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RPGDot Forums > CRPGs General

Author Thread
Michael C
Black Dragon
Black Dragon




Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark
   

Hi guys and gals, I see you already moved on to the secondary categories, so I beleive that you are more or less satisfied with the RPG-element categories. I agree that we should try to rate a few games to test the system, and find out if there still should be some minor adjustments in the system.
Okay regarding secondary categories, here is my opinions:
These secondary categories should give us any other frequently asked information about a game that is not RPG-element related. I think not necessarily all categories should have a score from 0-5, as they not all make sense, but only encrypt the real information.

My suggestions:

GRAPHICS:
Wheter we RPG-lovers like it not, there are players out there that regards graphic quality very high on the need to have list, and to oppose your fair demands about timeless information, we could add an year after the graphic score.

0 points: Text only.
1 point: Static pictures, and low resolution (under 640X480)
2 points: 3D or/and max resolution (640 X 480)
3 Points: Up to 1024X760, and up to date or a little worse than normal standard
4 Points: Up to 1600X1200, and among the better in today’s standard.
5 Points: Absolute among the best in it's category, with a few ground breaking content.

PERSPECTIVE:
This is one category we shouldn't rate, just try to give the best describing info. P&P players would mayby oppose against calling 1. person view the best category (My personal preference is 1.st person view). I agree about best immersive feeling in 1.st person view, but I still think if we rate this catregory with a number, gamers would have to go back in the rules to see what EX. a "3" tells about the game.
My suggestions:

TXT: No perspective (e.g. no graphics), text games.
FIX: Fixed viewpoint (Not changeable).
FLEX: Flexible viewpoint (Changing of viewpoint is possible)
ZOOM: Flexible distance. The viewpoint distance can be changed
BIRD: Bird eyes view ( Party/ Characters seen from a flying bird above!
ISO: Isometric view ( Any angle between vertical topdown and 1.st person view, but still seen from above the party/ characters.
HEAD: The close overhead / shoulder view, where the gamers viewpoint follow the character(s) heading, with a look just above the head/shoulders of your character(s), and the character(s) can be seen in the button of the picture.
BACK: The character(s) are fully visible and covers most of the screen, and you follow them from behind, maybe raised a little above the ground.
EYE: The 1.st person view there your viewpoint is the same as looking out of the eyes of your character(s)
TOP: The vertical top down view point.
SIDE: View points like Platform games or the elder Kings/Space quest games

EX:
Might & Magic VII: Perspective: EYE
Diablo 2: Perspective: BIRD-FIX-ISO
Summoner: Perspective: HEAD-ZOOM/ BIRD-ZOOM-ISO
Dungeon siege: BIRD-ZOOM-ISO

PLAYSTYLE:

SP: Single player
MP: Multiplayer
OP: Online play possible
MMO: Massive multiplayer online!
P: Parties possible.
S: Single character game

EX:
Might & Magic VII: Style: SP-P
Diablo 2: Perspective: Style:SP-S/MP/MMO
Summoner: Perspective: Style:SP-P/MP?
Dungeon siege: Style:SP-P/MP/MO

Length:

0 points: Under 8 hours.
1 point: 8 - 20 hours.
2 points: 20- 50 hours.
3 points: 50- 80 hours.
4 points: 80 - 150 hours.
5 points: over 150 hours.

Difficulty:

0 points: Very simply point and click, and no brain triggers at all.
1 point: Very simple, and few very easy brain teasers.
2 points: Simple interface and still no manual is necessary to understand game concept.
3 points: skimming the manual will do, or follow a short tutorial.
4 points: Manual necessary for adequate control, some game mechanics must be learned by doing.
5 points: Manual must be read to the last page to understand the game, and even then the game holds a lot of learning by doing.

A conclusion on a game could look like this:

Might & Magic VII
RPG Factors: Story: 3, Character: 5, NPC:3, World: 5, Manipulation:4, Combat: 4.
RPG Score:= 4.0 => "RPG heavy"
Other Factors: Graphics.:2 (1998?), Length:4, Difficulty:4, Style:SP-P, Perspective: Eye

Do we need more/other info???
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Post Mon Sep 16, 2002 8:59 am
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
The Elder Spy




Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany
   

@Michael C

can you post the newest version of your core-rating system, please ?
Then we can all try to rate a few games.
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Post Mon Sep 16, 2002 9:23 am
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Harmonious Angel




Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany
   

It's still on page 5, second post from the bottom. More comments will follow, as well as some core ratings, but I gotta go right now...
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Post Mon Sep 16, 2002 10:28 am
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Black Dragon




Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark
   

DteOwner: Your arguements regarding perspective are hard to argue against, that's why I suggest a non-score system regarding this category!

