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Garrett
Joined: 13 Jul 2001
Posts: 74
Location: Munich, Germany |
| RPGDot Feature: Where Have All The (Great) CRPG’s Gone? – A |
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Our new editor limesix discusses the second RPG revolution and wonders, if it is already dead due to repetetive gameplay and no innovtions!<blockquote><em>A roundup: the Infinity engine games are, without exception, outstanding games. But they tread familiar ground (Torment excepted), and basically amount to exploiting a winning formula. Arcanum made some interesting advances (and was developed by people who created Fallout), and then effectively cancelled them out with a few fatal flaws - most notably the combat. Wizardry 8 is a fine game, but I've never played a RPG that forced you to follow a plot so closely. The combat is turn-based (my preference), but sluggish, and by several levels in, I dreaded a low level fight that would take me a half-hour. Neverwinter Nights is brilliantly executed from an interface standpoint, and it's very well designed, but it's the most linear RPG I've ever played, there's very little freedom or space to explore in, and I'm still slogging through it four months after I started. And Morrowind… I wanted to love it, and I almost do. I spent days just walking around and looking at the world, the sky, the water. The gameplay freedom, character creation and development, and graphics are unparalleled. But the conversation interface is so static, the combat simplistic, the NPC's stand around in the same places through rain, sandstorms, and the dead of night, and... well really, how many nearly identical caves can you wander into and still feel like exploring them all? All of that combines to work against the sense of immersion and reality created by the graphics and large gameworld.</em></blockquote>
<br><a href="http://www.rpgdot.com/index.php?hsaction=10053&ID=620">Click here to read the full article</a> |
Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:43 am |
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Saint
Guest
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U seem to have missed 2.
Greyhawk: TOEE
Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines
They are both developed by Troika ( who made Arcanum ). I think that they will end up being better than Lionheart. Im a big Black Isle but i fear ther latest realtime RPG for the masses trend.
In my opinion these are the 4 games that aer gonna slug it out for the years title:
Starwars: KOTOR
Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines
Greyhawk: TOEE
Lionheart |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 1:58 am |
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Guest
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RPGs are not dead! merely seriously wounded... good article and expresses my sentiments about my favorite genre. even though I disagree with your takes on certain games listed. like flight sims RPGs like Fallout are very hard to make and not many want to play them. simple market forces. (I'd actually pay big bucks for a 'hard core' rpg on the level of Fallout if that'd help keep this genre alive)
however, I'd hardly call KOTOR an RPG, more of a sword fighting game, just like NWN. judging by previews it's gonna be a linear adventure with a few cliched branches here and there. but you know it's gonna be the most visible because of the Star Wars license. Greyhawk and Bloodlines are gonna be good sellers becuase of all the Troika fans and I'm looking forward to those even tho I'm sick of D&D. Lionheart is a bleh for me, not even sure who's gonna be interested in anything from BIS these days in their current situation. Divine divinity was a surprise but the sequel is far off... yeah, pretty dry this year is gonna be (whoa I'm talking like Yoda already) |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:26 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
You want to talk about the death of RPGs? How about us "old-school RPG" fans? Those of us that think Might & Magic 6 and 7 is a pinnacle of gaming haven't had much to cheer about in years. Wizardry 8 (which you didn't care for, although I'd dispute your claim of being "quest-railroaded") is about the only entry in the sub-genre in years. And the future looks even worse. Gamers are more interested in "pretty water" graphics than gameplay. Gamers are more interested in multi-player than hundreds of engrossing solo hours. Gamers don't generally care for first person views anymore (Morrowind being the obvious exception). Gamers don't really care about complex character development anymore, particularly interactions amongst a party.
The RPG genre is slowly catering to the "short attention span" crowd. When a clickfest like Diablo is declared a top-notch RPG simply because you go up in levels, you've got to know something's wrong. It already happened in strategy games- when was the last time you saw an original, deep, turn-based game made, let alone sell well? It's all about RTS these days.
I hope games that require you to think and consider your actions (gameplay, people, gameply) will make a comeback. It seems that I've become a dinosaur in my own hobby, though.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:44 am |
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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
I think there's quite a few people looking forward to Lionheart. Why should they not buy the game (assuming it's good) just because of their publisher's financial position?
