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Loremaster
Village Leader
Joined: 31 Mar 2002
Posts: 88
Location: Hampshire, England |
Spot on, Alex  !
There are indeed many ways to complete a quest. Kill, bribe, steal, supply the money/item required out of your own resources, etc.
There are also several ways killing quest NPCs are handled by your guild steward. Sometimes you will be praised for bringing the person to justice, or you may be told that the steward would have preferred you not to have killed that person. Then again, the steward may recognise that sometimes such an extreme action is warranted, as in the case of a debtor who refuses to honour his debt, or alternatively you may have brought shame upon your guild by slaying the person without good cause.
If anyone plays the game in a shallow or linear way then they will have much to complain about, but little to substantiate their complaints. The depth here is incredible, and with the editor anyone who doesn't feel the game gives them what they want can simply add it in for their and everyone else's pleasure.
What more could one ask for?
Ah yes, the graphics of a state-of-the-art first person shooter. Oh my, we have those too ! |
Mon Jun 10, 2002 11:59 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by AlexScherr
Interesting stats, Joey Nipps
ill X - 46
Fetch or deliver something - 71
Convince X (of whatever) or kill him - 25
Miscellaneous - 10
But those numbers are suspect: that's what you're told to do. And if you do what you're told, that's what you'll get.
Suspect? Why? Do you suspect somehow I manufactured data?
quote:
But I've been able to solve multiple different quests in multiple different ways. I've even been able to avoid a substantial percentage of the "kill someone" quests, by persuading them to leave, or by providing trumped up proof of their death.
Please notice that I have a separate category for those you could convince or kill. The ones you were simply told to kill - that is what you had to do. But again, part of the problem is that there is no effective, practical or storyline difference between killing the NPC or convincing him of whatever. In the case of convincing (in most cases) it was simply a matter of paying him enough gold until he "liked" you well enough and he agreed to whatever was applicable. Real roleplay there.
quote:
And of course, even the "same" quests involve different challenges, different locales, and different kinds of approach, and bring me in contact with characters who add a little more to my overall understanding of the game world.
Different challenges??? Let me see - go to this "cavern door", go inside, kill whoever is there because they were virtually always attacking you - kill the one you were supposed to - leave. The "cavern door" may have a different name - but that was about it.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 12:04 am |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Loremaster
Spot on, Alex !
There are also several ways killing quest NPCs are handled by your guild steward. Sometimes you will be praised for bringing the person to justice, or you may be told that the steward would have preferred you not to have killed that person. Then again, the steward may recognise that sometimes such an extreme action is warranted, as in the case of a debtor who refuses to honour his debt, or alternatively you may have brought shame upon your guild by slaying the person without good cause.
HUH??? Ok, the guild steward is happy - you get the reward. Next, the guild steward is a little miffed (perhaps thinking you should have handled it a different way) - you get the reward. Third option, the guild steward is totally pissed at you for the way you muffed the job by taking the wrong approach - you get the reward. The result is the same in each and every case. In one example, I had killed a bad guy before even receiving the quest (why? because he attacked me inside a cave where he and his buddies were) - so when I get the quest the game automatically sees I had already killed the man. So the guild leader responds with "I cannot imagine why you would have already killed him before we told you that you should do it - but ok, we will give you the reward anyway." This is the difference you talk about???????? This is ZERO roleplay and lousy story writing.
Again - NO difference whatsoever in the results of your actions.
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When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 12:25 am |
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sauron38
Rara Avis
Joined: 14 Jan 2002
Posts: 4396
Location: Winnipeg's Sanctum Sanctorum |
How many of those would have multiple "endings"? As in Fargoth's place, you can either take all 300 gold, or give the other guy 200. Again, in the Glassworker's quest, you can either give them the Limeware, or return it to the owner and tell him about the breaches in security. Also, how did you count the Stronghold quests- as one or as a half dozen? Did you only count one Great Houses set of quests, as you can only be in one? What about freeing slaves? Surely the fact that they needn't be done in any particular order deserves credit?
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Make good choices. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 1:21 am |
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AlexScherr
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 48
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Glad you're responding, Nipps.
