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Kaniver
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 Dec 2003
Posts: 47
Location: Western Oregon |
| Horizons Beta testers point of view |
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As a beta tester for Horizons for several months I would like to pass along my thoughts to the RPGDOT community.
First let me start by listing some of the things I liked in the Horizons beta.
The music is first class and is the best i have ever encountered in a MMORPG or any other game for that matter.....really well done.
The interface was quite well done and very customizable....reminded me a little of AC2 but even better done in my estimation.
Unfortunately things head downhill from there. The graphics are suitable to gameplay as I don't count graphics as important as gameplay, better than Shadowbane but not by a whole lot. The crafting in the game seemed to get alot of development attention and seems fairly robust. I did spend a fair amount of time crafting with my original character a warrior with the blacksmithing skill. I found crafting to be a little on the boring side and a huge time sink but that is more my leaning towards fighting and adventuring skills. After the first character wipe I encountered I became a adventurer exclusively leaving the crafting to those more patient than I.
All my main characters were Dwarves as I lean toward bashing and bludgeoning my opponets and Dwarves seem well suited for this line of work. I took my warrior Dwarf to lvl 20. It was a fairly long haul with minimal grouping and alot of soloing. One of the more interesting aspects of character development was the ability to train in other adventurer skills and retain some of the original skills. At lvl 20 I trained cleric. Now the Dwarf cleric with 20 lvls of warrior under his belt was a blast to play. Hit fairly hard and had enough healing powers as to be almost indestructable if fighting mobs close to his abilities. It was alot more fun that the standard warrior fare I was accustomed to. When I advanced to lvl 15 cleric I had the ability to train to Paladin in the adventuring schools. Now Paladin gives you more attack abilities and retains alot of the healing skills of the Cleric. Needless to say he was also pretty damn hard to bring down. I was able to fairly easily take down mobs several lvls above myself if done carefully and thoughtfully. Supposedly the Paladin is one of the better classes and was complete enough to solo easily.
Some of the more bothersome aspects of the game were the lag issues. Anytime an event was planned, the eventing areas were so lag prone to be absolutely worthless trying to get anything accomplished. There seems to be some serious memory leaks that cause crash to desktop issues on a regular basis. Sometime I could play for several hours without a crash..but I crashed daily..everyday. Getting back on was easy but not very fast to say the least.
Many of the testers seem to think that the release build will overcome most of the difficulties.......the so called " Miracle Build " I who have lived through AC2, Shadowbane am a little more skeptical and reluctant to pay to beta test. In all reality thats exactly what will occur on launch..people will pay as they keep updating the code to fix all the problems that will occur.
My honhest estimat is that Horizons needs at least 90 more days in beta...but hey if you can get folks to pay to test....heh heh why not.
I would hope the gaming community would tire of this type of business model and demand that these games are more suitable for general play upon release. Bottom line....I will wait for something more complete down the line. |
Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:13 am |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
| Re: Horizons Beta testers point of view |
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaniver
I would hope the gaming community would tire of this type of business model and demand that these games are more suitable for general play upon release. Bottom line....I will wait for something more complete down the line.
The gaming community doesn't have to "demand" anything. As many people observed before, the best way to voice your discontent is not by flaming, or by ranting (not that you are), but by talking with your wallet. In other words, don't buy the game until it's ready.
Given the long history of bad launches this genre has had so far, the timeline for all mmorpgs to be "ready" is always 6 months after its retail launch. So, as always, some people will advise to wait until then to buy the game and try it out, unless you're willing to suck it up and go through a few months of hardship. It's always like that, and until people understand and stop pre-ordering new mmorpgs things will not change.
Read the reviews carefully, be patient, and give the established games a try before getting yourself into a prolonged beta phase for which you will have to pay. Patience has its rewards 
_________________
=Proud Father of a new gamer GIRL!=
=Member of The Nonflamers' Guild=
=Worshiper of the Written Word= |
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Thu Dec 04, 2003 3:38 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
As I said before the NDA is lifted, there are a couple of truths to be said BEFORE I give my two coppers worth - and I will try to be as objective as I can. I also spent several months in beta for this product. First for everyone to realize is that we only saw the beta and also as AE ran it only on one server which they "claim" did not see all the functionality - keep that in mind. I also do NOT believe in a miracle build - but I don't have to believe in it for it to be true - it COULD happen  . Also, we have to be careful about judging some of the content as they added much very late in the beta and also claim that much is missing in beta that will appear in final release. Further, with the lag already mentioned, there is much that we really could not properly judge simply because of the lag. Ok, now for the pros and cons as I experience them - remember this all could (and some must) change in the immediate weeks after market release as the devs "fix" things and change things a bit.