As for Troika's titles, they should be interesting. I'm a bit curious why Lionheart is "realtime RPG for the masses" but Troika's realtime FPS hybrid Bloodlines isn't just appealing to the masses too.
Broadly, I agree with everyone's comments - we need more old-school, deep, gameplay-driven RPGs. Please! |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 2:53 am |
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NeverDark
Village Leader
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 91
Location: Virtual Reality aka Life |
You can rarely expect good RPGs financed and/or produced by large companies these days. Making something innovative always involves fair amount of risk, and corporations aren't willing to risk their money if they know they can follow a well-torn path leading to a milking cow. Admit it, today's game productions is about making profit, not about expressing your ideas to the world  Backday's Blizzard hardly had any competitors, so they could shape their game in the way they liked it, producing a legend at the end (you may say that Diablo sucks now, but you gotta agree that it was a revolutionary back then).
Don't you find it hilarious that during almost ten years dozens of RPGs (including upcoming Lionheart) have red and blue spheres in their interfaces, representing health and mana respectively? It's always a sphere, and it's always either blue or red... just because Blizzard said so and made lots of money afterwards. |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:04 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
First off, if i seem rude or angry, i apologize. I am not angry, though i might be lacking in tact. So dont make this out as an attack on this editor. It is not. It is however a way that i can vent frustration to the world. If i am lucky, some meaningful discussion might be started here. I do not mean to offend.
You seem ungrateful and too tragically traditional. Your expectations of developers (who do this for money, not for you) and their projects is unrealistic. Perhaps you should find a few friends to play pen-and-paper with, because that is what every one of these traditionalists are hoping a computer game can supply them with: the adventure they got out of actually roleplaying in live games. Well, sorry to say, its not realistic and its never going to happen in a single-player environment. Why? Because developers are limited in two respects: time and money, both of which are expensive commodities and are the VERY REASON why we will never get the perfect crpg.
Again, traditionalists seem ungrateful for what they already have, and too expectant of what the perfect crpg game should be. If i went through life with as high expectations as these old-school traditionalists, no doubt i would be bitterly disappointed in my death bed. Get more optimistic, people!
What about the Gothics? Arx Fatalis? Left out? Why didnt you mention or play those? Especially considering that nearly everyone on this website adores them.
HERE BEGINS THE MMORPG RANT (OLD-SCHOOLERS: DO NOT READ!)
And what about online crpgs? Outright despised by most people on this website. I can count the amount of people here who actually enjoy online gaming on my digits.
I realize that mmorpgs are just beginning to turn in to worthy games. However, why do most of you dismiss future mmorpg projects because of incarnations of the past?
Is it the payment fee? The fees are for maintenance and ongoing development. What if a team of developers continued to build a Fallout game far into the future. If so, would you play Fallout Online? and would you play Planescape Online? How about Baldurs Gate Online, or Morrowind Online?
To those people i ask, Have you ever played online with actual PEOPLE before? Ever? You complain about static, uneventful, stupid NPCs in Morrowind. If you are desiring to interact with a believably intelligent character in your game, why not replace that dumby with a REAL person.
Are you guys anti-social or something? Is it because you are afraid of other people in general?
I understand the real answer. That most people here are devoted to single-player gaming because they want to feel important in the game -- they want to be the most important character in the game -- instead of actually devoting and working and earning the importance that must be done in online games and in the real world. Single-player games are less work, and more fun. But if you really want to interact with a believable world, YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE TO INCLUDE OTHER PEOPLE.
Did you know that playing with other players is FAR better than any artificial intelligence that will ever be made? Computers will never have the intelligence that most people possess (read the research, like the staple Minsky's Society of Mind, and the classic Why Computers Cant Think). I have done a few years of research in the field of artificial intelligence: enough to state that it is impossible with current technology. It will require nothing short of a miracle for artificial sentience to coexist with us.
Do you suppose that just because a few griefers might ruin your gameplay once in a while, that all people are like that in online games? True, there are jerks in online games. Jerks are everywhere. Welcome to the real world.
