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mikelhall
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 26 Dec 2001
Posts: 275
Location: Greensboro, NC |
Yep, Wiz 8 rules. Just as good as MM9 was bad. Maybe there will one day be a Wiz 9. Who knows?
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Fri Aug 16, 2002 4:36 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Stranger things have happened, but Linda and Brenda have both said in the past that Wiz9 is very unlikely (at least by the former Sir-Tech team). It's certainly not on anyone's drawing board right now. 
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Fri Aug 16, 2002 4:39 am |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
dteowner:
For me Baldurs Gate 1 was only a tech-demo for a new good game-engine. With the exception of the final city - "Baldurs Gate" the game was boring.
Baldurs Gate 2 is better in every way.
My opinion about AD&D-rules:
they are good for pen and paper games, but for crpgs the SPECIAL system, the Wizardry system and the Might&Magic system are doing a much better job. I would also recommend Jeff Vogels Avernum skill system - one of the best i have seen.
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Fri Aug 16, 2002 9:14 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Hidden X: I fully agree with you on your last post, also about the AD&D rules, however I must admit that the new 3rd AD&D rules used in NWN (Neverwinter) with many skills and treats, and lower requirements of exp points for leveling up have made the AD&D rules more interesting also for CRPG's, than the older AD&D versions!
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Fri Aug 16, 2002 10:02 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Michael C
Hidden X: I fully agree with you on your last post, also about the AD&D rules, however I must admit that the new 3rd AD&D rules used in NWN (Neverwinter) with many skills and treats, and lower requirements of exp points for leveling up have made the AD&D rules more interesting also for CRPG's, than the older AD&D versions!
Perhaps this isn't the right place to ask, but I'm far more interested in the opinions of Wiz8 fans (that probably have similar taste in games to me) than the general public on this one. Would a diehard M&M and Wiz8 fan think NWN is pretty good? I hear such great things, but I'm pretty worried. I've always preferred 1st person games, but I've enjoyed a few isometrics. As I've babbled about here, I get bored with AD&D levelling, but NWN's 3rd ed rules might be better. I also prefer to design my character/party from the beginning rather than recruiting as I go. Oh, while I'd use mods, I probably won't mess with multiplayer. Is NWN worth a look, or should I return to Wiz8 after I get done with Morrowind?
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Fri Aug 16, 2002 4:31 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
i haven't played Neverwinter Nights, yet. At the moment i'm playing Divine Divinity and i'm waiting for Lionheart and Gothic 2 (maybe Icewind Dale 2 and Seadogs 2).
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Fri Aug 16, 2002 8:12 pm |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
I'll let you know soon Dteowner. I just got my copy of it, and will probably install it later tonight instead of playing Wiz8 more.
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The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
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Sat Aug 17, 2002 1:48 am |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
Well, I started playing it (single player only; I won't try multiplayer until I feel a lot more comfortable with it) for about 4 hours last night. It's definitely different than Wiz8, and I can see why some people love it and some people hate it. First some objective comments, then some opinions:
1) Only real time combat, which doesn't give you as fine control as Wiz8. [This is fact, not opinion.] This is because combat is much faster.
2) Only 1 player character, the rest of your party is recruited NPCs. I didn't read a party limit size in the manual.
3) The game has "chapters". I started in the prologue, and am now in chapter 1. At least so far, NPCs do NOT go with you from chapter to chapter.
4) Although there is only one PC, you can multi-class him/her. I never played AD&D 3d rules before, so this multi-class thing is NOT what you might expect. You start off with a character in 1 class, and every time you level up you get to choose what class you want to advance (up to 3 classes in 1 character). Maximum is level 20, either all in 1 class, or 19/1, or 10/5/5, or any other combination that adds up to 20. XP needed to advance to next level is fixed. So if you're 2/2, to get another level (which would be in 1 class only) you need to earn the same # of points as a single class going from 4 to 5. Also, spells must be memorized in advance other than clerical healing spells.
5) Perspective is limited to overhead views.
6) NPC interaction is menu driven - pick your question or response from a fixed list.
7) NWN does keep track of quests for you, so you know what you still need to do.
Now for my opinions so far:
1) Wiz8 has better graphics. Using the same graphics card, NWN tells me I don't have a good enough graphics card installed so that it may cause problems. Haven't encountered that, though. I don't plan on upgrading my graphics card at this time. Maybe it looks better with a better card, but I don't think it will match Wiz8.