Suspect:
Not becuase of the data, but becuase of your interpretation. You've assumed that your categories involve the only way to solve the respective quests, when in fact, you can solve many of them in different ways, including different ways of killing, if that's what you have to do. I suspect that the number of quests where you have to kill the character is a lot less than your data indicates. You'd have to play the game more slowly and carefully to find that out, and not just do exactly what the quest assigner tells you to do. Your data only describes what the quest assigner tells you to do . . . and, as I've said, if you always follow instructions, that's what you'll get.
Persuade / kill vs. kill:
No, actually not correct. Many of the main quests of the various guilds instruct you to kill people you don't need to kill; and in fact, I've played a character that has gotten to the top of many guilds with a minimum of killing.
As to persuasion, you do have a choice not to use gold if you find it offensive: you can rely on speechcraft, or even on threats, each of which produce a separate effect on NPC's. I've even played one whole character wilfully poor, so that I have to use speechcraft and skill development. That probably doesn't make sense to you, since you seem always default to killing, but that doesn't mean you can't do it that way.
Different challenges, different locales, different approaches, different story context:
I agree that you could describe the game the way that you do: go to cavern, open door, kill opposition, including assigned victim, leave.
But you could also describe it this way: go to cavern, open door, sneak past monsters, steal all you want, ONLY kill assigned character (unless you can steal the proof of death, in which case don't kill anyone), sneak out through the underground river you might have missed if you hadn't looked, and go sell the loot, one item at a time, bartering to get the best price.
Or this way: on your way to cavern, check out a nearby shrine, to heal some attributes that some blighted creature had harmed; outside the cavern, pick some flowers, and create a few useful potions or poisons; open front door, or go in the back (underwater) door you stumbled on by taking a short swim for pearl fishing; use spells on some monsters, paralyze then pick off some more, get others at a bad angle and kill them with arrows; when you've killed the one necessary victim, making sure to trap their soul in a soul gem; enchant that victim's shield to give you a memorable artifact, not knowing whether you'll keep it or sell it in the next town; read everything in sight, including books which introduce you to another part of the game world; make a note to visit there after you leave; leave and go to that other part of the world where you find another quest that takes you somewhere else . . . .
While I prefer my two ways of describing what happens in a quest to yours (which I'll agree with you sounds pretty damn boring and unimaginative), the point is that the game allows you to imagine your game play in any of these ways. If you want to do it that way. If you want to get through the cavern as fast as possible, and not look around, you can do it, and it WILL be boring.
As to your reply to Loremaster, on reward structure:
Actually each quest (as I know you know) comes with more than just the rewards from the quest giver, which actually do vary (although you'll just say that the rewards also fall into five distinct categories and they're all the same and thus boring).
Completing each quest: gives you a reward; moves you to the next quest in that particular line; may move you up in rank, assuming you meet the other skill and attribute requirements, which if you don't you have to go somewhere else to develop; gives you new conversation points with other NPC's, many of which actually do have distinct things to say about your quest; increases your skills and attributes by whichever ones you chose to exercise during the quest; and gives you still more information about the underlying game world (if you choose to read it), much of which actually does help you complete other quests, or even create your own self-generated quest structure.
You're right that you don't have to pay attention to these results of the quest, but you could, and if you choose to, you might find the game more interesting. Of course, you could just as easily choose to see what the quest giver gives you as the only reward and the only point of the quest, and thus to be disappointed in it, as you surely would be, having missed everything else.
My point here is that your critique about the game really reflects YOUR choices about how to play it. Nothing makes you play the game that way, just as nothing in the game forces me to play the game or enjoy its fictional world in the way I do. I just think my way is more interesting than yours, and so do some others.
Alex |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 1:26 am |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
I like the story, quests and the world design of Morrowind. It is the combat that becomes boring after level 15.
I am playing a Redgard "Kampfmagier" (main skills: long blade, armorer,restoration, block, heavy armor, minor skills: some magic schools), at the moment i am at day 200, level 40, Archmaster of the Redorian House, Master of the Fighters Guild and Wizard. The only guy that survived longer than 20 sec was Umbra ("Kill me - i want to die") in the hills of Suran. I am NOT a powergamer - i am simply solving the quests the game gives to me.