So, my point is this,
If you are so disappointed with single-player games, why dont you try administering an online category into your gaming schedule. I did, and even though i still play SP games like Morrowind, i have never looked back. The MMORPG future is coming. Just dont expect too much, because if you do, you are sure to become disappointed. |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:14 am |
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NeverDark
Village Leader
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 91
Location: Virtual Reality aka Life |
I kind of agree that single-player RPGs are seeing their final days, and will eventually be replaced by MMROPGS. It's the natural course of gaming evolution. But before that happens, someone finally has to realize that for a MMORPG to be a worthy substitution for CRPG, it has to have both gameplay and story, as opposed to gameplay alone. It warms my heart to see numerous expensive and ambitious products fail miserably profit-wise, because they chose to follow a formula instead of trying to come up with new ideas and try to deliver something not seen in other similar projects   (Eve, AC2, etc.)
And yes, give me Fallout Online with REAL quests, absence of exp treadmills, live team of in-game actors affecting the gaming universe, and I'll choose it over Fallout 1&2 any day.  |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:29 am |
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pianoplayer
Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhruin
I think there's quite a few people looking forward to Lionheart. Why should they not buy the game (assuming it's good) just because of their publisher's financial position?
...
okay, I was the 'Guest' above. well, they have to make lots of money with LH. that's all they have to sell. since they are in dire financial situation the have little lee-way. so, they MIGHT, just might have dumbed it down. a lot. I don't know if they have. I haven't played it. personally, I dispise real-time wiht pause, esp. in isometric games. but, that's not the point. all we can do is speculate. from what I've seen at gaming forums (and I don't hang around Internet that much) LH is a pretty low on people's wish lists, and most don't even know about it. and all talk about Bis/Iply immediately turns into bashing over the FO:BOS screw-up, crappy stock, bankrupcy, daft management, loss of talent, etc... I hope you guys at RPGDOT will review this title, and I might buy it.
anyway, this is going off-topic, I'll just say I wasn't bashing that game, just expressing my feelings on the situation. I'd be glad if it turns out to be great. I do want a great CRPG myself. from whatever company. |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:38 am |
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pianoplayer
Guest
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as far as MMORPG replacing CRPGs. no, not for me. I don't consider myself anti-social, but the last thing I want to do after coming home from work and arguing with people at home is to deal with all sorts of people whom I don't even know in the game. seeing some guy chat about the latest car he just bought over the game chat channel just kills the immersion immediately. and all of this, while paying monthly fees. I just prefer single player RPGs. even though I enjoyed playing several MUDs a few years back. go figure. |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:50 am |
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NeverDark
Village Leader
Joined: 07 Feb 2003
Posts: 91
Location: Virtual Reality aka Life |
quote:
Originally posted by pianoplayer
as far as MMORPG replacing CRPGs. no, not for me. I don't consider myself anti-social, but the last thing I want to do after coming home from work and arguing with people at home is to deal with all sorts of people whom I don't even know in the game. seeing some guy chat about the latest car he just bought over the game chat channel just kills the immersion immediately. and all of this, while paying monthly fees. I just prefer single player RPGs. even though I enjoyed playing several MUDs a few years back. go figure.
It's because of the way most of the modern MMORPGS are designed. Most of them are essentially nothing more than a virtual chat, for people to occasionally go on "hunting" in between "socializing". Games like AO have people dancing, taking their pictures during virtual parties, performing marriage ceremonies.... BAH! Geekdome!
It's because AO has no story and no practical means to force players into being a part of a story. In other words, there's no RPGing in AO. |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 3:59 am |
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Ammon777
Warrior for Heaven
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 2011
Location: United States |
AO stinks. never did like that one. AC was better. SWG is heaps better (im in beta). |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 4:56 am |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
quote:
Originally posted by pianoplayer
as far as MMORPG replacing CRPGs. no, not for me. I don't consider myself anti-social, but the last thing I want to do after coming home from work and arguing with people at home is to deal with all sorts of people whom I don't even know in the game. seeing some guy chat about the latest car he just bought over the game chat channel just kills the immersion immediately.
Bingo. This perfectly sums up my view on the whole MMORPG issue. I play games to escape from the world. I do not wanna go online play with "real" people. If I want things to be "real" I can leave my computer and pursue other outlets at any time.
