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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| RPGDot Feature: The Action RPG Revolution |
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In the search for broader audiences, game producers have increasingly abandoned "traditional" CRPGs in favour of action RPGs. Has it worked and where does that leave the genre? We take a look at this trend; here's a snip:<blockquote><em>As a self-confessed CRPG junky, I used to eagerly anticipate nearly every major release. Sure, many of them were imperfect but the genre rarely provided enough games to slake my thirst. Fast forward to the present when an email arrives from a successful developer hinting at a new action RPG, which may well be The Next Best Thing™. My first reaction: not another one.</em></blockquote>Head <a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=1007" target="_blank">here</a> to read the entire article. |
Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:50 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
Brian - Great Article!
Based on what you wrote, I see a lot of myself in you... particularly the insatiable need for deep, engrossing CRPGs.
Been playing CRPGs since Alkebeth on my Apple II and Wizardry on my IBM PC 8088.
I'm less pessimistic than you though. It seems the deep CRPGs have a 5 year on/off cycle.
I'm sure you remember the CRPG drought of the mid-90s which lasted about 5 years followed up by about 5 years of CRPG heaven, kicked off by none other than the Baldur's Gate series.
My impression is that once the market is largely devoid of deeper CRPGs, a developer will recognize the hole, put out a great game, and revitalize the situation... probably for about 5 years... we'll see...
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:53 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
quote:
Originally posted by TheMadGamer
I'm sure you remember the CRPG drought of the mid-90s which lasted about 5 years followed up by about 5 years of CRPG heaven, kicked off by none other than the Baldur's Gate series.
Hmm... I know this post is probably going to score a constructiveness rating of 0/10 but it must be said...
...if the BG series is CRPG heaven, I sure enough don't wanna know what CRPG hell is like  . |
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Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:14 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
...if the BG series is CRPG heaven, I sure enough don't wanna know what CRPG hell is like .
Read a little more carefully... I never wrote that the, 'BG series is CRPG heaven.' What I wrote was there was a period of about 5 years of CRPG heaven, kicked off with BG.
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:25 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
I know but I had to generously ignore that or else I would have had to skip the chance of another painful little kick at the BG series... and that would have been a pity, wouldn't it?
OK... wait... *switches troll mode off* ... I agree with you actually and the BG spin-offs could all have been great games w/o the crappy Infinity engine. That's what makes me so mad about it. I guess the games were OK per se and I would have loved to enjoy them (especially PS:T and IwD) but the Infinity engine ruined all the fun for me /sigh  . |
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Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:42 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
I know but I had to generously ignore that or else I would have had to skip the chance of another painful little kick at the BG series... and that would have been a pity, wouldn't it?
LOL.
quote:
Originally posted by Moriendor
OK... wait... *switches troll mode off* ... I agree with you actually and the BG spin-offs could all have been great games w/o the crappy Infinity engine. That's what makes me so mad about it. I guess the games were OK per se and I would have loved to enjoy them (especially PS:T and IwD) but the Infinity engine ruined all the fun for me /sigh .
Out of curiosity, what specifically bothered you about the infinity engine?
I played both BG1 and BG2 but never finished either of them. Almost finished BG1 but my interest fizzled before I could beat it. My biggest beef with the BG games is the strict D&D ruleset. When I play a CRPG I HAVE to play a magic user and I've always hated, and we're talking HATE here, the D&D rules governing magic users, specifically, having to remember spells in advance... blah... I've always found that so lame but I know in the D&D world I'm in the minority on that...
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:47 pm |
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Moriendor
Black Ring Leader
Joined: 19 Jul 2001
Posts: 1306
Location: Germany |
Hehe, it's been almost three years but I found it  . Here's a forum thread where the Infinity engine was discussed: Infinity Engine .
And I agree with you on the strict implementation of the D&D ruleset. The magic system didn't disturb me that much but I think they should have done away with the combat rolls. It's too random.
As a computer gamer, I'm used to being in control of what's happening and don't want to rely on a lucky roll of the dice. It's ridiculous when your entire party gets wiped out on the 1st try, you reload, try to beat the same enemy again by pretty much using the same tactics and then beat him with hardly anyone in your party taking a scratch. They should have heavily modified the rules to make strategy, choice of equipment, and character skills matter more than a lucky roll of the dice. |
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Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:11 pm |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
We're pretty much making the same complaint but with different aspects. For me, the idea of needing to have memorized the 'correct' spells in advance is dumb because it implies a certain amount of trial and error when playing the game. Anyway, I already know I'm in the minority on that so enough said... I'll take a look at your link thanks!
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:24 pm |
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Gorath
Mostly Harmless
Joined: 03 Sep 2001
Posts: 6327
Location: NRW, Germany |
That old thread reminds me of something. Does anybody know what happened to Stiletto? He was pretty active in the good old days and suddenly he disappeared.
