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Myrthos
Spoiler of All Fun
Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 1926
Location: Holland |
| MMORPGDot Feature: Ekim's Gamer View: Paying for Options |
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Another weekly <a href="/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=722">editorial</A> by Ekim on MMORPGDot. This time he talks about various initiatives of how to encourage and reward role-playing on RP servers. |
Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:27 pm |
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Lord_Brownie
High Emperor
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Unfashionable arm of the spiral galaxy |
Charge folks for the option, and less folks will be role-playing because less folks will be willing to pay. The only answer is to develope role-playing games, not fighting games. A solution to the problem has not been found because noone making games is looking for it. One big step is more, and greater NPC interaction, and things to role-play around. After that, it will be up to role-players to recruit and train new role-players.
LB |
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Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:33 pm |
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Billy
Guest
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I think a huge problem with MMORPG's is that role-playing is stupid in them. The basis of the game is so unrealistic that it makes role-playing seem silly and only for the extreme crazy's. How can you be a hero in an MMORPG? If there was a pure perma-death game you could actually be heroic. How brave do you have to be to risk basically nothing? Hero's risk something. How evil can you be when you can't unwillingly kill people in most games and when you do they get sent a little ways away to respawn with a light penalty. It's all stupid.
I will not waste time trying to roleplay in any game that sets you up for failure right off the bat. Oldschool UO was allright with the freedom everyone had but it definitly not a game set for perma-death.
It drives me nuts when supposed RP'ers want carebear worlds with no PvP and light death penalty. Because worlds like that are ripe for Drama and heroic exploits. If Frodo couldn't die or be attacked by other people I guess that would make LOTR a lot better trilogy. Shakespear's plays would be so much nicer. Why don't these people play "A tale in the dessert" mmorpg?
I wish G.R.R.Martin would design a virtual world. I bet there would be permadeath |
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Sat Aug 30, 2003 5:30 pm |
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Lord_Brownie
High Emperor
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Unfashionable arm of the spiral galaxy |
Perma death is a bad idea for role-playing. I want to develop a character, not roll stats all the time. Just as perma death my promote certain styles of role playing, such as murders and villians (which old UO did), non-perma death games encourge another type of role playing, story driven character development, and free from interaction. In books the fate of the character is ensured by the writer. Frodo could be attacked by orcs, but his victory was dictated by the writer. A good role-playing game is going to have to account for the fact that players will want to win, and not have thier victory dictated to them by others; influnced by others yes, thats what role-playing is all about. The problem came in UO when 'evil' groups murdered unrestricted, and it became unrealistic. There was too little control over PvP, and thus a backlash against PvP in the old UO style. The groups that PKed where so ramped some nights, along with explotors and griefers, that the game became unplayable, even for those like me, who like the idea of PvP. If UO had perma death, noone would have been please. Sometimes telling a story is the risk! Look at how RPers are being strangled out of EQ. Sad really, plenty of room for both types of players. Bottem line: I'm not going to pay more for a role-playing server, and I sure wont pay for a role-playing perma death, PvP unrestricted server. I assume such a construct would please many people, thats great, but I dont see that many folks being there. The world would be in flux to much
LB. |
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Sat Aug 30, 2003 10:06 pm |
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Migitman
Guest
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I hear what you're saying Lord. But I really disagree. UO wasn't permadeath and even though there were villians, the villians created hero's. And I want to win when I go to Vegas but there is a big chance of me getting PK'ed at the blackjack or pie gow poker table. Thats what makes gambling fun--the gamble, risk, chance, ext.
If a game is built around perma-death. And if you can imagine a realistic world simulation (and as soon as you think realistic you should think permadeath) in a fantasy setting and stop thinkinging about EQ and other MMORPGs out to date. I know that saying realistic fantasy is a contradiction in terms but you know what I mean. I don't believe Billy gave UO as a model of what he would call a idealistic game to implement permadeath in.
The problem with UO was that it was like gambling with fake money-it doen't matter. At the end of the day you are in the same place you started. You want exciting gambling--use money. you want exciting game play (or boring if you have no guts)--try permadeath.
The game has to be built around permadeath. You couldn't just add permadeath into any of the existing games out there today. They are not made for it. But I agree with Billy and you. You can role-play without PvP, look at the Desert game. But how many hero's are in that game? Did anyone that play it ever get an adrenaline rush?
