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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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| The Game Works! (and a newbie perspective on Wiz 8) |
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OK, I was so excited I put this in a new message (see Arnika My Buttocks for full story)! But anyway, after having started a new game, I finally made it to Arnika and Myles and the Higardi are on speaking (and not homicidal) terms with me! It really must have been a corrupted save when I went through the first time, because I did nothing different the 2nd time. But I did notice that Altheides talked to me this time, whereas before he was just as silent and still as a statue (yes I got up to within talking range both times).
So anyway, thanks to everyone who tried to help in the prev. message; this looks like a challenging and (most of the time) fun game. One issue I have with it is that virtually every single battle is a long, drawn out affair that takes upwards of 5-10 minutes. And a lot of 'em are quite challenging, which means I have to spend a lot of mana, which means I must rest after 2-3 fights, which is hard to do in between safe points (I LOVE He'Li's inn  . For me, I think my best solution is just to run away or past the red dots on radar, and hope for the best, esp. when not in town.
One other kinda annoying thing is that most of the enemies seem to level up with your characters; what's the point of growing more powerful if everyone else is too? At some points, I think I'm getting relatively less powerful, maybe because that one level gain didn't help me all that much, but triggered a significantly more difficult random monster set.
Oh well.
It looks like it's gonna be a bloody long ride (and I do mean bloody .
Cheers
Wind |
Sun Jul 14, 2002 9:51 am |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
| Re: The Game Works! (and a newbie perspective on Wiz 8) |
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quote:
Originally posted by Windwalking
One other kinda annoying thing is that most of the enemies seem to level up with your characters; what's the point of growing more powerful if everyone else is too? At some points, I think I'm getting relatively less powerful, maybe because that one level gain didn't help me all that much, but triggered a significantly more difficult random monster set.
Oh well.
It looks like it's gonna be a bloody long ride (and I do mean bloody
This is the autoleveler in action. As you get better level-wise, the monsters get tougher, regardless of what area you're in. For every area, there are minimum and maximum creatures you will encounter. i.e. You will never find a deathlord in the monastery, but don't even think about wandering into the Rapax areas with a level 5 party (not that you could get there so easily, but you get my point). Dteowner & I (and plenty of other people) had a long thread on the best way to try to beat the autoleveler which led to 2 conclusions: 1) You really can't; 2) The best way to try is to increase your skills without increasing levels, such as by casting a lot of noncombat spells as often as possible; rest as needed; repeat (and note that casting something like heal wounds on a person who isn't wounded will NOT improve your stats).
Long? Matter of perspective. Sir-Tech says 80-100 hours. 80-150 seems more likely. Then there is replay potential - areas you missed or skipped, new races and classes, different NPCs, etc.
Bloody? Yes. No way around it. And there is no way to turn off the blood.
And CONGRATULATIONS on getting it working.
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 1:31 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I'm glad it's working out for you this time thru. As for your concerns:
1) While the autoleveler will make sure the game doesn't get too easy and boring, I always found that once my crew got around level 15, the battles were no longer "life or death" unless I made a tactical error (plus, by that time, you'll be better able to deal with those times when one of your crew becomes "existence challenged"). Note that the game will give you plenty of chances to make tactical errors....
2) I think that the Arnika Road is probably the biggest mismatch between monsters and characters. Most everybody has some trouble getting from the monestary to Arnika. I think Sir-Tech wanted you to reach a certain level by the time you got to Arnika (level 7 IIRC), and toughening up the competition was the only way to avoid making the road wall-to-wall rats.
Glad you're on your way. Should you hit any bumps in the road, feel free to ask.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Sun Jul 14, 2002 2:24 pm |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
2) I think that the Arnika Road is probably the biggest mismatch between monsters and characters. Most everybody has some trouble getting from the monestary to Arnika. I think Sir-Tech wanted you to reach a certain level by the time you got to Arnika (level 7 IIRC), and toughening up the competition was the only way to avoid making the road wall-to-wall rats.
Glad you're on your way. Should you hit any bumps in the road, feel free to ask.
Heh, I think that Trynton has some pretty big mismatches between characters and monsters; the friggin Leaf Sprites decimate my party 3 outta 4 times. If they have any range on me at all, my party (level 8-9) is as good as dead; it seems like the only time I can beat them is when my party is up close and personal. The only defense I can use against them is Element Shield, but sometimes one of their "Crush" or other spells can kill my mage in one hit, and it's restart time. Spells don't work because after they cast Eye for an Eye, my party ends up taking more damage/status effects than the sprites do!
It really just doesn't make sense to me that an established CITY is infested with so many monsters. Come on, where is the reprieve? And I notice that the Trynnie Patrols all DIE or run away when matched up with Leaf Sprites. How come the population isn't decimated then? Having monsters out on the open road is one thing, but it really just doesn't make sense in a heavily patrolled city...
One other thing; the patrols don't engage the hostiles unless I'm engaged in combat. It's kinda unrealistic seeing the Trynton Patrol waltz right past the monsters with no incident, until I come in, and THEN they start fighting. And in general, NPCs don't react to things except in scripted events; I can open an NPCs chest with all their life savings (and ID Card!) in it, and they won't bat an eyelash...