Pros:
1. Graphics are attractive enough - not fantastic but adequate.
2. Sound (particularly music) is very nicely done.
3. Several distinct PC races including Dragons to play.
4. Best crafting system I have seen (similar to UO in depth - perhaps deeper). Formulas (needed to know how to make any given item) are received through craft related quests. Items from the very start are all useful in game. This (by design it seems) is a very "craft player" driven game.
5. Crafters will be needed to not only make armor, etc., but to make and repair buildings (both player made and ingame towns structures).
6. Quest system is one of the best I have seen - a variety of quests by a variety of NPCs. Cannot say how the balance will be at market release, but as an example I managed after the last wipe to get my character to level 15 Druid, level 20 Scout and level 12 in two craft schools by doing quests alone - no fighting or crafting involved (some might think this is a con - but I will leave it to you to decide).
7. GM run events - I will assume these will continue into market release. While not perfect, these (at least weekly) events gave a break to the normal routine of things. They were infinitely better than anything EQ has ever done - I have hope for these.
8. So far they have not buckled to all the "nerfing" calls by players - right now some of the adventuring schools actually have different fighting styles than others (not perfect again, but a good try). Scout (as an archer) for instance can (and really must) fight differently (must run, stop, fire arrows) than a warrior. However, already in the beta people were saying this is UNFAIR advantage and asking archery to be nerfed. I hope the designers don't fall for this.
9. Macros allows for chaining of commands (spells, etc.) which does make some of the things one must do in any game less tedious (see con below).
10. The game's archenemy group will supposedly build towns and raid player towns - good game concept to give players something to really play against on a daily basis. However, we did not really see this work properly. If they were holding back and it works nicely at market release then wonderful - if not, then it amounts to a big hype.
Cons:
1. Graphics load very slowly, thus when one gates or comes quickly into an area with NPCS and/or PCs (town for instance) more often than not one will see "grey" shapes with no textures or colors for some period of time until things settle down.
2. If one is running, often one can be surprised by mobs (and PCs) that suddenly "pop" into place around you simply because the system does not display them fast enough to keep up with your movement.
3. In the beta, the races are all mixed together in starter towns so one of the complaints was that the supposedly distinct races really have no identity of their own. No language differences - just different looking with very minor racial differences at best (other than looks).
4. Macros allow for much abusing in the game - as they always do. Unless they do something, this will be a serious problem later on. For instance, it was EASY to make a macro that allowed me to run my Scout while I was asleep gaining 3 levels.
5. No dungeons at all - no plans for any.
6. Cannot swim at all - sink and die. No boats at all. Water area is useless.
7. Severe lag in many, many situations. This is a game killer it was so bad.
8. Severe FPS issues for many, many people (me included). I have a high end machine (2.4ghz P4, 1gig RAM, Radeon 9500 Pro) and it did not take much in the game to pull my FPS down to 5 or less. I admit that some might consider 15fps (or even 10) playable - so some of this is in the eye of the beholder - I do not consider 15 fps on a regular basis playable and 5 is totally unplayable for me. You decide.
9. NPCs (vendors, trainers, etc.) sometimes would simply not be visable in game. This continued until the end of beta (it got better, but the problem never went away). I consider this unacceptable performance - particularly in a game where gameplay depends on the NPCs so much as this one (quests, etc.).
10. As already mentioned, memory leaks continued to be a REAL problem up to the end of beta.
11. If you (like me) like everything in the game to make sense and be consistant (at least to a large degree) with reality - then you will have conceptual problems with this game. For instance, archers in game do NOT use arrows at all - your bow just always has all the arrows you need. Also, on the crafting side, the crafter who makes bows is called a Fletcher (sorry, but Fletchers only make arrows, bowyers make bows). This may seem a trivial matter, but this sort of error (for me) tends to break down my immersion into the game. This is JUST one example - many, many abound throughout the game.
12. NO LOOT of any significance to an adventuring player (and it looks like they want it that way). Creatures drop odds and ends of useless (or nearly useless) items such as logs, bricks, etc. - some of which MIGHT be useful for a crafter (except they can in general get most of these items more efficiently in other ways). I never found any items that was useful to an adventuring character (this was a major complaint of everybody in beta except the crafters). No loot to motivate the adventurer at all.