I'm getting off topic and off point so I'll give up. It doen't matter anyway. No company with the resources to actually make it to live will ever have the balls to make a realistic mmorpg. But I bet when they do it will be like Vegas. |
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Sun Aug 31, 2003 12:00 am |
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Lord_Brownie
High Emperor
Joined: 16 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: Unfashionable arm of the spiral galaxy |
Personaly, I dont care much for gambling, not a moral thing, its just not my cup of tea. It is easy to understand why may would enjoy a game that strives to bring realism into the game world. UO started with that idea, having a ecosystem and open PvP, but you are correct, in the end, game mechanics wise, you are back where you started, PKed or not. However, somefolks invest more in the things that maybe complace in the game that others do not invest in. Some might loose that first piece of armor they made, or a gift from a friend. Characters in every CRPG, MMO or not, have a great deal of sentamental value to thier creators, and perma-death would undoubtly shake up that sentament. The game world itself would feel odd, too. One day you know a guy named Joe, he dies horribly to save someone, a great hero, but then next day the same player makes a new Joe. No character change at all, just a stat change. He is played the same way, and has the same history. This breaks up the 'real' feeling of the world with his 'remade' ressurection, and underminds perma death. I deffentaly see the potenal for fun here, esp. with ways to be ressurected, like powerfull comrades that are in churches, or long quests by ingame friends to bring back a comrade. This types of options would build some drama indeed, but also undermind perma death. Its deffentaly two different styles of role-playing involved here: character development intensive, and action/drama intensive.
LB |
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Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:42 am |
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Billy
Guest
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I agree with what your saying in some ways. But the problem with character advancement way is that they are what you called in your first post "fighting games." And the "villians and murderers" didn't really risk much in UO, don't you think they, and everyone esle, would be alot more careful if when you attacked someone you risked your own death? It makes things alot more realistic.
When this debate came up before someone told me, "if you want realism then play an FPS." Isn't role-playing supposed to be a realistic simulation? The more you can relate to a game and the more it makes sense to you the more emmmersed you should become. If I was going to role-play a cow by walking around barking or role-play snoop doggy dog by saying "Though art an errant knight!!" people would think I'm an idiot.
Why would everyone hate me for helping destroy a monster in EQ by caling me a kill stealer. Why would a big, dangerous, mean, toughguy warrior run to the authorities like a sissy because I keep yelling the same thing over and over (me spamming the screen and him reporting me to CS). None of it makes sense at all. Its all a bunch of garbage. It is impossible to role-play any kind of hero, (and for the most part for most games now a villian also) in an MMORPG.
Camping, kill stealing, respawning, endlessly dying, Powerleveling, gimping, and everything associated with mmorpgs all work against role-playing.
And look at EQ where stats really mean crap compared to items. You can start a fighter and dump all the points you can allocate into int and not be gimped. Well, I guess that is realistic in a sense but |
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Sun Aug 31, 2003 8:46 pm |
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P.s.--Billy
Guest
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I forgot to say that this was a good essay. I wonder what Ekim thinks about SWG enternainer classes? And how about being able to recieve a mission that you can complete for experience multiple ways? Like using a diplomatic way to get someone you could kill for the experience to turn themselve in for the same amount of exp. Things like that. |
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Mon Sep 01, 2003 9:50 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
First, I just want to address a little something that was recurring in most previous threads. Role-playing has many forms and shapes. You don't have to play a hero or villain to be a roleplayer. You could play a brave but witless brawler that picks a fight with everything that he sees regardless of the possible outcome, but who's terrified of horses, for some reason. Sometimes in DAoC you would see people refuse to kill certain types of mobs because of factions. In SWG I refused to kill Jawas just because I thought they never did anything wrong towards my character. This is all role-play, whether it's conciensous or not. You don'T specifically have to be able to be a hero to roleplay.
quote:
Originally posted by Billy
I forgot to say that this was a good essay. I wonder what Ekim thinks about SWG enternainer classes? And how about being able to recieve a mission that you can complete for experience multiple ways? Like using a diplomatic way to get someone you could kill for the experience to turn themselve in for the same amount of exp. Things like that.
Well, thanks for the comment, I appreciate it!  What I think of the entertainer clas in SWG? Well, that's a complicated question to answer. In short, I like the idea that there is a non-combat class like this (although it's not the only non-combat class in the game). I haven't tried playing an entertainer very much as of yet, but from what I know it's a very role-playing intense profession, if you really want to try to entertain people. The problem is that there is some tedium involved (as with all things) and nowadays you often see entertainers just go AFK while their avatar does the dancing...
Personally when that happens and there are other "live" entertainers present I will favor them instead of the AFK one that only tries to take advantage of the game mechanics to advance. Anyway, without making too long a post regarding that specific issue, entertainers are a great way to promote role-playing, but role-playing remains player-dependant.
Missions that have multiple ways of being solved are great role-playing tools. But MMORPGs being the mammoths that they are in terms of content I doubt that developers even have the time to consider implementing those. I would much rather see player-made quests implemented in MMORPGs, but for some reason that's still virtually unheard of. There are many aspects that need to be addressed regarding those and I think that developers are nervous when it comes to them because a)players could greatly abuse of such a system, and b)it would be hard to manage and to moderate. MMORPGs are all about the player community, yet we're still stuck with static, lifeless quests given by NPCs (which, by the way, quests that have multiple solutions are still a part of, although they are much less lifeless)...
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Tue Sep 02, 2003 2:18 pm |
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