Hidden X: Your suggestions to "Difficulty" category are quite funny and could actually do the job, however I guess I will keep my a (bit more serious ) suggestions, if not too many argue against it.
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Post Mon Sep 16, 2002 11:22 am
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Black Dragon




Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark
   

Okay on request the complete newest version of our CRPG spotter system.

VERSION 0.4

To determine if a game should apply to a certain level, all the mentioned demands must be fulfilled in that level and the levels below.

CRPG Categories: Story, Characters, Game-world, Manipulation, Combat.
Other interesting categories: Graphics, Game length, difficulty.

Each category is divided into 6 frames from "none" to "Heavy" CRGP-elements giving a score from 0 to 5 points.

A games points from each category will be added together and then divided with 6 and will classify it's CRPG-score to the following list:

CRPG Factor 0 - < 1 point => "No CRPG"
CRPG Factor 1 - < 2 points => "CRPG light"
CRPG Factor 2 - < 4 points => "CRPG"
CRPG Factor 4 - 5 Points => "CRPG Heavy"

The Categories frames

STORY:

No: 0 Points:
-The story is told in the beginning, and finished in the end, and is not changeable during the game.

Ultra light: 1 point:
-A Few ”events” evolves the story, but still in a given path.

Light: 2 points:
-The story is developing through chapters or milestones, which still have an almost fixed path.
-A very few side stories/quests, or noticeably different paths you can take to advance the same story, are available.

Medium: 3 points:
-The story develops as the game proceeds,
-Events impact on the story are considerable,
-The gamers actions have considerable impact on the development of the story.
-More than one path is possible in the ”main” story.

More: 4 points:
-A few different endings is possible
-More than 2 ways to go through the story
-Lots of side stories/quests are required.
-Quests or tasks got often more than one solution!

Heavy: 5 points:
-Very open ended, with very high replay value regarding the story alone.
-Many events will contribute to many side / main story topics and respond to many different approaches of the gamers.
-Lots of books or other materials can give additional information’s about world for the interested player.

CHARACTERS:

No: 0 Points:
-No development other than a better weapon, armour and a few pre-distributed skill points after each chapter / milestone.

Ultra light: 1 point:
-Max 2 options (points /spells / treats / skills) to distribute and maximum 10 upgrades of the character(s).

Light: 2 points:
-Max 5 options (points /spells / treats / skills) to distribute.
-A minimum of social development / regards in the game-world societies is necessary)

Medium: 3 points:
-Your characters development is much affected be gamers influence.
-Gamers must have access to develop, Spells, skills / treats, attributes (Strength, intelligence etc) on a regular basis.
-The characters can have considerable social impact on more than one society / guild.

More : 4 points:
-Now a party of at least 3 fully controlled characters should be possible,
-The choice from different professions / races should give a combination of at least 10 possible different characters (Note: Different mug-shots don’t count).
-Considerable social impact on more than 2 societies / guilds is possible.

Heavy: 5 points:
-At least 20 times upgrade for your characters,
-At least 10+ options of change each time, Or a learning by doing or teaching possibility which makes up for the 20 level upgrades.
-+15 different races/ professions to choose from.

NPC's:

No: 0 points:
-Few NPC's most only merchants.
-Pre-determined dialogues.

Ultra light: 1 point:
-The dialogues now have a few options, but it still contribute to the same story, and each choice is reversible in consequence.

Light: 2 points:
-NPC's are presented in small societies, and some of them can make a difference in further development of the game.

Medium: 3 points:
-NPC's acts truly as a part of a bigger community.
-NPC's in each society are much aware about social status also toward your characters.
-More than one society with NPC's are present in the world.

More: 4 points:
-There are fleshed out dialogue trees,
-Choices is most final and irreversible.
-NPC’s have considerable impact on the amount of Main / side- stories.

