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RPGDot Feature: RPGDot 2003 Awards: Best RPG
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
On the Razorblade of Life




Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia
   

I'm in total agreement with the top 2 placegetters. They easily stood out from the pack.
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Post Tue Jan 20, 2004 3:32 am
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California
   

quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
...Gothic takes a lot more to get into in terms of getting used to the interface and finding your place in a nonlinear world. However, once you get passed these points (took me maybe an hour) the game is much more rewarding than the large majority of "American" rpgs.


Agreed

quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
However, I think this comment does exhibit the all-too familiar trend in American gaming in which only games which do not require serious involvement or even slight learning curve are rewarded with sales. This is why we are doomed to 8 million BG: DA clones as they are easy to get into and satisfy our short attention spans. When Fallout becomes Fallout:BOS for the console because of marketability there is something seriously wrong with us.


This has always been the case with any mainstream media. Back in the 70s and 80s, when computer gaming was NOT mainstream, there were a lot of games that required 'involvement' and 'learning curves.' But as computer gaming has transitioned to mainstream entertainment, there is now a lot of, 'gaming garbage' as I call it.

But there are still those of us (and yes, many of 'us' live in America) who represent that niche demographic of gamers who love to be 'involved' and even 'confused' (at first) by the complexity and intense detail of a game. And as long as we exist, developers such as Piranha Bytes can make a great living as a small developer selling to our niche while the 'EAs' of the world crank out more 'stuff' for the mainstream demographic.

quote:
Originally posted by Anonymous
BTW I am not one of those wacky, inexplicable, "Europeans" with which that poster seems to have so much trouble.


And I'm one of those Americans who really appreciates a lot of the CRPG titles coming out of Europe!
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Post Tue Jan 20, 2004 5:06 pm
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roqua1
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I never knew there was a large difference between "American" and "European" RPGs. Japan's RPG's or "Eastern" RPGs are a lot different than the traditional "Western" RPGs I think. Both Europe and America has some good games and some crap, but one man's crap is another man's gold.

I think "Legends of Arkania" is some of the greatest RPG's ever and they are German I think. Darklands I think might be German but I really don't know, but that is a great game. Arx Fatalis was linear and had no dialogue and was Italian but a fun game and no learning curve or non-linearity. Garusal and Divinity are Diablo clones. Gothic has twitch-based combat (and I still can't understand how it could possibly be an RPG even though I know you all do). Those are all European.

ToEE got consistantly bad reviews (besides from this site) and always got noted for having a "steep learning curve" and being "to complicated for the casual gamer". I thought if anything the game was to simple and I believe the d20 system is way to simple and I do not like it (the d20 system, not ToEE). And ToEE was made in America, and I'm an American.

My belief is that games from large developers are crap, and the only good RPG's will come from small developers that are not influenced by gaming corporations (like Interplay). The Fall is really the only RPG I am looking forward to at the moment. But a small group of US gamers that love games and are not signed by a coorporation might come out with the next game I am looking forward to. Who knows. I know gaming corporations stink in my opinion. Just like twitch-based combat RPGs and RT combat RPGs, but that is my opinion only.

I thought KoToR was fun once through but it was definitly geared towards the moron casual gamers I think. I'm not a huge Star Wars fan but if I was the story of the game would of made me angry especially if that will become part of the Star Wars actual history. But that is just my opinion.

But maybe you guys are right with the Europe vs. US theory. Maybe I like complicated games because my mother is from Sicily and my father is from Africa (he is a Frenchman who thinks he is Italian because he was brought up in a Sicilian part of Tunisia). But I am not a big Gothic fan because of the combat and my play style. I have to explore every area i possibly can before advancing the plot, I have to, maybe I am obsesive compulsive but that is how I have to play. If you played Gothic then you know how this would not lead to a good game experience, especially if you suck at twitch-combat. And this is also the reason I liked KoTor and Arx Fatalis once though. They both had small maps that where easy to explore every nook and cranny. And you do not feel dishartened like you do while playing BG2 and have 10 huge maps to explore still with 500 quests apiece and you still have 500 unfinished quests in your journal and when you finally finish them all and move to chapter 3 and get the girl thief/mage back from your village (iomen sp?) she is way behind the power curve but yu still want her in your party. Blah Blah Blah.

