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Josh E. Sawyer visited the boards again with a discussion about a possible paladin/rogue. Which turned out to be a length discussion:
A small story to show that strange combinations of classes can be possible
Dadaen Graves was one of the most cold-blooded muggers and burglars in Westgate. If anyone ever got in his way, he'd brain them on the spot. He'd beat up kids, throw old ladies down stairs, and kick vagrants for their daily take. One night, while he was drunk, a group of angered citizens finally struck back. They surrounded Dadaen and beat him with clubs. In his intoxicated state, he couldn't defend himself. The bloodied thug stumbled through the streets, pounding on doors in the night. Eventually, one opened. A man emerged, and pushed back the throngs. Dadaen, eyes filled with blood, stumbled inside. He could hear the man shouting out and being beaten as he fell into unconsciousness.
Dadaen woke up in a small, simple stone room. Sitting by his side was a man in gray robes -- gray stained with red and black. The face starting back at him was aged and wrinkled, but the welts and cuts made it hard to tell how aged. Despite his injuries, the man smiled.
"Well met, Dadaen. I am Bastine, Bastine of Ilmater."
Over the course of the next few months, Dadaen remained inside the church. People on the streets were still out for blood, and Dadaen's old "friends" in the gang had taken over his territory. There was nothing left for him in his old life. As he recovered, he observed the priests of Ilmater in their daily activities. When he became well, he decided to stay at the church. After long reflection, Dadaen decided that he was not cut out for the priesthood. Despite this, he felt a calling inside himself, a compulsion to serve Ilmater and all the suffering people of the world. Conversing with Bastine, Dadaen realized that he was destined to serve the church as a paladin, a holy warrior.
Dadaen continued to use his abilities of stealth and information gathering to learn about the activities of Westgate's criminals. His skill at intimidation was directed towards scaring off the thugs that preyed on the weak, just as he once had. However, Dadaen was a lawful man. He worked with the ruling powers of Westgate, despite the great difficulties of acting in accordance with such a corrupt government.
***
Hey, it's no more implausible than waking up and knowing how to cast a first level wizard spell.
But some people thought it was a bit too wild, so he came up with this
Okay, okay, since that last story was so much of a stretch, let me present this:
Tyrannar the Destructor fell asleep with thoughts of dominating Aglarond in his mind. How the Simbul's agents would burn on the fields of battle. Feul and his rivals would be mocked in the great council! Oh, the joy, that Tyrannar dreamt of.
Morning broke, and as the first rays of sun were cast upon Tyrannar's cheek, the mage realized that something inside him had changed.
"Goblins. I hate goblins! Why, were one here right now, I'd throw a dagger -- NO! I'd shoot a bow at him! I've never shot a bow in my life, but I've a feeling that I'd shoot it well at that goblin. In fact, I'd wager I'd shoot it at him more accurately than, say, a human or an orc."
As Tyrannar reached over to grab his robe, he realized that his left arm felt more limber than it had ever felt before.
"Zounds! How liberated you feel, once withered appendage! Normally, you hang limp at my side, but from this day forward, there shall a dagger pivot and weave! Where is my faithful cat familiar?"
Looking about the room, Tyrannar realized he could detect slight traces of the cat's passing. Following small tufts of hair and small muddy footprints, he found his cat, Hella, in the garden.
"Ha, ha, ha! What yesterday were simple marks in the mud, unintelligible to mine eye, now chart the progress of living creatures across the ground! Surely the fools at the council will tremble at the approach of Tyrannar, level 10 wizard, level 1 ranger!"
Of course this brought forward something else
Q: Paladins dont sneak . Climibing in heavy armour dosnt make sense. Same goes for swimming in it.
A: Why do I have to wear heavy armor? Where, in the PHB, does it say that paladins have to wear heavy armor? Where does it say that can't sneak around? When they approach wrong-doers, do they have to carry a bullhorn and shout out their approach?
"PALADIN COMING THROUGH! GET YOUR SWORDS AND ARMOR, READY, EVIL DOERS. IF YOU HAVE PEASANTS HELD HOSTAGE, PLEASE DON'T KILL THEM, AS YOU MIGHT BE LIKELY TO DO IF YOU KNEW I WAS COMING."
And about the code of conduct of a paladin
If my paladin were sitting in a park and two criminals sat down on a bench behind him, discussing another individuals' plans to kill a local merchant, would it break the paladin's code unless he stood up and shouted, "EXCUSE ME, LAWBREAKERS, I AM A PALADIN"? Do you honestly believe that?
Someone stated a paladin does not use stealth
A concealed paladin is not concealing his faith; he's concealing his presence.
Unless you, as a DM, demand that all paladins march around wearing sandwich boards reading "LAWFUL GOOD PALADIN" and shouting from a bullhorn, I can't imagine how you expect paladins to behave.
A paladin is under no obligation to reveal his presence to any one. Tresspassing is a crime. Breaking and entering is a crime. Stealing is a crime. Being quiet and sneaky is certainly not a crime.
If a paladin decided to sneak up to a window to clearly hear what people inside were saying, that would break his code of conduct? You really believe that? So, if two guys were in a tavern, discussing the location of the kidnapped children, your paladin could not move next to the window to clearly overhear what they were saying? What should he do? Loudly clear his throat as he approaches the window? Should he walk inside and say, "Before you discuss your plans any further, you should know that I am a paladin."?