Heavy: 5 points:
-NPC's are aware of the continuously developing situation in the game-world, and react clearly to the gamers actions and deeds.
-More than 2 bigger societies of NPC's must be available.
-Reputation, skills, alignment, attitude etc. have considerable impact on the NPC reaction.

GAMEWORLD:

No: 0 points:
-The task to get from A to B has no or few options to go away from a fixed path.
-The game-world only inhabits monsters and a few merchants.
-The world is without (none monster) societies.

Ultra light: 1 point:
-Still a strict path, but with a few small societies on your way.

Light: 2 points:
-A few areas are optional on your path each chapter / milestone.
-Societies will give some quest / story material.

Medium: 3 points:
-There are at least several physical path's to choose between, and more will open up as the game proceeds.
-Societies must give the feeling of a live community, with their own daily business, and not just a few NPC's waiting for the hero's to come along and pass on a few quests.
-The size of the game-world must be considerable.

More: 4 points:
-Societies must be very different and have strong relation to the game-world and each other.
-We are no longer talking about path's when exploring the world.
-The appearance of monsters and societies must make common sense.

Heavy: 5 points:
-The world is totally open for extreme freedom to explore, and it's your own task to decide if your character(s) are good enough to take on the different part of the world.
-The diversity of the game-world environment must be significant.
-Day & night cycles, and different weather conditions and /or different seasons.

MANIPULTION:

No: 0 points:
-Almost no action possible besides walk/run and combat, except maybe a very few items.

Ultra light: 1 points:
-Events are few with very limited interaction.
-Game-world itself is very static.

Light: 2 points:
-There are a few weapons, armours, items in the game.
-Traps, levers, keys and alike is available in it's simple presence.

Medium: 3 points:
-The game-world is full of weapons, armours, items, skills, spells in significant variations.
-Not item / combat related actions are considerable.
- The things to do will quickly fill up more than one page in your journal, and keep it that way for most of the game.

More: 4 points:
-You can see /influence changes in the environment, or use it either to create/ manipulate things or get strategic possibilities in combat.
-Custom items must be available.

Heavy: 5 points:
-NPC's are many and give a ton of more or less interesting assignments to do.
-Alchemist, spell-casters, smiths, herbalist and other item collectors are in heaven due to the tons of items for manipulation.

COMBAT:

No: 0 points:
-You put your character(s) into position and they solve combat on their own, or the combat result is only affected by your skills on the keyboard.

Ultra light: 1 point:
-Real-time combat only without any pause options.
-Options are limited to the choice of the opponent to attack.

Light: 2 points:
-Character skills and/or players strategic abilities have a noticeable more impact on the outcome of the battles too.

Medium: 3 points:
-Players can more decide the pace of the battle,
-Strategic positions of the party is more vital, and the options for each character is more plentiful.
-At this point it's also important that monsters offers some diversity not only in numbers, but also in strategies necessary to win.
-Monsters AI are more than attacking the closest enemy!
- There must be more issues for your characters during combat, than loosing or giving hit-points. Ex. Poisoning, paralyse, curse etc.

More: 4 points:
-Their must be alternatives to swing your sword and cast a spell during combat Ex. Skills, traps, spells, treats, or items to use in battles.
-Different strategies are necessary for survival.

Heavy: 5 points:
-Each characters can be controlled individual down to the smallest detail and in any pace wanted.
-The monsters must offer a lot of difference both in numbers, abilities, battle environment, which must offer quite a diversity in battle approaches.
- Monsters AI are considerable.

OTHER NON-RPG RELATED INTERESTING CATEGORIES:

GRAPHICS:

An “Year” of evaluation should follow the graphics score!
We try not to express how beautifull the graphics is (eventhough it's difficult to separate), just how high the resolution is, and how many specific graphic technology elements it contains (Like shadows, ligthning etc), and it's standard compared to others at the time of the review!

0 points: Text only.
1 point: Static pictures, and/ or low resolution (under 640X480)
2 points: 3D or/and max resolution (640 X 480)
3 Points: Up to 1024X760, and up to date or a little worse than normal standard compared to others at the time of the review!
4 Points: Up to 1600X1200, and among the better compared to other games at the time it is reviewed.
5 Points: Absolute among the best in it's category, with a few ground breaking content compared to others at the time it is reviewed.