2) Movement can be a little frustrating. There are 2 sets of keyboard controls, 1 for camera angle and 1 to rotate the PC. Nice feature, but very different from Wiz8. I prefer 1 set, so that if I choose to turn my character, I then don't have to also turn the camera to see what I'm now looking at. (Of course, you can turn the camera without turning the PC, but there are plenty of times when you'd like to do both simultaneously.)
3) I don't like the real-time combat in this game. Everything happens too fast for you to process what's going on. So combats initiated, and your character starts hacking, and then say you want to cast a healing spell. You don't have an idea when it's going to go off - there's no combat progress bar like Wiz8 has. Also, if you start your intuitive sequence of actions to do something like dispel undead, it's a long process (right click on character, special option, clerical, dispel) and combat continues while you go through these steps. There is a feature to pause the game so you don't lose your combat time doing this, but to me this should have been standard if you're going to make the process so complicated.
4) There is a "quickbar" so that you can 1 keystroke or 1 click a complicated task like dispel undead or casting a spell. But that means you have to customize your quickbar to do it. (There are 36 slots in the quickbar.) And you have to remember what each of the icons do, or you'll waste time trying to figure out which one is the one you want.
5) Good journal and good notes regarding quests. When something gets written in your journal automatically, the journal icon starts flashing so you know to read it. Also, you can write in your own journal.
I'm playing a lawful-good cleric whose up to level 3. In this time, he's cast maybe 1/2 dozen spells.  He's done far more thief-like stuff looking for loot and opening chests and crates than than anything clerical.
I'll see if the game improves as it goes along. I'll play it through to the end, even though I'm not wowed by it so far.
And having said all that, I bought the game because I wanted to try a multi-player game. So I really haven't gotten to do with it what I want yet.
I'll keep you posted in this thread here in the Wiz8 forum; since I'm trying to compare the 2 games, I don't think I'm too far off-topic.
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The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
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Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:03 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
Thanks, Bilbo. This is an excellent analysis, and I look forward to your thoughts as you get deeper into the game. I think this type of compare/contrast is appropriate in this forum (and my opinion is oooh so important ). Since Wiz8 has been out for a while now, I think gamers that enjoyed it will be looking for their next "fix". Your opinions should prove quite helpful to them.
For now, it sounds like the kind of game I'd get out of the bargain bin to fill some time until a "good" release came out. Keep us posted!
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Sat Aug 17, 2002 4:43 pm |
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Thormiel
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 33
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NWN's single player campaign does have a couple of interesting quests. For example, in one of the chapters you have to defend a man accused of murder in court.
Overall NWN's sp campaign is mediocre at best in my opinion. The story did have some twists, but overall it is pretty cliché. The voice acting of some characters are pretty over the top in a bad way. I got to almost the end of chapter 3 and then got bored and haven't touched it since. I haven't tried the multiplayer side yet. |
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Sun Aug 18, 2002 1:21 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
NWN: Bilbo have made a pretty good review, but i like to mention some more things in comparison to W8:
1. Yep, you control only one character, and can only hire one NPC, which you don't directly control, just give basic behavior restrictions like: When to heal your character, how far he/she should stay behind your character, helping opening locked chest and a few other things. You also can't equip or manage the inventory of your NPC character.
2. Combat is realtime, but you can anytime pause it and give new orders during pause. Combat feels much like diablo with a pause option.
3. Playing a male characters gives you a okay story, with nice twists.
4. I'm a 1st person view game freak myself, and no 3rd person view game can give me same immersiveness feeling in a gameworld as 1st person view. But for graphics, I have to say I find it at least as good as W8, if not better. In the woods the sun breaks through in a few spots and is really beautifull. It's defently a lot nicer than BG2.
5. The new 3rd AD&D rules is much better than the previous versions, and is quite playable with feasts, skills and more level ups. The exp. points neede for the next level is not exploding higher from level to next level unlike previous versions. It can't beat W8 in level up, then again no game propably can.
6. Single player campaign is about 50-70 game hours. I used 67 hours exploring very thoroughly.
7. I like the 3 times 10 quickbars for fast access, not only for items, but also for weapon switch, magic or specific skill/treat uses.
8. The game got a lot of custom items to be made, if you can find the ingrediense, just like W8.
9. The freedom in the game is okay, however you are limited to 5-8 areas in each chapter.
10. The movement of character and camera just needs a little bit getting used to, you just have to customize the buttons, so they work best for you!
11. The maximum level at level 20 is no bigger problem for the single player game, because you reach this level very close to the end, and it's nice to finsh the game with a level 20 character.