The game is fun and challenging, but these flaws really detract from the pacing and atmosphere of the game. After playing games like Gothic and Baldur's Gate II (where the atmosphere and NPCs are much better developed), Wizardry 8 is a big disappointment in this regard...
But I'll keep playing, because it is an overall good game
- Wind |
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:01 am |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
Sir-Tech said somewhere on it's boards that it expected parties to be about level 10 (or more) when they get to Trynton. So it seems like your party may be a little ahead of where they should be. General rule from Sir-Tech: If you get into an area that's too tough for you now, leave and come back later. (They said this with regard to Deathlords, should you happen to encounter before your party is level 14+, but it's applicable anywhere.)
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 3:46 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I feel your pain. An old thread of mine:
http://www.rpgdot.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4903
As for the realism, think of it this way: The Trynnie and the critters that live in the trees are used to each other and live together well enough until some outsider shows up clanging around and beating up the children. Sorta like the old folks at the park that feed the squirrels- everyone's content until the skateboarders show up and then nobody's happy... 
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=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 4:53 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon
Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
We complain about tough and numerous fights, but I think it's also whats make this game interesting every step you take. You just don't walk careless in the middle of the street (in the beginning anyway), you have to be on your toes to stay alive, and that's sort of consuming you into the game.
Sure the "random encounter" monsters get tougher than you level up, but not in the same rate as your characters, so don't worry. In the beginning it's much about survival, and after level 13-15 you will go more for the quests, and the tough areas and it will be rewarding to see your characters be able to handle the random encounters a lot easier later on.
From level 17-20 it's no longer an option of survival or not in the open areas, it's just earning extra exp. points, only "Boss" monsters will still could threaten your characters life, if you are careless!
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:22 am |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
I feel your pain. An old thread of mine:
http://www.rpgdot.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4903
As for the realism, think of it this way: The Trynnie and the critters that live in the trees are used to each other and live together well enough until some outsider shows up clanging around and beating up the children. Sorta like the old folks at the park that feed the squirrels- everyone's content until the skateboarders show up and then nobody's happy...
Uh, that would make sense except that the Trynnie and Sprites fight each other every time they're in the area during one of my fights (and they'll kill each other too). It's just a programming limitation that they can't show fights between non-player groups...
BTW, I still find it ridiculous that there are these heavy monsters within towns (the Savant in Arnika are fine, that's explained, but Trynton...). It just don't make sense, and given the respective strength of the two groups, there shouldn't be any Trynnies left alive in Trynton. Would it have been so hard to turn off the monster generator in places where it wouldn't make sense? I don't really mind that it's dangerous outdoors, but within te confines of a place like Trynton, a little bit of refuge would be a good constrast and would be good game design (heck, people may even start to miss the battles after a while).
Heh, and one more thing... Aren't sprites supposed to be peaceful little blokes? I guess they may be mad that their friends are locked up in a zoo...
- Wind |
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:12 am |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
quote:
Originally posted by Michael C
Sure the "random encounter" monsters get tougher than you level up, but not in the same rate as your characters, so don't worry. In the beginning it's much about survival, and after level 13-15 you will go more for the quests, and the tough areas and it will be rewarding to see your characters be able to handle the random encounters a lot easier later on.
From level 17-20 it's no longer an option of survival or not in the open areas, it's just earning extra exp. points, only "Boss" monsters will still could threaten your characters life, if you are careless!
As your party gets more powerful, when you wander back into the areas you've previously explored you'll find things easier. Michael C is right on here. You'll be questing and the monsters won't seem so bad. On the other hand, I think that as you continue to explore new areas, the monsters will continue to initially be tough (although mostly not life threatening). When you get towards the end of the game, even the random encounters in the Rapax areas and on Ascension Peak (endgame) are tough.
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 1:43 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
quote:
Originally posted by Windwalking
Uh, that would make sense except that the Trynnie and Sprites fight each other every time they're in the area during one of my fights (and they'll kill each other too). It's just a programming limitation that they can't show fights between non-player groups...
BTW, I still find it ridiculous that there are these heavy monsters within towns (the Savant in Arnika are fine, that's explained, but Trynton...). It just don't make sense, and given the respective strength of the two groups, there shouldn't be any Trynnies left alive in Trynton. Would it have been so hard to turn off the monster generator in places where it wouldn't make sense? I don't really mind that it's dangerous outdoors, but within te confines of a place like Trynton, a little bit of refuge would be a good constrast and would be good game design (heck, people may even start to miss the battles after a while).
Heh, and one more thing... Aren't sprites supposed to be peaceful little blokes? I guess they may be mad that their friends are locked up in a zoo...
- Wind
OK, let me try once more.
First, right now you're probably seeing Trynnie Patrols, also known to most of the ecosystem as "food". Later on, you'll be introduced to Trynnie Champions, who favor Sprites with pickles and mustard. In the end, it balances out, just like in nature.
For the combat issues, try this analogy on for size: think of a bowl of water cooking over a campfire. You've got two opposed entities in close proximity without any ugliness. Now, say Joe Camper comes along and wants to make coffee. In the process, he upends the bowl- now our formerly content entities are trying to kill each other due to outside influence. Similarly, if Joe Camper gets burned by the fire or the water, you end up with a fracas.