LENGTH:

An average length is used for calculation, a second score in “( )” for maximum hours searching under every stone and solving every quest could be mentioned if it brings the game into another score-area.

0 points: Under 8 hours.
1 point: 8 - 20 hours.
2 points: 20- 50 hours.
3 points: 50- 80 hours.
4 points: 80 - 150 hours.
5 points: over 150 hours.

DIFFICULTY:

Covers both interface and game complexity.

0 points: Very simply point and click, and no brain triggers at all.
1 point: Very simple, and few very easy brain teasers.
2 points: Simple interface and still no manual is necessary to understand game concept.
3 points: skimming the manual will do, or follow a short tutorial.
4 points: Manual necessary for adequate control, some game mechanics must be learned by doing.
5 points: Manual must be read to the last page to understand the game, and even then the game holds a lot of learning by doing.

PERSPECTIVE:

A Non-score category:

TXT: No perspective (e.g. no graphics), text games.
FIX: Fixed viewpoint (Not changeable).
FLEX: Flexible viewpoint (Changing of viewpoint is possible Ex: From "ISO" to "EYE")
ZOOM: Flexible distance. The viewpoint distance can be changed.
ISO: Isometric view ( Any angle between vertical topdown and 1.st person view, but still seen from above the party/ characters.
HEAD: The close overhead / shoulder view, where the gamers viewpoint follow the character(s) heading, with a look just above the head/shoulders of your character(s), and the character(s) can be seen in the button of the picture.
BACK: The character(s) are fully visible and covers most of the screen, and you follow them from behind, maybe raised a little above the ground.
EYE: The 1.st person view where gamers viewpoint is the same as looking out of the eyes of the character(s)
TOP: From the sky the gamer has a vertical down view point on the gameworld.
SIDE: View points like Platform games or the elder Kings/Space quest games

EX:
Might & Magic VII: Perspective: EYE
Diablo 2: Perspective: ISO-FIX
Summoner: Perspective: HEAD-ZOOM/ ISO-ZOOM
Dungeon siege: ISO-ZOOM

PLAYSTYLE:

A non-score category.

SP: Single player
MP: Multiplayer
OP: Online play possible
MMO: Massive multiplayer online!
P: Parties possible.
S: Single character game

EX:
Might & Magic VII: Style: SP-P
Diablo 2: Perspective: Style:SP-S/MP/OP
Summoner: Perspective: Style:SP-P/MP?
Dungeon siege: Style:SP-P/MP/MO

A conclusion on a game could look like this:

Might & Magic VII
RPG Factors: Story: 3, Character: 5, NPC:3, World: 5, Manipulation:4, Combat: 4.
RPG Score:= 4.0 => "RPG heavy"
Other Factors: Graphics:2 (1998?), Length:3(4), Difficulty:4, Perspective: Eye, Style:SP-P.
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Last edited by Michael C on Tue Sep 17, 2002 9:05 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Mon Sep 16, 2002 11:37 am
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel
Harmonious Angel




Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany
   

Mmmm, I was just going to reply to dte's last post, as I do have several arguemtents that would justify a scale from 0-5 imo, but MC's suggestion regarding the perspective effectively took the wind out of my sails. I'm fine with naming the view directly. However, there's too much options right now, respectively the options are unclear. If a game is ISO, for instance, it cannot be BIRD at the same time, and where is the difference between TOP and EYE? That's why I originally combined all distant perspectives in "TOP", which is really sufficient in my opinion. Some examples that all have a rather distant view:
* Diablo (2) is fixed isometric. Not bird's eye.
* Warcraft has a fixed bird's eye view.
* NWN seems to have a flexible and zoomable bird's eye view..
* BG has a fixed top-down view? Or bird's eye? Or isometric?
Anyway, the problem with these perspectives is that they lack definition.


Then, I must strongly oppose the Graphics category!