That Bethesda can make much more challenging combat games, they have proved with Battlespire, even the adventure game Redguard is harder to play.
Sometimes i ask myself: why are my opponents not using their skills and weapons. i never found a mage that is levitating for example.
Daedras were much harder to beat in Daggerfall.
I think Bethesda have made the strategic decision to make the combat easy enough for the "Diablo-generation" of players. For veteran players let's hope for the patch. A difficulty option easy/normal/hard/nightmare should be easy to implement.
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=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild= |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 9:37 am |
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Loremaster
Village Leader
Joined: 31 Mar 2002
Posts: 88
Location: Hampshire, England |
HiddenX,
The official patch that is due any day now will address the difficulty level, as do various player-made mods, although I would be wary of the latter as they may unwittingly affect general game balance adversely.
That feature is all we do know about the patch, although I'm sure Bethesda will fix a few bugs, and they have confirmed in an interview that they are committed to supporting the game (and that with the volume of sales and critical success of Morrowind a further game in the series is pretty inevitable - let's hope it doesn't take another six years).
I have mixed views about the combat, my character is now level 32 and is having no problems with combat, not least as I've enchanted a pretty powerful sword so that it absorbs health with every strike, so it could be said that I'm finding combat too easy. On the other hand, its not an action game or FPS and getting through combat easily leaves one free to deal with the other aspects of the game such as questing and exploring, for example. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 10:48 am |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
Barring NPCs that attack me on sight and the main story line, I recall killing only 2 NPCs for my quests. One was part of a group that attacked me on sight, but he didn't want to and the other was a known criminal with a bounty on his(her?) head. All other NPCs had a way around killing. So I really don't see why people are making all the fuss.
BTW Alex, that first post was very nicely put.
Just one thing I wanted to add... Was gonna do it in a seperate thread, but what the heck; here is good as any place.
If you look carefully through game files, you'll notice that the game expects you to level only up to about 20 or so. For one, there are no level-up messages any more past 20. Highest NPC levels are around 25. End bosses are around 30-40. I finished the game at level 18. And let me tell you, it was anything but super easy. If I didn't get one hit critical kills, my opponents could actually hurt me. Quite bad sometimes. Dagoth Ur kept handing my butt back to me on a silver platter, as I couldn't survive his pounding while trying to kill the heart. And fighting him was out of the question. I tried that and I used up all my scrolls, all my weapon juice, much of my magicka and he didn't seem fased at all. Took me about 5 reloads before I finally got a lucky shot at the heart and managed to get away.
I've seen people complain how game is too easy for them at 70. I trully can't understand that. I haven't explored half the map with the character with which I finished the game. But that means that my next character, that will also go only up to 20, has a whole huge map to explore, that I have never seen before. Meaning, I can play a whole new game with 80% fresh content that is again challanging.
A common theme keeps being argued in these threads over and over again. Bunch of people on the left arguing that the game sux as it is devoid of anything interesting beyond hour 20. And bunch of people on the right that keep trying to convince people on the left that this game is the most amazing thing ever and that all you need is a little imagination. And unlike all other games prior to this, this game actually encourages imagination. People on the left call people on the right fanbois. I guess it's clear to see which people this game caters to.
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 1:57 pm |
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AlexScherr
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 48
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Thanks Moondragon.
And I agree with your perception that the game does assume that you won't level up much past 20. Of course, mods can adjust that by increasing the difficulty of the approach. I've created my own mod with a new race that actually starts you 20 points behind the average skills and attributes of the default races. By the time you reach level 20, your skills and abilities are just barely reaching where the default races start you. Another way to enforce the difficulty level. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 2:55 pm |
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Loremaster
Village Leader
Joined: 31 Mar 2002
Posts: 88
Location: Hampshire, England |
I'm not sure I agree with you guys about the levelling. I think the problem is that Bethesda have to assume that some people will want to run straight through the main storyline and nothing else, and will complain if they don't hit a high enough level doing that to be able to complete the game that way. Thus the combat has to be set so that you can fnish the game just playing through the main quest, and it may be that 20 is about the level you'd reach doing that.