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Webmaster GothicDot |
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Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:04 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
The Infinity Engine is not something magical, that is for sure, but it was pretty impressive in late 90's. AI? how many RPGs during that time, and even today, how have an impressive AI? Combat AI is always less impressive compare to FPS. Pathfinding it's a problem alright, but also usually a problem in other non-RPGs, such as in RTS games during the time. And a more advanced graphics like fully 3D, and zoom-able camera only becoming reality in recent years, with titles like Dungeon Siege.
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Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:45 am |
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MadGamer. I would say BG kicked off the action RPG, FO revived the RPG genre. FO is a real crpg where as BG is an action hybrid.
The mid and late 90's also have put out realms of arkania. The best rpg series ever made.
If you like crap fake rpgs, this is the time to live. Bards Tale, Dragon Lords, Sudiki, Fable, Jade Empire, goes on and on.
None of these games are rpgs. But people don't like rpgs, they like fake rpg action games. So all the "rpg" fans have plenty of games coming out. |
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Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:35 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
Remind me not to mention BG in passing in my next article. *g*
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
If you like crap fake rpgs, this is the time to live. Bards Tale, Dragon Lords, Sudiki, Fable, Jade Empire, goes on and on.
None of these games are rpgs. But people don't like rpgs, they like fake rpg action games. So all the "rpg" fans have plenty of games coming out.
This is exactly the point I was addressing except I disagree on a fundamental issue: where is the evidence that "people don't like rpgs"? Developers and publishers are pushing out "fake" action RPGs but where is the evidence that this is what RPG fans prefer?
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Editor @ RPGDot |
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Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:22 am |
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Nexus'
Guest
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Good article, Dhruin.
However, I think the CRPG market faces a different crisis direr than action RPGs. The crisis CRPGs face is a bankruptcy of stories, ideas, and imagination. When you said, “not another one,” that’s my response when I hear another game that boasts “A trepid band of heroes opposes a dark and nameless evil which threatens to overtake the world!” While it was novel in Tolkien’s time, it is one that has fueled countless movies, fantasy books, and RPGs over the years. Game makers are killing the genre by giving us too much of a good thing. I see the same plot in almost every fantasy game, except often poor and threadbare. What happened to games with stories like rich tapestries, whose narratives, characters, and worlds engrossed us and kindled our imaginations? For years we have lived on rehashed Tolkien and D&D, worlds cast in the mold of Middle Earth, and elves, dwarves, and other creatures no longer wondrous. I don’t mean this as a rant or argument against fantasy, or perhaps one that might be in support of science fiction. What I would like to see is innovation, like BG, Fallout, Wizadry, and others used to do so well. I see this problem in mainstream RPGs and independent RPGs, which seem willing to serve but not willing to dream. |
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Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:04 am |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
I would say BG kicked off the action RPG, FO revived the RPG genre. FO is a real crpg where as BG is an action hybrid. The mid and late 90's also have put out realms of arkania. The best rpg series ever made.
No arguments there.
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
Remind me not to mention BG in passing in my next article. *g*
I'm actually quite surprised at the negativity toward this series in this thread considering the series' huge success. My issues with the infinity engine were the D & D ruleset which I've never really taken to. But other than that, I still managed to enjoy the games for what they had to offer.
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
where is the evidence that "people don't like rpgs"? Developers and publishers are pushing out "fake" action RPGs but where is the evidence that this is what RPG fans prefer?
The very existence of RPG sites such as RPGDot is evidence that there is a demographic interested in deep, rich RPGs. But the size of this demographic is quite small relative to the demographic that prefers shallower RPGs, hence the swarming of 'action' RPGS (aka shallow RPGs).
The good news is that there is a host of small developers, primarily in European countries, who seem focused on creating deep RPGs. A small developer working on an RPG is your best bet at getting a deep RPG as the demographic of deep RPG enthusiasts can make quite a nice living for a small developer. It's the 'big business' moguls who look at the deep RPG demographic and see it as small potatos.
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:37 pm |
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Wolfgarou
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 29 May 2003
Posts: 163
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quote:
I would say BG kicked off the action RPG, FO revived the RPG genre. FO is a real crpg where as BG is an action hybrid. The mid and late 90's also have put out realms of arkania. The best rpg series ever made.
Don't flame me! IMHO, BG revived the RPG genre, Diablo kick started the action RPG genre. BG proved that RPGs are still commercially viable, not Fallout. Diablo, well, was just plain mindless fun (and generated lots of cash).
How to revive the RPG genre, again? Make a DRAGONLANCE RPG! 4th Age of course! Who wouldn't want to bump into Raistlin? Or have a drink in Inn of the Last Home? Or look for Fizban's hat??? Now THAT's what I call an RPG
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The world is small, nasty and complicated, and everybody dies alone... - Sam Fisher |
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Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:41 pm |
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