13. World seemed very dead - NPCs do NOTHING except stand there to wait for you to click on them to buy or sell or train with them.
14. No taverns, little or no social animations for roleplay, cannot sit on chairs, lie on beds, drink a mug of ale - nothing for roleplay support.
15. Mobs walk through static objects - trees, mountainsides, etc. - no rationale that I could find at all here. As far as I could determine this is by design - no plan to change this (thus it is not a bug to be fixed).
Overall, while I see many "possible" things to like, the game is fairly unplayable by my standards at this point - perhaps a few weeks (or months) from now, I will give it another chance. If you just LOVE crafting - then go for this game as I am certain (forgetting lag, fps, etc. issues) you will enjoy this game. For the adventurer/fighter person - there is LITTLE here for you. No dungeons to explore, little mystery to uncover, no cool loot to look forward to finding (I am NOT an advocate of EQ style uber loot - but I DO like some loot to help motivate me).
If you have a specific gameplay question, please feel free to post and I will try to answer as objectively as I can.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Thu Dec 04, 2003 4:58 pm |
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Zamolxis
Village Dweller
Joined: 22 Aug 2002
Posts: 13
Location: Arkansas |
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
Overall, while I see many "possible" things to like, the game is fairly unplayable by my standards at this point - perhaps a few weeks (or months) from now, I will give it another chance. If you just LOVE crafting - then go for this game as I am certain (forgetting lag, fps, etc. issues) you will enjoy this game. For the adventurer/fighter person - there is LITTLE here for you. No dungeons to explore, little mystery to uncover, no cool loot to look forward to finding (I am NOT an advocate of EQ style uber loot - but I DO like some loot to help motivate me).
You are perfectly right, I've been in beta also for about a month and with great sadness I have to say that the game is not yet finished  I was really looking forward to it but I guess I'll need to wait a few more months.
As Ekim says, we need to vote with our wallets, that's what counts. So I won't buy this game until I decide it will be fun for me. |
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Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:12 pm |
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Kaniver
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 Dec 2003
Posts: 47
Location: Western Oregon |
No dungeons...............this is a terrible oversite. Might have somthing to do with no collision detection for mobs.they walk through anything and everything.
No loot to speak of for the adventuring soul..........more attention was given to the crafting side of the game at the exspense of adventurer's.
No player distribution of skill points....as you lvl yopu gain access to better equipment and spells but you have no input to differentiate you Paladin from every other Paladin ect,ect.
Unstable client.............this one is hard to overcome as it distracts from the better features found in the game and significantly increases the frustration factor.
Untested content due to abrievieated beta. None know what testing accomplished on the internal servers. This is where the hope for the miracle build lies........that the internal servers have overcome most of the deficiencies found in the beta. I wouldn't want to bet the price of admission on that one. |
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Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:24 pm |
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Silverado
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 37
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quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
Pros:
I must quickly add that it seems to me that your pro list seems pretty good for me -- the foundation seems to be to be there and the kind of game it is is really there and what needs to be fixed in your Con is not the heart of the game but some of the guts! I mean, its still Horizons - probably closer to the original imgaginings than many might have believed (or trusted) |
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Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:03 pm |
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Joey Nipps
Orcan High Command
Joined: 03 Jan 2002
Posts: 849
Location: Outer Space |
quote:
Originally posted by Silverado
I must quickly add that it seems to me that your pro list seems pretty good for me -- the foundation seems to be to be there and the kind of game it is is really there and what needs to be fixed in your Con is not the heart of the game but some of the guts! I mean, its still Horizons - probably closer to the original imgaginings than many might have believed (or trusted)
Yes, as I have tried to say elsewhere, this game has or seems to have many of the elements to make it a good game. And to be sure, the vast majority of the beta testers (including myself) WANT it to make it - but NOT just because people play it in hopes. It has the foundation to be very good - it is just that so far the devs are not implementing very well. IF they can get various technical aspects fixed then they have a chance.
_________________
When everything else in life seems to fail you - buy a vowel. |
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Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:11 pm |
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hollaholla
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 161
Location: at my computer desk!~ |
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
quote:
Originally posted by Silverado
I must quickly add that it seems to me that your pro list seems pretty good for me -- the foundation seems to be to be there and the kind of game it is is really there and what needs to be fixed in your Con is not the heart of the game but some of the guts! I mean, its still Horizons - probably closer to the original imgaginings than many might have believed (or trusted)
Yes, as I have tried to say elsewhere, this game has or seems to have many of the elements to make it a good game. And to be sure, the vast majority of the beta testers (including myself) WANT it to make it - but NOT just because people play it in hopes. It has the foundation to be very good - it is just that so far the devs are not implementing very well. IF they can get various technical aspects fixed then they have a chance.
