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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
Druin: "Getting beat to death doesn't count as having an impact on combat?"
Remember all the flack about not having a pause select function in LH? From it's RPG fanbase.
Thank you for not wanting me to give up the good fight, so here is my good fight continued.
A RPG cannot be twitch based. That is the opposite of a RPG. RPG stands for role-playing-game. To play a role you have to be limited by the characters strengths and weaknesses (abilities) that you play. I am not a lvl 5 fighter with longsword mastery, the character I play is. I do not know how to use my mana to summon up a fairy to fight my enemies, the character I play does. How on God’s green earth am I supposed to play a role and also help the role I am supposed to be playing out with my mouse-clicking, keyboard hitting skills. That is a contradiction. Anyone know what the rule of contradiction is? It means that anything that doesn’t stand up to it is a fallacy and cannot be true. I repeat in large letters CANNOT BE TRUE.
Here are some examples:
Example#1
Man is good
I am a man
I am bad.
That does not hold up to logic
Example #2
One side is wrong
Everything I say is right
My side is wrong
That does not hold up to logic either, everyone knows that my side is right. And my side is backed up by logic, facts, historical precedence, and smarmy remarks.
_________________
Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:54 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
It is really the rule of non-contradiction. Still means the same thing, and makes the same point. Woops.
_________________
Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:32 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
To play a role you have to be limited by the characters strengths and weaknesses (abilities) that you play. I am not a lvl 5 fighter with longsword mastery, the character I play is. I do not know how to use my mana to summon up a fairy to fight my enemies, the character I play does.
Unfortunately, this had to be overly repeated throughout this entire thread.
However, it's a HUGE difference having a twitch-based game like Gothic and a twitch-based game like Diablo. In Diablo, the combat is more up to the character than in Gothic or Arx Fatalis. Thus Diablo has more Role-playing in that point-of-view.
Plus, turn based may give you a more realistic approach in the sense of character role-playing in combat, but takes away in overall realism (combat becomes quirky and dissorted).
Pause and play is thusly the best form of combat. |
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Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:10 pm |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
A RPG cannot be twitch based.
You keep calling this a fact... but unless you can show me a gaming dictionary, perferably made by people older than 16 with some experience in making games, that defines the limits of an rpg its still just going to be an opinion.
_________________
If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:57 pm |
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Dwango
Head Merchant
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 68
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Continuing Korplem's argument, when you go back to the original argument, Roqua's logic is based on opinion.
Roqua's Quote:
Games can have "RPG" elements, but that doesn't make them RPGs. My reflexes, aim, and ability to push a button at the correct time should have no effect on me playing an RPG at all---Zero Effect. Effect null. None at all. Zip.
This is the basis of your argument. But it is not fact. Yes, you are very logical in your argument, but when you use opinions as the basis, not facts, you build on shaky ground at best. Many people do not agree with this "fact", so it is not concensus. And, being it can't be measured independantly (as really only numbers can be.) It is not fact.
In my opinion, if a game uses statistic in defining combat skills and abilities, then it can be an RPG. That does not mean it is, but it can be. So, as already shown earlier in this thread, strength and weapon skill level can improve the player's ability to fight. A player cannot use personal skill at first level to kill many creatures. A player must level in order to defeat many of the game monsters. So level has affect on combat ability. This is enough evidence, based on my opinion, to say combat can be considered part of an RPG. Yes, there are twitched based elements to the combat that must be learned by a player. But that is not enough, in my opinion, to prevent Gothic from being an RPG.
In Roqua's opinion it can't be an RPG. In mine it could still be. See, opinion.
One man's pi is another man's onion, hence we have opinion. 
_________________
Ha, Ha, Ha.... Oh, you were SERIOUS?
-Dwango |
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Tue Nov 04, 2003 4:59 pm |
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MageofFire
Griller of Molerats
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 1594
Location: Monastery of Innos |
Boy, according to you, Roqua, RPG guidlines are very rigid. A game has to meet certain requirements and can't have anything different, according to you. I disagree (again). I think that an RPG can have things that are not RPG based and still be an RPG. And your "facts" aren't necessarily facts.
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OMG! WTF?! MONKEYS!!!!