~Wheter we RPG-lovers like it not, there are players out there that regards graphic quality very high on the need to have list, and to oppose your fair demands about timeless information, we could add an year after the graphic score.~

At the risk of repeating myself.. Graphics are subjective! If we were to give a game points for it's graphics, we would make a direct and biased statement about it's quality, and were no better than so many dreadful reviewers. 2D? Baaaad, so the whole game must be baaaad (Divinity in various German game magazines). Full of 3D features? Spleeeendid, so the whole game must be spleeeendid (Dungeon Siege). Adding years to the rating wouldn't help much either, because everything would still be cluttered with random numbers. A game with 4 points from 1997 next to a game with 4 points from 2002 next to a game with 5 points from 2001.. There is no relation, it's all too wishy-washy, too much chaos.
Besides, if we rate graphics, we should also rate sound (which I personally find more important than gfx), gameplay, and most of all the Overall Fun Value. In any case, those should be put into some tertiary category, because they have IMHO nothing to do with the system. If it was for me, I would just provide a link to an ordinary review somewhere on the net...

What makes the core system unique and so utterly interesting in my opinion, is that it does not make a statement about how good or bad a game is compared to others. It can be used to make a practical list of games where it is - unlike in reviews - solely the player who decides what he prefers. Graphics just don't fit into this system.


PLAYSTYLE looks ok, although Diablo 2 is not a Massive Multiplayer game, since it only supports 8 players in the same session.

MC: ~Hidden X: Your suggestions to "Difficulty" category are quite funny and could actually do the job, however I guess I will keep my a (bit more serious ) suggestions, if not too many argue against it.~
Heh, actually I've been the only one arguing against it a bit so far, but anyway, some more :
Your Difficulty category is not about the difficulty I would expect. It mostly focuses on the interface and controls, i.e. it only states whether the player has to read the manual or not. This is, to some degree also part of the overall difficulty, like when a player who has never heard of RPGs before has to play an AD&D game. However, I think difficulty is more about the 'real' challenges you face in a game, which is actually included in HiddenX's "gameplay difficulty". Does the game provide tactical challenges during combat? Does it trigger your brain cells with sophisticated puzzles? Do you have to be careful? Do you have to know a whole lot of RPGs to be able to play the game?
That last question is the only one that kinda aims at the manual thingy, but the others are at least as important.


In conclusion, my opinion on the current secondary categories:
* Playstyle: ok
* Length: ok, although hard to judge - what if you don't know how many hours you played a game?
* Perspective: more or less ok, could use some tweaking
* Difficulty: needs tweaking
* Graphics: Throw it away!
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“Through the sounds of falling rain, through the clouds of bitter times
I see the pure grace of your smile, in dreams of the warmth in your eyes”
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Post Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:25 pm
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
The Elder Spy




Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany
   

Thanks Michael, here is my first rating:

***Divine Divinity***

Story: 3 (many many sidequests, but there's only one great path to play)
Character: 3
NPC: 3
Gameworld: 4
Manipulation: 3
Combat: 2

Graphics: 3 (2002)
Length: 4
Difficulty: 3
Style: Single player / Single character
Perspective: Isometric view

********************

RPG Score: A perfect 3 -> CRPG
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Post Mon Sep 16, 2002 5:25 pm
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Black Dragon




Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark
   

quote:
Originally posted by Arhu
Mmmm, I was just going to reply to dte's last post, as I do have several arguemtents that would justify a scale from 0-5 imo, but MC's suggestion regarding the perspective effectively took the wind out of my sails. I'm fine with naming the view directly. However, there's too much options right now, respectively the options are unclear. If a game is ISO, for instance, it cannot be BIRD at the same time, and where is the difference between TOP and EYE? That's why I originally combined all distant perspectives in "TOP", which is really sufficient in my opinion. Some examples that all have a rather distant view:
* Diablo (2) is fixed isometric. Not bird's eye.
* Warcraft has a fixed bird's eye view.
* NWN seems to have a flexible and zoomable bird's eye view..
* BG has a fixed top-down view? Or bird's eye? Or isometric?
Anyway, the problem with these perspectives is that they lack definition.

My answer: First of all "Eye" is as I decribed it the 1.st person view, where we gamers look out of the eyes of our character(s). "Top" is the viewpoint, where you from the sky look vertical down on the gameworld (top-down). I considered your arguements regarding "Bird" view an I agree that other categories covers that ("Isometric"(ISO), and "Top-down"(TOP)), so I suggest we drop the "BIRD" definition.

EX:
Diablo 2 : Perspective: FIX-ISO
Warcarft III: Perspective: ZOOM-ISO
NWN: Perspective: ZOOM-ISO
BGII: Perspective: FIX-ISO
Summoner: ZOOM-HEAD/ ZOOM-ISO.