Let me ask you this: how real are the people online anyway. You've got guys being girls, people putting on different personalites because they are behind the saftey of a keyboard, etc. Is that also reality? Screw that. Let me keep my fantasy. Give me my single player gaming.
About the only multiple player thing that IS fun is LAN parties where you are in the vicinity of your buddies having a good time. All this faceless gaming is BS in my opinion.
EDIT:
Okay, let me update some of my thoughts. Amon777, I DO know that online games are not supposed to represent reality and the people there are role playing their characters (in a well behaved scenario). I also realize that YES, a computer AI will never compete will a flesh and blood human.
But -- here comes the kicker. It doesn't really concern me. When I play, I don't mind a challenge but eventually I like to win. Because it is my fantasy. My game.. My computer.
And Dteowner, you are NOT alone. I am an old-schooler as well. Started gaming in the ealry 80s. And for the record, I actually think Might and Magic VI played a huge part in bringing us out of the early 90s drought. It's what started me gaming again after a lenghty hiatus. And all is not lost as Gothic and Wizardy 8 have so successfully demonstrated.
_________________
All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras
Last edited by elkston on Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:21 am |
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TheMadGamer
High Emperor
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 487
Location: Southern California |
First and foremost, good article. You articulate your point quite well and in many respects I can, at the very least, see your point of view.
But that's where we part ways.
Like yourself, I've been around a long time. You know, the days of the Apple and Alkebeth and so on.
I think Ammon777 summed it up pretty well (with regard to the pre-MMORPG stuff he said).
Your article, well, sorta reads like a spoiled child who is endlessly cynical about all the luxuries he is surrounded by, never realizing that just a few thousand miles in any direction, people are being bombed, living in mud huts, and trying to keep from dying from that infection that was caused by that river of sewage that runs right across their front door (if they even have a front door).
Like yourself, a few games really captured my imagination. For me, it wasn't fallout (though fallout was excellent) as much as it was the Ultima series. For the next guy, it's something else.
And as time moves forward, it's natural to look to new games that capture your imagination like some past game did.
But after having gone through the CRPG drought of the mid-90s, I'm just happy that there are so many CRPG games to choose from - kinda like that third-world-country person who starved through much of his childhood is just grateful to be alive, and happy to eat that Denny's American Slam even though he found a hair in it.
You can always find the flaws in anything. As a game reviewer and commenter, it's part of your job to point out the flaws of a game and that is understandable. But that doesn't necessarily need to be the case as a game player.
To NeverDark:
I don’t think at all that we are seeing the end of single player CRPGs. And I wonder why it seems like it’s a ‘natural evolution’ to you. Saying that would be like saying that movies are going to replace television – it’s the natural evolution. I think there will always be a place for single player CRPGs. Like a good book, it’s nice sometimes to unplug from the masses and crawl into your own little universe.
To Ammon777:
Some of what you said about MMORPGs I disagree with. True, in MMORPGs, especially with the 'high end' game, you have to earn your place with real people and that can be quite fun and challenging.
But just because the next day you might feel like having apple pie instead of cherry pie for desert, followed by a nice session of Morrowind instead of Everquest, doesn't necessarily mean that one is emotionally unstable and therefore must retreat into the realm of a CRPG to find his happy place.
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The Poster Previously Known As NeptiOfPovar |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 5:29 am |
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methusala
Tempered Warlord
Joined: 06 Jun 2003
Posts: 281
Location: Odinwald |
The fact of the matter is that the game-makers will make what the game-players will except.As far as I can see,the game-players are willing to except and tolerate alot of second rate material.I'm also a SWG beta tester and that game leaves alot to be desired. The reason it will be a success is not because it is a great mmorpg,it is because people are blinded by the "Star Wars"idea coming to their pc's.I am also an older player who has seen the beginning of the rpg and its progression and I have one word of advice to other older players. Every generation believes that their "golden age"and the products there-in were the best and the games being put out now are not as good. The fact is,the games now are just different and like with any evolutionary phase,its a matter of trial and error.The bottom line and the point I'm trying to make is this,"demand the best for your money and don't except anything less". |
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Tue Jun 17, 2003 6:26 am |
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