of a movie (well, almost). They also have the advantage that the player can shape the story to their liking. For example, if you wanted your character to have a fling with Jaheira in BG2, the option was there, but if you didn't want to go near that icky romance stuff, you could have him tell her to sod off.
Unfortunately most games are not made for people like me. In fact, as Hexy said, most game stories are no substitute for a good book. Oh well. Sucks to be me. |
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Fri Oct 10, 2003 11:54 am |
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