Then, I must strongly oppose the Graphics category!

At the risk of repeating myself.. Graphics are subjective! If we were to give a game points for it's graphics, we would make a direct and biased statement about it's quality, and were no better than so many dreadful reviewers. 2D? Baaaad, so the whole game must be baaaad (Divinity in various German game magazines). Full of 3D features? Spleeeendid, so the whole game must be spleeeendid (Dungeon Siege). Adding years to the rating wouldn't help much either, because everything would still be cluttered with random numbers. A game with 4 points from 1997 next to a game with 4 points from 2002 next to a game with 5 points from 2001.. There is no relation, it's all too wishy-washy, too much chaos.
Besides, if we rate graphics, we should also rate sound (which I personally find more important than gfx), gameplay, and most of all the Overall Fun Value. In any case, those should be put into some tertiary category, because they have IMHO nothing to do with the system. If it was for me, I would just provide a link to an ordinary review somewhere on the net...

What makes the core system unique and so utterly interesting in my opinion, is that it does not make a statement about how good or bad a game is compared to others. It can be used to make a practical list of games where it is - unlike in reviews - solely the player who decides what he prefers. Graphics just don't fit into this system.

My Answer: I'm not particular interested in that category in CRPG's too, but missing it totally would IMHO give many gamers a unanswered question when they see our conclussion. I agree we try not to tell, if a game is particular good or not, just how much of each category is in the game. I try using resolutions, and comparison with todays standards to give a picture of it's graphic capacity. Putting a "Year" behind the score makes it more comparable on the timeline. A Score 4 (2002) is way better than 4 (1998), as the development on the graphic side probably is obvious. I don't think that this would confuse most people though. I agree that "taste" can have to big a importanse on the score, and not in spirit with the rest of the system, but somehow I think we should mention something about the graphics as it is a major topic for many gamers.
Regarding Sound system, yes it's important too, so how do we make a system for that???



PLAYSTYLE looks ok, although Diablo 2 is not a Massive Multiplayer game, since it only supports 8 players in the same session.

My answer: Sorry for my misguiding information.

MC: ~Hidden X: Your suggestions to "Difficulty" category are quite funny and could actually do the job, however I guess I will keep my a (bit more serious ) suggestions, if not too many argue against it.~
Heh, actually I've been the only one arguing against it a bit so far, but anyway, some more :
Your Difficulty category is not about the difficulty I would expect. It mostly focuses on the interface and controls, i.e. it only states whether the player has to read the manual or not. This is, to some degree also part of the overall difficulty, like when a player who has never heard of RPGs before has to play an AD&D game. However, I think difficulty is more about the 'real' challenges you face in a game, which is actually included in HiddenX's "gameplay difficulty". Does the game provide tactical challenges during combat? Does it trigger your brain cells with sophisticated puzzles? Do you have to be careful? Do you have to know a whole lot of RPGs to be able to play the game?
That last question is the only one that kinda aims at the manual thingy, but the others are at least as important.

My answer: As I stated in version 0.4, "Difficulty" category is both: Interface and game complexity, I also think that those issues have some importanse on each other.


In conclusion, my opinion on the current secondary categories:
* Playstyle: ok
* Length: ok, although hard to judge - what if you don't know how many hours you played a game?
* Perspective: more or less ok, could use some tweaking
* Difficulty: needs tweaking
* Graphics: Throw it away!


My answer: Regarding "Lenght". Some of us actually record our time spending on a game, so somehow I'm confident that we get this information!
Regarding "Perspective": I removed the "BIRD" definition in the version 0.4 in a the poster above.
Regarding difficulty: I'm not sure there you want to tweek it further??? I already included both interface and game complexity!
Regarding Graphics: WE NEED MORE OPINIONS, Arhu and I do not agree and seems stucked! So you lurkers and etc. it's time for your opinions!