12. Mostly your choises in conversation is given, but actually there are quite a few times were your choises will turn the story, and you can't go back and make another choise unless you cheat and reload. Even at one point, you play a lawyer, and your choises of statement are very important for your clients survival, again with no options to redo a sentence! Nice!
13. The game is no W8, but it's a prety solid CRPG, and if the 3rd person view is not a totally turnoff for you, this game is certainly worth considering. It's in my opinion better than BG2 in many ways, except you can't control a larger party, but I kind of liked this "one man" show for a change.
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Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:38 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by HiddenX
dteowner:
For me Baldurs Gate 1 was only a tech-demo for a new good game-engine. With the exception of the final city - "Baldurs Gate" the game was boring.
Baldurs Gate 2 is better in every way.
Heh, I think I'm in the minority here, but I actually *liked* the free exploration during the first half of BG 1, and it was a feature that I really missed in BG 2. I liked having to "find" new areas by walking off the map, and I liked that feeling of not knowing what you're going to run into out there in the wilderness. It was cool knowing that there was so much out there that was not neccessary to advance the main plot. And even though a lot of the areas were relatively sparse, I liked that too, for it made it seem even more like the wilderness. I guess I would probably enjoy a game like Morrowind (if I could run it on my system  )
- Wind |
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Mon Aug 19, 2002 9:45 am |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
quote:
Originally posted by Michael C
4. I'm a 1st person view game freak myself, and no 3rd person view game can give me same immersiveness feeling in a gameworld as 1st person view. But for graphics, I have to say I find it at least as good as W8, if not better. In the woods the sun breaks through in a few spots and is really beautifull. It's defently a lot nicer than BG2.
I qualified my commentary saying that NWN has issues with my graphics card. My computer is about 2 years and 8 months old, so it's not even close to state of the art anymore. NWN may look better with a better graphics card. But given the same hardware limitations, so far I have seen much better from Wiz8. I haven't been into the woods yet, since I'm still early in the game....
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The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
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Wed Aug 21, 2002 4:01 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote:
Originally posted by Bilbo
quote:
Originally posted by Michael C
4. I'm a 1st person view game freak myself, and no 3rd person view game can give me same immersiveness feeling in a gameworld as 1st person view. But for graphics, I have to say I find it at least as good as W8, if not better. In the woods the sun breaks through in a few spots and is really beautifull. It's defently a lot nicer than BG2.
I qualified my commentary saying that NWN has issues with my graphics card. My computer is about 2 years and 8 months old, so it's not even close to state of the art anymore. NWN may look better with a better graphics card. But given the same hardware limitations, so far I have seen much better from Wiz8. I haven't been into the woods yet, since I'm still early in the game....
I got a Geforce 2 card on my PC.
Some W8 indoor areas are really nice Ex: the reflection floors in the monestary and in the area of the priests in Arnika. However most outdoors are more rough and "edgy" propably to keep the framerate high on medicore PC's.
It's kind of hard to compare 1.st person view games and 3rd person view games, because I think we have tendensies to let us influence by our favorit style of view point.
NWN got a couple of very nice areas too. Expect a nice sight when you hit the dense woods with leave filled ground and sparse breakthrough of sunrays in chapter 3 if I remember it correct!
I wont want to be the final judge if W8 or NWN got better graphics, but regarding NWN and BG2, NWN is a clear winner in my book!
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Wed Aug 21, 2002 8:56 am |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
Perhaps this isn't the right place to ask, but I'm far more interested in the opinions of Wiz8 fans (that probably have similar taste in games to me) than the general public on this one. Would a diehard M&M and Wiz8 fan think NWN is pretty good? I hear such great things, but I'm pretty worried. I've always preferred 1st person games, but I've enjoyed a few isometrics. As I've babbled about here, I get bored with AD&D levelling, but NWN's 3rd ed rules might be better. I also prefer to design my character/party from the beginning rather than recruiting as I go. Oh, while I'd use mods, I probably won't mess with multiplayer. Is NWN worth a look, or should I return to Wiz8 after I get done with Morrowind?
I am big Wiz8 fan - as you know. And I didnt like BG too much. Main thing I didnt like were AD&D rules.
NWN is better - at least for me, than BG. Leveling is quicker and more interesting. You have more choices.
But still leveling, party creation and developing your party was much more interesting in Wiz8 and because it is nearly most important thing for me (in games), I like Wiz8 much more, but I still really enjoy NWN (graphics, story, fights...).
Another thing that make Wiz8 better for me are turn-based fights. Yes, I know - you have "pause button" in NWN, but still it is not turn-based game. |
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Sat Aug 24, 2002 10:52 am |
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