=Member of numerous usergroups=
=Active in none of them=
Mediocreties, I absolve you! |
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Tue Nov 04, 2003 5:30 pm |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
I don't know how to explain myself any better. I am not knocking Gothic. But yes, in order to be a RPG, there is a very strict guidline--it is called the ability to play a role. I cannot play a role if I (myself) am influencing the role. I would be playing Roqua the Fighter lvl5/Toni the computer game player. I do not see how that is possible. If you guys do please explain it to me.
Maybe I do not explain myself to well, but I know certain things to be true. I know an FPS has to be in first person, and have something to shoot. A flight sim has to have flight. An adventure game needs to have an adventure. An action game needs action. A racing game has to have a race. A strategy game needs to let you stratagize. And a RPG needs to let you play a role. If a role is limited by my own abilities, I am not actually playing a role, or a role playing game.
_________________
Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Wed Nov 05, 2003 1:41 am |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
I cannot play a role if I (myself) am influencing the role.
I can.
If you like dialogue then you'll need to influence it. You cant just have your char walk up to people and choose random lines to say, you wouldnt get anywhere.
Even in PnP you need to influence your role. You dont just tell your character what to do, you enter the role. Its like driving a car you dont run after it and keep track of the stats you actually steer it.
_________________
If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Wed Nov 05, 2003 2:22 am |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
quote:
Originally posted by Roqua
A RPG cannot be twitch based. That is the opposite of a RPG. RPG stands for role-playing-game.
First, could you define exactly what is "twitch-based" gameplay? Is it constant clicking on enemies? Tapping keys? Clear examples of what is and what is not?
quote:
To play a role you have to be limited by the characters strengths and weaknesses (abilities) that you play.
Certain limitations are imposed upon you, but also personal strengths and weaknesses mesh with the character to create something more than just the character you play. To me, "good" roleplaying abolishes the division between the player and the character, so that what happens to the character also happens, in a real mental and emotional sense, to the player. But the more detached I am from a character, the less I can play or fit in his or her role. I also think it's possible to roleplay several characters at once, but this is harder and more distracting.
quote:
I am not a lvl 5 fighter with longsword mastery, the character I play is. I do not know how to use my mana to summon up a fairy to fight my enemies, the character I play does. How on God’s green earth am I supposed to play a role and also help the role I am supposed to be playing out with my mouse-clicking, keyboard hitting skills. That is a contradiction. Anyone know what the rule of contradiction is? It means that anything that doesn’t stand up to it is a fallacy and cannot be true. I repeat in large letters CANNOT BE TRUE.
Your 5th level swordsman does not have a mind, much less the ability to speak or interact in a meaningful manner with the virtual world. How does he know to use a sword? Because he obtained a skill or feat (thanks to the game programmers who provided the feature) to use it, plus someone directs him. However, when you play him, the amalgam of your abilities, your will, and your mind are projected and incorporated within your character's limited abilities to make the resultant character much more.
quote:
Here are some examples:
Example#1
Man is good
I am a man
I am bad.
That does not hold up to logic
Example #2
One side is wrong
Everything I say is right
My side is wrong
I worry about your logic. 
_________________
Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Wed Nov 05, 2003 4:42 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Your 5th level swordsman does not have a mind, much less the ability to speak or interact in a meaningful manner with the virtual world. How does he know to use a sword? Because he obtained a skill or feat (thanks to the game programmers who provided the feature) to use it, plus someone directs him. However, when you play him, the amalgam of your abilities, your will, and your mind are projected and incorporated within your character's limited abilities to make the resultant character much more.
*Sigh*
Again, must I repeat that the character is the PERSONIFICATION of A ROLE?
It has nothing to do with the A.I. or whatever.
The level 5 fighter presents the role of a not-so-skilled fighter. Thus, it should ACT as that, not like a not-so-skilled fighter being poorly controlled by an even less skillfull fighter... IN COMBAT.
Again, there's a differance controlling every move and controlling the character IN GENERAL. The latter gives more freedom to the role. |
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Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:30 am |
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Roqua
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump |
quote:
Originally posted by Korplem
Even in PnP you need to influence your role. You dont just tell your character what to do, you enter the role. Its like driving a car you dont run after it and keep track of the stats you actually steer it.
