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gdgrimm
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 110
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| What does "good character development" mean? |
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So we've had a bunch of threads talking about what makes an RPG an RPG, and what elements are most important in an RPG. One thing often mentioned is "good character development". Except, I'm guessing that this means different things to different people. So what does it mean to YOU?
For me, it kind of goes like this. I start out by imagining a character. I think about how that character would view the game world. How would the character handle encounters? Would the character act different in some situations than others? What techniques will the character use in combat?
Now an RPG with 'good character development' would allow me to answer those questions anyway I'd like. It allows me to start playing the character that way, and then allows me (in fact, almost forces me) to develop the character to be better at those techniques. Yet through all that, the character is able to accomplish all the game goals just as easily (or difficultly) as any other type of character I could imagine and develop.
Now here's some illustrations of this mentality.
Gothic I'd describe as having 'decent character development'. It wasn't good, but it wasn't horrible, either. The negative was that about 25% of the way through the game, you had to choose one of three character paths to follow (melee type, ranged bow type, destructive magic type), and then you had to 'optimize' your character along that path. The game didn't provide any development feedback (i.e. doing alot of melee didn't make it easier to develop melee tactics), but if you didn't choose your development 'wisely' (i.e. you tried to make a character who was good at everything), the end game became very difficult and almost impossible. I also recall System Shock having a similar type of character development.
The Elder Scrolls I'd have to describe as having 'very good character development'. In Morrowind, I've already finished a character who's technique involved running up to things, and if they attacked, brutully meleeing with a sword or axe. My current character generally sneaks around to see what he may have to fight, then conjures one or two allies, then pulls a bow and starts the battle from a distance, letting the allies take the brunt of the spells and melee. I can also imagine a character that may rely heavily on conjuring in battle, but instead of archery to help out, would use magic to hide or run away completely, conjuring more creatures as needed.
In any case, as you play the game, it pushes your character to get better at those particular techniques. Yet, whatever techniques you choose to use, the game is still very playable.
I can think of quite a few other definitions of 'good character developments' (as well as the cop out of "well, it's a little bit of each of them"). But I think I'll turn the table over to others for a bit. |
Thu Oct 09, 2003 9:04 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
As you say, it's an individual definition, but since you asked, I'll "grace you" with my definition. 
Character development for me revolves around a wide variety of variables that yield a widely different character depending on how they are changed, as well as how often the player gets to change them. Tradeoffs are important, as the player should never be able to "have it all".
My favorite example is Wiz8. Different classes have 30-40 skills they can improve as the game progresses, but no 2 classes have the same skills. In fact, most classes have some skill which is unique, forcing the player to pick and choose which skills to have and which must be missing. A level 40 bard is radically different in what he/she can do from a level 40 priest. While there are rumors of a level cap, I don't personally know of anyone that's reached it, even when intentionally trying.
NWN is a slight step down on the character development scale. While there are a great deal of possibilities with the skills and feats, the level cap and slower D&D progression means the player can put in several hours of gaming without ever getting the opportunity to improve/alter/grow the character.
Morrowind is another step down. Given enough time and money to train, a character can "do it all equally well." There's little difference between a high level melee type, caster type, or rogue type beyond how the player chooses to play. Getting there entails excellent development, though. I expect that my opinion is colored by the fact that I just couldn't make myself like MW, though.
While I have barely scratched the surface of Gothic1 right now, I'm terribly disappointed with the development so far. The player has zero input on the starting character, and (as you note) I can already see getting railroaded into one of the three archetypes (melee, caster, rogue/archer).
In summary, I think the keys are lots of choices, regular opportunities to make those choices, and measurably different results depending on which choices you make.
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Thu Oct 09, 2003 10:14 pm |
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Azel
Village Dweller
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 6
Location: Italy |
I want to put my opinion to answer this interesting and long-argued question. To put it simple i always make a beforehand question, when thinking of character development: "What defines the character?". We all know that the character is defined by roleplay, but in CRPGs roleplay is limited by the game itself, so all weighs on other factors, mostly numerical: skills and attributes.
Consequently i am one of those who would eliminate radically the concept of "character class" so inherent to RPGs. Most of characters are defined of what they can do, but it is not necessary to choose class and give that class specific skills and none other (pertinent to other classes, for example). A good character development system is a skillbased one, in my opinion, ruled by experience points gained through practice. Each skill has its own difficulty (tightrope walking is more difficult than jumping, i think) and each character is more or less apt to perform certain actions.
Those criteria are basically followed by Morrowind character development system; so i agree with gdgrimm because i also appreciate that system, though i found somewhat too..."mechanic" (we have a lot of PC that jump all over the land  ..). Morrowind system blend skillbased development with character aptitude for certain skills (the Primary-secondary-tertiary skill assignment) and/or skill difficulty.
Gothic system is not bad, i found it somewhat original because it is fitted to attain a more interactive gameplay (think of the picklock system, for ex). Too bad that skill don't improve with use, even a slight. But, alas, Gothic is another one class-oriented development system. One can joust his/her character to be a jack of all trades, but finally he/she has to choose a side or die.
One of the best idea about character development i found in an old game "Darklands": you create your party, character by character, and assign xp depending on what age he/she is.