Instead of making a hole new post with the new tweeks in the system, I "Edit" in the latest version 0.4

@Hidden X: So you resolved Divinity on the system: Did it make sense, and did you find the system fair and not to difficult to find the correct score???
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Post Tue Sep 17, 2002 8:53 am
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
The Elder Spy




Joined: 20 Jul 2001
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Michael C:
I had only difficulties with STORY, maybe Divine Divinty is a 2.5 in this category. We should ask Arhu the cat about it.

to DIFFICULTY: Game difficulty has often nothing to do with the complexity/difficulty of the manual in my opinion, so here i am more on Arhu's side.
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Post Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:06 am
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Michael C
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quote:
Originally posted by HiddenX
Michael C:
I had only difficulties with STORY, maybe Divine Divinty is a 2.5 in this category. We should ask Arhu the cat about it.

to DIFFICULTY: Game difficulty has often nothing to do with the complexity/difficulty of the manual in my opinion, so here i am more on Arhu's side.


Okay lets see the demands for "3" points in story, which equalize the minimum demands for a story to have "normal" "RPG-elements".

Medium: 3 points:
-The story develops as the game proceeds,
-Events impact on the story are considerable,
-The gamers actions have considerable impact on the development of the story.
-More than one path is possible in the ”main” story.

-Does Divinity's story not develop as the game proceeds??? I guess so!
- Does events (NPC's or other happenings) have considerable impact on development of the story! I guess so!
- Does gamers action have considerable impact on developing the story! I guess so!
- Is there more than on path possible in the "Main story" (Not necessarily more different endings, just different ways to reach the end. I don't no, have only playe the demo! But is it here it fails??? Is the story line strictly have one path????, Is more than one path's to much to ask for getting the "RPG" score in story, and should it instead be in the "More" frame???

Regarding Difficulty: I'm not refering to how difficult the "manual" is to read in it self. I'm refering to that it can be necessary to read the manual, to understand the gameconcepts (Like how to cast /use spells /skills /combat item's NPC's etc., this is in it self is a factor of how difficult/complex a game is to play IMHO. But okay we may need an issue that also describes the toughness of quests/riddles/battles etc. I will have to think a little about this!

Regarding Graphics: Arhu and I don't agree on the necessarity of the Graphics category, what's your opinion???
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Post Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:24 am
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Michael C
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Okay if we say that the "Manipulation" category covers the complexity of "what to do in the world" then we could let the "Difficulty" category just describe the in-game difficulty of riddles/quests/combat etc. And also forget about how good the "interface" is made!

Suggestion:

DIFFICULTY:

0 points: No brain teasers at all, only walk /run and hack 'n slash
1 point: Easy brain teasers that don't slow the game pace down considerable.
2 points: Some problems (Riddles, events, combat, NPC's etc) can make you stop for a short while until you find the relative easy solution!
3 Points: Not all problems are obvious in solution, but there are more posibilities to get help. The amount of problems must also be considerable.
4 Points: Some problems can't be solved without help/things from other places or without some in vain tries first!
5 Points: The game is loaded with more or less hard problems, and many problems can only be solved by extensive brain use!
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Last edited by Michael C on Tue Sep 17, 2002 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Tue Sep 17, 2002 11:56 am
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HiddenX
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your new DIFFICULTY category is better.

I like the idea of graphics included as an extra category with a short objective description and the year of the game release.
Graphics in general are not soooo important for rpgs IMHO, but i know many other gamers with a great interest in graphics.
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Ariel
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MC: ~I considered your arguements regarding "Bird" view an I agree that other categories covers that ("Isometric"(ISO), and "Top-down"(TOP)), so I suggest we drop the "BIRD" definition.~
Heh, if you do it like that, I would leave ISO and BIRD, and drop TOP. ISO is a clearly defined perspective, all dimensions are "equal in length", and per se fixed. There is no real "depth", objects that are 'far away' look as large as objects that are 'near'. Bird's eye view, I think, is seen from atop, but still a real 3D perspecive where far away objects are smaller than close objects. Dungeon Siege, for instance, is definitely not isometric... Your examples revised:

Diablo II: ISO-FIX
Warcraft III: BIRD-FIX (ZOOM? You sure you can zoom the camera in? Didn't know that..)
NWN: BIRD-ZOOM (I thought you could also turn the camera? Don't know though, since I don't have the game)
BGII: ISO-FIX (it's a 2D map after all)
Summoner: (HEAD/BIRD)-ZOOM

Mmm, I find the names a bit unclear, like, flex could also mean "turnable camera" or eye could mean "bird's eye view".. How about these changes:
* remove TOP, include BIRD (see above)
* remove FLEX. It's not really necessary anyway. If you can change the perspective in a game, we can simply write something like "BIRD/HEAD".
* rename EYE to FP or something similar. I always confuse Eye with Bird's eye view, and "First Person" is common standard.
* rename ZOOM to DYNAMIC, because it can also include a turnable camera.
* mix BACK with HEAD (is there really that great a difference between those two?)