Exept the character whose role I am playing is not influenced by my reflexes, timing, etc. in combat during PnP game. I've never actually played PnP but it seems to be very non-twitch-based.
If I was going to shoot someone with a longbow in a PnP game, and instead of rolling the dice and having all my attributes and magic weapons affect the chance roll to hit, I was supposed to shoot a target with a wrist rocket. And hitting the target with a wrist rocket is the sole determanent if I hit the someone I was aiming at in the PnP game. That is not role playing. Even if I started out with a rubber band, then moved up to a sling-shot, then a wrist rocket to show my stats are improving and I have a magic weapon.
It might be fun and more exciting than pure chance, but it is not, and never will be role playing
_________________
Vegitarian is the Indian word for lousey hunter. |
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Wed Nov 05, 2003 5:59 pm |
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Korplem
Swashbuckler
Joined: 23 Dec 2002
Posts: 853
Location: Pearl Harbor, HI |
 I dont understand how you can think that rolling dice is the sole determinant of roleplaying. The fact that you are pretending to be a different person (which inherently means that YOU control the character not some magical dice) in a world or a story that you can effect is the only thing you need to role play.
quote:
the character whose role I am playing is not influenced by my reflexes, timing, etc. in combat during PnP game
This is irrelevent, in PnP you still have to tell your character to swing or cast a spell. They dont just start immediatly hacking... If you want your character to kick somebody in the balls you tell them to kick them in the balls. Of course, its not real time like gothic, but thats only because of the limitations of PnP and the stats. Imagine how all hell would break loose if they did play PnP in real time (heh heh...).
The fact that we can have a computer simulate a fight in real time is just the evolution of role playing. If the devs added a feature to kick somebody in the balls then it would be the exact same as saying you wanted your character to kick somebody in the balls in a PnP game except that you wouldnt have to wait your turn.
_________________
If soot stains your tunic, dye it black. This is vengeance.
-The Prince of Nothing |
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Wed Nov 05, 2003 6:44 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
Why is it okay for the character to posess the mental ability of the player, but not some of the physical ability as well?
Another question: How can a RPG really be an RPG when the player controls more than one character?
_________________
"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Wed Nov 05, 2003 7:50 pm |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Originally posted by Jung
Why is it okay for the character to posess the mental ability of the player, but not some of the physical ability as well?
Another question: How can a RPG really be an RPG when the player controls more than one character?
1. Because there has to be SOME actual role-playing, which is more defined by mind than by body, and, because physical traits are more limiting for RPGs. Furthermore, character intelligence is often expressed quite well in terms of dialogue and such. Especially in games like Arcanum and Fallout.
2.Because you're still playing a role with each individual character.
Next "question" please. |
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Wed Nov 05, 2003 8:23 pm |
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas |
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
1. Because there has to be SOME actual role-playing, which is more defined by mind than by body, and, because physical traits are more limiting for RPGs. Furthermore, character intelligence is often expressed quite well in terms of dialogue and such. Especially in games like Arcanum and Fallout.
1.What if we advanced technology to the point where we had a holodeck like on Star Trek, and could wander a virtual world and interact with virtual beings. The NPCs in the hologram view you as a huge warrior. The NPCs and environment physically react to you as if you were incredibly strong. But, your own body still controlled movements of the virtual character that the NPCs and environment react to, as well as dialog. Would you write this off as not an RPG, even though you are completely are the character and stats enhance your own ability? To me this would be the ultimate imersive RPG, and I give this extreme example because I don't really understand the objection to player controlling character movement more directly.
I understand that it is not as pure as stats for combat, but roleplaying isn't all about combat.
quote:
Originally posted by Hexy
2.Because you're still playing a role with each individual character.
Next "question" please.
2. I suppose, but to me, it feels like I am controlling some sort of machine than a character. Like, when you play a racing game, and you select the perfect attributes for you race car, then see how it performs. More strategy than roleplaying.
_________________
"You two are a regular ol' Three Musketeers." |
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Wed Nov 05, 2003 9:05 pm |
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