I Too was a beta tester...and acutally posted a few screenshot links in another thread...can do more if that helps people at all get a feel for what certain elements in the game are like, such as the crafting and building interfaces and combat moves.
I have to agree with Joey that this game has GREAT potential, and most of the people that I played with and grouped with in game had a blast doing so and have every intention of purchasing it. In fact...we all cannot wait to meet up again in game as beta sadly ends....but thats another thought.
I spend most of my time as a warrior/blacksmith/outfitter female human (with black hair and nice looking bod I might add!!!), I did not have a tremendous amount if time to be able to explore all the classes-so i decided to just focus on a few. I concentrated on getting my skills in blacksmithing/outfitter to be able to get up and going in making tools/armor/weapson..as well as being able to get set up in the economy by making much armor for others to use...so that I could get money. In fact that was one of my more favorite parts of the game, making items, selling them, then getting money once bought from consignement and purchasing better techniques and tools that allowed for me to become stronger at what I did.
Some people have mentioned multiple CTD problems..but to be honest, that never really happenned to me but twice..and that was in some of the early versions from the summertime. Perhaps its my computer.
To graphics loading, I have the similar response..I never had grey graphics or white graphics (although a friend of mine did...must be computers again..i don't know though cause I am not that versed in that area).
To the lag issue...it was there. In places worse then others..but never to me unplayable, and something that from reading recent interviews by the developement, am confident that it will be overcome.
All in all- I am buying this game and playing it when it comes out. I cannot wait.
Let me know if you have any questions or if you want more screenshots....
_________________
**I just chose a new avatar because I just saw the characters for the new Final Fantasy and got ....excited!!! |
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Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:31 pm |
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hollaholla
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 161
Location: at my computer desk!~ |
quote:
Originally posted by Zamolxis
quote:
Originally posted by Joey Nipps
Overall, while I see many "possible" things to like, the game is fairly unplayable by my standards at this point - perhaps a few weeks (or months) from now, I will give it another chance. If you just LOVE crafting - then go for this game as I am certain (forgetting lag, fps, etc. issues) you will enjoy this game. For the adventurer/fighter person - there is LITTLE here for you. No dungeons to explore, little mystery to uncover, no cool loot to look forward to finding (I am NOT an advocate of EQ style uber loot - but I DO like some loot to help motivate me).
You are perfectly right, I've been in beta also for about a month and with great sadness I have to say that the game is not yet finished I was really looking forward to it but I guess I'll need to wait a few more months.
As Ekim says, we need to vote with our wallets, that's what counts. So I won't buy this game until I decide it will be fun for me.
I wanted to add on here Zam..that i have seen what this team is capable of from being in beta since its early stages and the changes, developements, etc. have left me with a huge amount of trust that the release build will be as playable as any other competant MMO at release.
_________________
**I just chose a new avatar because I just saw the characters for the new Final Fantasy and got ....excited!!! |
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Fri Dec 05, 2003 5:33 pm |
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Silverado
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 12 Nov 2003
Posts: 37
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quote:
Originally posted by hollaholla
All in all- I am buying this game and playing it when it comes out. I cannot wait.
Yeah, me too! I wonder if I can sneak into the European server because I am not European of course but they launched today and I want to play. The great thing about having a very powerful world of NPCs and so forth is all they have to do is people it -- I am pretty sure its not going to be anything but very different and a lot of fun; besides, its DONE -- this game has been going on for over 4 years and I heard it was close to being scrapped several times -- and its not! And its ALIVE!
And I did grab the music and the music sounds great! |
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Fri Dec 05, 2003 6:39 pm |
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Kaniver
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 Dec 2003
Posts: 47
Location: Western Oregon |
The statement that the heart is there in Horizons is somthing I wish to respectfully disagree with. Never did the immersiveness of the game impress me that much. To support a product for 6 months or more in hopes that the develpment will eventually turn it into a game with " heart " is somthing I just won't do.
I started playing AC1 on it's first day of retail...........I do not remember any major issues on launch, It was well done and polished..........sure it changed enormously over time as monthly updates were implemented but the truth of the matter is it was ready for prime time at release. This shows that a MMORPG can be released in a quite stable and immersive state.