One more comment regarding Graphics - did you guys consider that not only games get old, but that even the category is bound to get obsolete in the future? There was a time when 320x200 was top-notch and the highest standard in games' resolutions. Then came SVGA with a maximum resolution of 640x480. ... Even if you include a year in the Graphics rating, a system like this can only be shaped after today's standards. What of, say, 2012? Maybe 1600x1200 is a minimum resolution then, maybe resolutions become totally insignificant and only other features play a major role? Do you want to adjust the criteria every few years to accommodate present standards?

My point is: All other categories are pretty much set in stone and applicable for past and future games, but there simply is no objective (and timeless!) criterium for technology. Every usual review rating standard is shaped after a relatively small time frame and equally fragile. SFX quality, for example, can only be measured against other games and the currently available technology. The gameplay of one game may be revolutionary at one time, but soon others will follow or even expand on the basic gameplay.
I stand firm. Players who are interested in the graphics of a game can go ahead and read a contemporary review, or look at some screenshots.

The only way to make this work more or less IMHO, is to disregard a rating scale for Graphics, and instead use 'technology bits' to describe directly what is available (max resolution, supported 3d standard etc.), similar to the current Perspective category. Then all we might have to do in the future is to invent new names for new achievements. We must be careful, though, not to induce some sort of information overload.
Anyway, this could possibly also settle our little dispute.


HiddenX: Divine Divinity
Story: 3 (many many sidequests, but there's only one great path to play)
Character: 3
NPC: 3
Gameworld: 4
Manipulation: 3
Combat: 2


Could you also give a reason for why you rated the different categories like you did? I agree with your evalutation except for Manipulation. I would give Divinity a perfect 5 score here, because there's so much you can touch and move and use... (some small examples: you can steal some straw from a field, take it to a nifty spot in a park and make a bed out of it; you can wear pots on your head; you can brew potions with herbs you find in the world; move crates to reveal a trap door; augment your weapons with poison or charms). Also, subquests of NPCs are plenty and often build on the interactivity of the world.

MC: ~Is there more than on path possible in the "Main story" (Not necessarily more different endings, just different ways to reach the end.~
Could you elaborate on that? (Sub) Quests are as unlinear as the world you walk through, basically you can do them in any order imaginable, or just skip them. The main story quests are similar to Baldur's Gate I think. What exactly do you mean with "different ways to reach the end"? Maybe you could change this point to more include the amount of optional quests? Dunno.

Btw, I would welcome some examples in "-Events impact on the story are considerable", or examples for "events".
Oh, and what exactly is meant with "-Not item / combat related actions are considerable. " (Story 3)?


As for Difficulty, yup, the new system is better.
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Post Tue Sep 17, 2002 4:39 pm
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HiddenX
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@Arhu:

Divine Divinity:

you are able to manipulate many things, but

a) these manipulations have no great impact on combat

b) only a few puzzles can be solved that way - healing stone etc.

c) no custom weapons/armors can be created


(look at Michael C's system MANIPULATION - 4 points)

so i can't give 5 points.


A example-game with 5 points in MANIPULATION is 'Evil Islands' for me.
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Post Tue Sep 17, 2002 5:44 pm
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Ariel
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a) Look closely :
-You can see /influence changes in the environment, or use it either to create/ manipulate things or get strategic possibilities in combat.
I admit that also stumbled over this requirement the first time.

b) This was more a bonus thought...

c) Mmmm.. dunno. What exactly is the definition of "Custom items"? Is
- applying poison to weaons to enhance their damage
- adding charms to weapons/armor to enhance their attributes
- creating all kinds of potions with herbs and combining herbs to create better potions
- making your own bed out of two straw piles to be able to sleep and regenerate all health points
- filling mugs with water/wine/beer, making honey etc.
not custom enough? (Repairing your own weapons doesn't count I guess, because they are still exactly the same weapons)
Does "custom items" only include weapons and armor?

I haven't played Evil Islands, so I can't comment on that...
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Post Tue Sep 17, 2002 6:47 pm
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