I really got off track so I'll end here. Sorry for rambling.
Post Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:25 pm
 
crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Captain of the Guard




Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis
   

Hmm, I'm an American who doesn't find Gothic 1 or 2 to be all that. I know why.
The game is way too passive for me, especially in the beginning. I never get into the story of Gothic because the beginnings of the game are so boring. Start game, can't name character or do much manipulating of stats etc. Talk to a characters, heads towards first town, a few easy combats, then talk to several characters and do a few simple tasks. Head into town. Spend the next 10 hours talking to every character in town to learn what's going on. Gothics are like PS:T
in a large way. You'll spend hours listening to the developers tell a story while your character passively listens. You'll run around a kill a few things and occasionally pick up a skill, but mostly you are a story chaser. I am an old school crpger who likes exploration, stat/skill building, and then seeing the effects of that building played out in battles or puzzles. I like to actively think, not passively listen.

Outside of Gothics though, some of my favorite games are European. I love the Realms of Arkania series, Amberstar and Ambermoon were great, and
I enjoyed Ars Majicka. I'm currently enjoying Spellforce: The Order of Dawn, which is also European. Games that don't focus strongly on the character growing in combat or magic bore me to death. I love finding weapons and armor and spells, etc. I hate too much listening or text reading. I'd rather
read a book or watch a movie.
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Post Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:09 pm
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Stranger In A Strange Land




Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia
   

I would have thought that exploration was one of Gothic's strong points.
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Post Tue Jan 20, 2004 8:54 pm
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Most Exalted Highlord




Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas
   

quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
I would have thought that exploration was one of Gothic's strong points.


I agree; I started G2 by exploring most of the island and building up skill points and wealth so that I could make an educated descision as to how to mold my character, not blindly twiddle stats before the game even starts. I got involded in the story as it suited me.
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Post Tue Jan 20, 2004 9:35 pm
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crpgnut
Captain of the Guard
Captain of the Guard




Joined: 22 May 2002
Posts: 197
Location: St. Louis
   

quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
I would have thought that exploration was one of Gothic's strong points.


Exploration is Gothic's only strong point, Dhruin, IMHO. I hate all the talking that you have to do to get into the story. If I try Gothic 2 again, I'm going to just start exploring and killing and ignore the story until I have no choice. The story is what is extremely simplistic and boring. I always get frustrated and bored when I try to follow the main quest, so ignoring it altogether might make the game more enjoyable for a longer period of time. You have to be extremely careful in how you explore though. A few steps in the wrong direction is a guaranteed death. If you find snappers or orcs before you have a few levels under your belt, it's reload time. Gothic is okay, just not as fun, to me, as many other games. I enjoyed Lionheart for a much longer time than Gothics, though Gothic at least stays consistent in what it is. Lionheart would have won game of the year if it never left New Barcelona. Combat was its weakness and ultimate downfall. I keep coming back to Gothic though. I know there's a good game in there, if I can ever stay interested in it long enough.
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Post Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:31 pm
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Jung
Most Exalted Highlord
Most Exalted Highlord




Joined: 19 Jun 2002
Posts: 411
Location: Texas
   

quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
I would have thought that exploration was one of Gothic's strong points.


Exploration is Gothic's only strong point, Dhruin, IMHO. I hate all the talking that you have to do to get into the story.


I am not sure how you can have a story without talking or reading. Are you saying you like RPGs without a story? Really, all you are left with is combat and exploration...not much of an RPG to me. I don't believe that an RPG is only about stats building and combat.
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Post Wed Jan 21, 2004 4:53 pm
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
High Emperor




Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California
Hmmm
   

quote:
Originally posted by crpgnut
I hate all the talking that you have to do [In Gothic 2] to get into the story.


But without the 'talking' it's a bit hard for any story to materialize. That's sorta a catch 22 dontcha think? Or more plainly, that's Diablo 2.

However, I do feel that the story driven parts of both Gothic's 1 and 2 are lumped primarily at the beginning. Meaning that when you start playing the game, there is a lot of talking to do with the various NPCs. Then, as you begin to progress through the chapters, the amount of talking drops off sharply.

Perhaps a better approach would be for the designers to 'spread out' the dialog a little more evenly.

quote:
Originally posted by Jung
I am not sure how you can have a story without talking or reading


Also worth pointing out, given the large amounts of dialog, that at least you can 'listen' to it because it's all actually spoken. It doesn't really get any better than this, and if this still bothers someone, then perhaps those people really aren't interested in CRPGs as much as they thought they were.
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Post Wed Jan 21, 2004 5:10 pm
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