You assign experience points on a fiveyears base: that is, your PC starts at 15 and has its first 5years experience points. That xp pts depend on the
occupation the character chooses and the attributes concerning that occupation (also social position determines what kind of occupation the PC can attain: nobles can be knight, wanderers do not). When done with the first 5years stage, it will be asked if the character goes through another stage, reaching 25 years, and so on until a maximum of 60 years. Note that after 30-35 years, aging will show its effects on characters attributes. So long for the creation phase; once done, the party goes adventuring and gains experience and development by individual skill experience. That is, if the charater prays or do things in according to the "piety" value, that value is modified; if the character fight with a mace, "mace" skill develops further. And so on.
About attributes, the development should follow that of skills. If you train long with a sword, you strenght will improve. Morrowind thought about that, also, since each skill has a governing attribute that develops parallel to the skill.
-Azel
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Dreams are funny things: they make you live, they make you play your life, they make you die. |
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Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:43 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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Why make it unnecessarily complex? Good character development means lots of skills, magic etc. to choose from either in a skill or class based system. The same as what defines a good RPG: choices. Skills need to be improvable, etc.
Gothic had a horrible character devlopment system. You had like 6 skills, all of which you could improve twice, no more. So basically, you could become good in all skills, which is really lame. The same goes for Morrowind, even though it had way more depth, but trainers and such ruined the system.
Fallout, Neverwinter and Baldur's Gate 2 had great character development, lots of skills or classes to choose from, and different races. Lots of magic that improved through the game etc. Sadly, it was hard to train your main attributes in those games. So, that's where a game like Dungeon Siege really shines. The more you useda melee weapon, the more your strength rose, but you also got a bonus in dex, wisdom and such.
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Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Fri Oct 10, 2003 5:07 am |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
My first choice in a character development system is the Quest for Glory system. You use a skill, it improves.
Second would be something along the lines of the SPECIAL system from Fallout. Lots of cool choices so I can make a unique character.
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Fri Oct 10, 2003 9:32 pm |
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Azel
Village Dweller
Joined: 07 Oct 2003
Posts: 6
Location: Italy |
| More on skills and development |
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Yes i agree, especially with the Quest for glory example. I don't think it's "unnecessary complex" to add a realistic touch to the development of a character. All in all, just think about all the skills everyone of us has a point or two into, or the skills in which we are more specialized (our work, maybe) or some in which we have passion and maybe a lot more of skill (hobbies, passion etc) or some skills in which we are so called "master" (in my case, none  ). But none of us has a preset "class". A cardiologist can shoot guns like Billy the kid and speak three tongues including a tibetan dialect and, why not, pickpocket. A master carpenter can play drum like Portnoy and know a lot about quantum physics and psychology or even how to fire a crossbow and make a good shot, why not a character cannot know certain skills or all? The development system, if good, will make sure that no one can be a master of all skills, just because it's very rare, not because it's not possible.
Again, the simplest version: you use a skill, it improves. You don not know a skill, you can learn. You use attributes through skills, your attributes increase.
In CRPGs the development has to be simpler and less realistic, for plain reasons.
And yes, the fun is choice - the more choices we have the more fun - but even more fun is "realism" (sounds funny to speak about realism in a CRPG, especially fantasy  . )
Azel
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Dreams are funny things: they make you live, they make you play your life, they make you die. |
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Fri Oct 10, 2003 10:37 pm |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
The SPECIAL system (Fallout rather than Lionheart) is my favourite.
Simply (for me), a good character development system should be as open as possible with the opportunity to make different characters that play quite differently and you should be forced to make some choices. It helps to level frequently.
The gaming experience should vary a lot with different types of characters. Games that let you build all-round characters defeat the purpose of creating any sort of character in the first place. |
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Sat Oct 11, 2003 1:16 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
One of the things I liked about Wiz 8, was that your skills improved as you used them, BETWEEN Levels. This to me, is far more realistic than having to wait for a level up for my skills to improve.
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If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Sat Oct 11, 2003 4:20 am |
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hoyp
High Emperor
Joined: 02 Oct 2002
Posts: 501
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THe one thing I dont like is that developers seem to be stat spamming.
They put in way too many stats that are almost the same as other stats and stats that barely affect the gameplay.
I would rather have a fewer number of stats as long as they are unique and they affect the gameplay. |
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Sat Oct 11, 2003 6:08 am |
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Namirrha
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 218
Location: Utah County, Utah. |
quote:
Originally posted by Val
My first choice in a character development system is the Quest for Glory system. You use a skill, it improves.
Second would be something along the lines of the SPECIAL system from Fallout. Lots of cool choices so I can make a unique character.
SPECIAL has always been a favorite, too. I haven't found too many RPGs that allowed a unique character as Fallout did.
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Give me the shadows, shield me from the light, and I shall let nothing pass in the darkness of the night. |
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Sat Oct 25, 2003 2:39 am |
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Roach
SBR Belfry Bat
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 3233
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| Re: What does "good character development" mean? |
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quote:
Originally posted by gdgrimm
So what does it mean to YOU?
‘To me’ it means plot twists that directly affect, and change at least in some small way, the personality of the character. But then when I hear the term ‘Character development’ I think storyline instead of stats and skills. If the chara development storyline wise is good enough and the plot is good enough than it doesn’t matter much to me. Though if given the option I prefer any system that allows one PC to be very different than another, with very definite strengths and weaknesses. In a game like Morrowind where you can pick and choose any skill without effecting others giving them many strengths and few weaknesses I almost feel like I am cheating. |
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Sat Oct 25, 2003 9:13 am |
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