Horizons is puported to be a next generation MMORPG.........I did feel this was the case.
Timing has alot to do with online games. Horizons is being released when alot of avid MMORPG'ers are looking for somthing new to play. MMORPG's take a long time commitment to realize the games real potential. I played AC1 for 4 yrs off and on ( mostly on )
That being said why in the world would i want to invest 6 months or more in a game I preceive to be inferior to other games coming down the shute, namely;
Ultima X: Online
Dark & Light
Dragon Empires
World of Warcraft
and yes even Everquest 2
I believe each of these will push the envelope further than Horizon's could possibly hope for. Rather than get into somthing that I know won't hold my interest, I will wait for somthing that will. I will spend my time trying to get into one of these beta launches.
I have considerable experience in online gaming having played;
Yeserbius
Tradewars
Gemstone 3
Dragonrealms
AC1
AC2
DAOC
Shadowbane
Earth & Beyond beta
Horizons beta.
My only reason for starting this post was to give my personal views and to give a heads up to those that wasted time and money on such travesties as AC2 and Shadowbane............Horizons could well be a similiar experience for you.
As the posts are rolling in on Horizons Vault you can get a real good idea on what the consensus is on there boards. There is a very vocal contingent that support and enjoy the game. If your unsure do your research and and make as an informed decision as you can.
Lastly I am very appreciative of the opportunity to beta test Horizons and regardless of my final impressions, It was a fun experience. |
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Sat Dec 06, 2003 12:55 am |
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Fasttrak
Head Merchant
Joined: 06 Apr 2002
Posts: 56
Location: USA |
quote:
Originally posted by Kaniver
That being said why in the world would i want to invest 6 months or more in a game I preceive to be inferior to other games coming down the shute, namely;
Ultima X: Online
Dark & Light
Dragon Empires
World of Warcraft
and yes even Everquest 2
Not sure that you can tell how far the envelope will be pushed with games that have very little information out on the net that is concrete compared to a game that has quite a bit here and now. Horizons will definitely not be for everyone by the nature of its design; no uber drops, no PVP and an economy driven by the players themselves. Even the PVE is a bit different then anything else except the poorly implemented AC2 attempts at an incursion force against community. With the tidbits that were fed to us during beta is damn hard to form a total oppinion of what retail is going to be like, too many variables on how well the community and the computer driven hordes will interact to create an immersive and enjoyable game. I for one think that the framework was there to make for a damn good game and one that keeps you logging on to see how your community faired while you slept. They only had very small areas populated with retail content, Crankenspanks is one that if done as a growing invading force could make for some very entertaining gaming on a dailey basis. There is no doubt I am reading between the lines and trying to see what Artifact has in mind with retail content but I believe I have a good feeling for how it could come off and can hardly wait. |
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Sat Dec 06, 2003 2:13 am |
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hollaholla
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 19 Aug 2003
Posts: 161
Location: at my computer desk!~ |
quote:
Originally posted by Kaniver
The statement that the heart is there in Horizons is somthing I wish to respectfully disagree with. Never did the immersiveness of the game impress me that much.
Here is something though that I respectuflly disagree with...I thought the heart was there.
Besides just playing the game..how many of the Dev chats and interviews and other things did you read. Did you ever go into the beta chat client at Tazoon and talk with David Bowman and the other developers..or ever come across and AE Dev or DB himself in beta??? there is the HEART in addition to the game...in there I see where the game comes from and where it is going because it has people the beleive in it..and if you have read any of this stuff..or talked with them, or come across them in game, I would think that you would share that opinion as well.
_________________
**I just chose a new avatar because I just saw the characters for the new Final Fantasy and got ....excited!!! |
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Mon Dec 08, 2003 6:26 pm |
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Farseer
City Guard
Joined: 30 Apr 2002
Posts: 131
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Tested since early August, and gave lots of feedback and bug reports. The last month or two of beta the DEVS seemed to vanish from the beta boards and to a large extent ignored the testers concerns. I for one will not buy until they decide to finish the game, ie dungeon,swimming, workable classes, char models that arent doggy-bowwow, much more stable platform,Dryads! Maybe 6 months to a year from now it will be ready, but then how many other games will be out??
As for the build David Bowman promised for retail, it looks to have been a pipe dream( DB, smokin some wild **** in that pipe!). |
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Mon Dec 08, 2003 10:45 pm |
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