Which element of the paladin's code forbids the concealment of information? In fact, no element forbids that. Read through the whole paladin's handbook and see if anything inside prevents the use of stealth. If you'd like, the section on Virtues ranges from page 32-37.
And then this
Davaen the paladin angrily paced across the room. Being able to take the anger no longer, he let out a shout. A nearby priest hustled down the hall.
"My brother, what is the matter?!"
"My chest containing my arms and armor! It is locked and I lost the key!" the paladin exclaimed.
"Excuse me, brother Davaen, but were you not once a burglar before joining our brotherhood? Why not pick the lock?"
Leaping across the room, Davaen grabbed the priest by the robes, "FOR THE LOVE OF ILMATER, MAN, DON'T YOU KNOW THAT PICKING LOCKS IS MORALLY REPREHENSIBLE?!"
The priest blinked at Davaen. "But... brother, the goods belong to you."
"DON'T TRY TO TRICK ME WITH YOUR DEMONIC SUBTERFUGE, FALSE ONE!" Davaen then beat the priest to death with his bare hands for daring to blaspheme in such a manner.
And this
No, it's not misleading anyone. The paladin isn't saying he's a priest of Malar, or a two-headed rakshasa, he's simply not revealing himself.
***
Sir Blockhead and Josiah the Artificer stood before the broad oak door in the Ruins of Kal-Mathuum.
"Hold on, Sir Blockhead. Those bandits are holding children hostage in there. Let me pick this lock, and..."
"'PICK THIS LOCK'?! What kind of devil-idolizing servant of darkness do you take me for?!"
"SHHHH! Sir Blockhead, be quiet, or the bandits will hear us."
Sir Blockhead snorted and hefted his two-handed sword. "Why don't we creep in, poison one half, and slit the throats of the others?! You can't trick me with your vile... 'reasons.'"
Josiah sighed. "Blockhead..."
"SIR Blockhead."
"Sir Blockhead, you can face them in honorable combat once we're through this door and I have escorted the children to safety..."
"And HOW will you do that? I suppose you're going to PICK THE LOCKS on their cages, too. Once you start picking locks, convincing yourself that it's for good, where does it all end? Why, I suspect you'll be arrested for stealing the crown jewels, smoking Black Lotus and ravishing the king's daughter in a fortnight."
"Sir Blockhead, just let me pick the lock... "
"BREAKING AND ENTERING IS ILLEGAL!"
"Dammit, this is the king's ancestral estate! He TOLD us to come here!"
"DO NOT BLASPHEME! OUT OF MY WAY, THIEF!"
With a shove, Sir Blockhead bumped Josiah out of the way.
"Thief? I'm a locksmith! I make all of the locks for the royal family!"
"WHATEVER! Your silly name games can't fool me."
Sir Blockhead's two-handed sword smashed into the door, barely leaving a dent.
"How is this any different, Sir Blockhead?"
"I'VE HEARD ENOUGH OUT OF YOU!"
Sir Blockhead's sword hammered against the door dozens of times. Inside, the pair could hear the screaming of children.
"Blockhead!"
The paladin's sword arm let go and smashed the artificer in the face. His sword came down hard upon the lock dozens of times, shattering it into pieces. Sir Blockhead kicked the door, and it splintered apart.
"HERE I COME, VILE, BLOOD-SUCKING BANDITS!"
Josiah leaned into the doorway and FLAMFLAMFLAMFLAMed his ear. He could hear the bandits discussing their plans. "Prepare the boiling oil." one whispered. The artificer held his hand to his bleeding nose and rushed up behind the paladin.
"Sir Blockhead, I overheard the bandits, they're preparing to dump boiling oil on us!"
The paladin looked at Josiah in disgust.
"LO, THERE, BANDITS! I APPROACH FROM THE SOUTH, MIDDLE HALLWAY. MY IMMORAL COMPANION HAS OVERHEARD YOUR PLANS FOR BOILING OIL. PLEASE DISCUSS YOUR TACTICS IN A MORE SUBDUED TONE, LEST MY BABY-DEVOURING ASSOCIATE PILFER THROUGH YOUR MINDS!"
"Baby devouring?!"
The paladin's fist smashed Josiah in the face again. Blockhead approached the room. As he stepped through the doorway, a huge cauldron of boiling oil fell on his head, searing his flesh. The paladin grimaced. Josiah finally caught up with him. The FLAMFLAMFLAMFLAMing of crossbows could be heard all around. Josiah looked left, towards the pen.
"Oh my god! They've killed the children! Now we're standing in a room full of bandits with crossbows pointing at us."
The paladin swiveled his smoking torso towards the artificer and raised his visor, revealing burned flesh beneath.
"But..." he rasped, "at least we did it without... picking locks!"
A lockpicking paladin?
You're saying that the mechanic is morally wrong when, in reality, it was the action that was morally wrong. There's nothing wrong with picking locks. Absolutely nothing wrong with it. Breaking into peoples' houses against their will, that's wrong. Breaking open a stranger's strongbox to steal their goods, that's wrong. How is picking the lock on your own chest morally wrong?
Let's take another example. An evil fighter slaughters merchants for half of his life in the pursuit of money and power. After a profound religious experience, he becomes a paladin. Should he no longer use a sword? |
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Icewind Dale II Forum, A paladin/rogue