BUT, Bethesda also know that most of the players will want to be sidetracked doing other things, and indeed they positively encourage it. So, many players will reach the level cap - which depending on your starting stats etc is likely to be in the low 70's - before they complete the main quest, in which case the game will seem increasingly easy combat-wise for them.
Thus, Bethesda have included a comparatively new feature in the game, namely levelled creatures, that is to say mobs that are spawned at or about your level whatever that may happen to be. My hunch is that its the inadequate implementation of that feature which is the real problem for a lot of people, and that's something that they may well address in the patch as well as players having addressed it in plug-ins. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 3:12 pm |
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MoonDragon
High Emperor
Joined: 25 May 2002
Posts: 1254
Location: Waterloo, Canada |
Leveled creatures are +/- 2 levels from your current level. This allows you to explore much of the map in any order you want, very early in the game.
I played the game 2 weeks straight, for an average 5 hours a day. That's 70-75 hours. I reached level 18. Was head of my house and have climbed quite high in many of the guilds (haven't gone all the way because many of the guilds have asked me to do stuff I wasn't ready to do for them). I explored many ruins and many ancestral tombs. Did a lot of swimming and running on foot.
Granted, the character I created was created with the slow leveling in mind, so many of the skills I wanted to develop were under misc type. But still, if the person does not approach this game with leveling threadmill in mind, I doubt that they would reach far past 15 by just following the main quest. In fact, I'm sure that at least 5 of those levels would be artificially trained just so that they can deal with NPCs they encounter along the way.
I still think that people got brainwashed by level threadmill games like D2 and have a very hard time to get away from that paradigm.
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:37 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by MoonDragon
But still, if the person does not approach this game with leveling threadmill in mind, I doubt that they would reach far past 15 by just following the main quest. In fact, I'm sure that at least 5 of those levels would be artificially trained just so that they can deal with NPCs they encounter along the way.
Just for your information. My character did only one guild (Fighter's) and the main quest. I did not do a house or any other guild quests. I ran everywhere I went (no teleporting) with the occassional use of local transport. I finished the game at level 28 - almost twice your projection of 15.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 6:49 pm |
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AlexScherr
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 48
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Moondragon noted that he designed his character with most of the skills he would actually use set up as "Misc" skills, so that using them wouldn't contribute to levelling up. It sounds like Nipps' character actually had the most used skills in his Major or Minor skills, which would accelerate the levelling up. I 'd actually go farther than Nips; I think that it's possible to get higher than 28 doing only the main quest, provided you focus on major skills, and less so on minors. IF you want to.
This is one of the things I like about the game's design: the flexibility to choose your player's attributes / skills, and to play them out to produce different kinds of gameplay (hard or easy, weighted to one skill or attribute or evenly distributed). It's only real restriction is in the fact that only major/minor skills affect levelling, and not miscellaneous as well: while that slows down levelling up (and is thus a good thing), it makes it hard to play a character that you can truly develop on the fly, through action, distrributing your advancement by how you play rather than through some preset distribution. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 7:49 pm |
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Rangstrom
Head Merchant
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 58
Location: USA |
My custom mage is level 12 with no skills above 50, mainly because I'm doing it all without training or using books. Therefore I don't steal because I don't need much money. It was slow going at first but now I've got a mage that can use a bow, sneak up with a short blade or slug it out with a halbred.
Every skill is up to 20 and counting. What is important is that I can still easily lose a fight. Yesterday I had to run from a forager. I was trying out unarmored and hand to hand skills on a blighted rat when it slipped in behind and started wailing away. Oops no spell points, no potions and no room to move--at 5 hp I tucked tail and ran.(switching from h2h to a weapon in a fight is a ctd on my system)
I've got to admit that armorer and speechcraft are painful to raise without training. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 8:36 pm |
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josh
Guest
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if you're reading this eric nice job lots of viewers but get off the phone and call me at my grandmas then at home if I'm not there. |
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Tue Jun 11, 2002 9:25 pm |
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