Last, sprites are usually characterized as nice but mischievious. Perhaps they think you're upset about that little Exlax-in-the-cocoa thing they did last time you camped...
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 8:09 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
Windwalking:
Sprites have no chance in hand to hand combat, get close as fast as you can. Level 7/8 is a bit low for Trynton - set the difficulty level to Novice.
General Advice: Learn the Blinding Flash spell if you have difficulties in combat.
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 10:08 pm |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by HiddenX
Windwalking:
Sprites have no chance in hand to hand combat, get close as fast as you can. Level 7/8 is a bit low for Trynton - set the difficulty level to Novice.
General Advice: Learn the Blinding Flash spell if you have difficulties in combat.
Well now I'm at levels 9-10 and the leaf sprites are still mauling me (they always get initiative, and if they cast attack spells right off the bat, one of my members usually dies in the initial round... Their crush spell takes off 30-65 damage...). It's gotten to the point that I just avoid them at all costs. Sometimes if I see them, I run away, camp for 8 hours, and try again. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't 
BTW, I do use status changing spells like Insanity, Freeze Flesh, and the powders like Flash Powder, but with regards to sprites, I can never use them in time (before Eye for an Eye), or they have little effect (1 out of 6 gets afflicted). I haven't gotten Blinding Flash spell yet; is that alchemy? Anyway, a group of 5-6 Leaf Sprites are by far the most difficult creatures I've encountered (maybe Oak Saplings, too...), even though other critters can have 10 times the HP. And I do charge the sprites, except my party is webbed, blinded, or dead by the time I get in there
I really don't have that many problems with the combat other than them; I do have to reload occasionally (usually when my mage dies), but I almost always get other beasts on the 2nd or 3rd try. I have a feeling that heavy magic-using creatures will be the bane of my party, at least until I get heavy resistance spells (which is the best magic resistance for party spell?)
BTW, I feel like I'm kinda playing like a lame-o, because I always reload if a single member dies; the ressurection stuff is too expensive for more than 4-5 ressurects, at this point in the game.
But oh well, it's on to the Rattkin Tree
- WIndwalking |
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:31 pm |
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Windwalking
Fearless Paladin
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 227
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quote:
Originally posted by dteowner
OK, let me try once more.
First, right now you're probably seeing Trynnie Patrols, also known to most of the ecosystem as "food". Later on, you'll be introduced to Trynnie Champions, who favor Sprites with pickles and mustard. In the end, it balances out, just like in nature.
For the combat issues, try this analogy on for size: think of a bowl of water cooking over a campfire. You've got two opposed entities in close proximity without any ugliness. Now, say Joe Camper comes along and wants to make coffee. In the process, he upends the bowl- now our formerly content entities are trying to kill each other due to outside influence. Similarly, if Joe Camper gets burned by the fire or the water, you end up with a fracas.
Last, sprites are usually characterized as nice but mischievious. Perhaps they think you're upset about that little Exlax-in-the-cocoa thing they did last time you camped...
Hehe, now that's what I call preemptive homicidal assumption, right there... It's like saying that I think that guy gave me a dirty look because I checked out his wife, and so I should kill him because he might do something to me later
As for the bowl of water + fire analogy, it doesn't float, because why would the Trynnies fight the sprites if I was there if they get along otherwise. In other words, why does my presence change their relationship, even though it really changes nothing else (and certainly doesn't affect it the way Joe Camper does). Their physical proximity is the same, and they really have no reason to join battle if they got a peace thing going...
And the same thing happens in Arnika, too, where the Savant and Higardi are SUPPOSED to be in see-them-kill-them conflict. Yet when they pass each other on the street, they don't fight. Only when I'm in combat range do they fight.
But it was a good try at explaining this limitation
- Windwalking
- Windwalking |
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Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:38 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy
Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
Blinding Flash: Alchemist Spellbook Level 2, together with Soul Shield, Magic Screen, Elemental Shield and Heal All the most useful spell.
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Tue Jul 16, 2002 8:31 am |
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Bilbo
High Emperor
Joined: 12 Mar 2002
Posts: 1620
Location: New York |
In reality, would the groups fight without us present, yes.
But let's do a reality check from Sir-Tech's point of view. If they fight when we're not there, then when we get there there's only 1 side left (either Trynnies or sprites, whoever wins). We miss out on seeing one set of these people. NPCs are possibly doing our dirty work for us without us even asking. And we have an unbalanced scenario either way: either we have no one to fight, or we have no one to help us in our fights. These are the real reasons the groups don't fight without us.
And if you're constantly getting beaten up by sprites, walk around with the Trynnies as much as possible. Use them as the cannon fodder until you're stronger.
_________________
The world itself shifts and changes and fades to mist like the strings of a minstrel's harp, and mayhap the dreams we forge are more enduring than the works of kings and gods.-Robert E. Howard
=Member of the RPGDot Shadows, The Nonflamers' Guild, and The Alliance of Middle Earth= |
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Tue Jul 16, 2002 1:36 pm |
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