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dteowner
Shoegazer

Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I'm sorry I've kinda dropped out on this discussion- RL is kicking my butt at the moment. I agree with everybody that the new DIFFICULTY definitions are much better.
I think Arhu's refinements to the VIEW group are good, although I'd combine "back" and "head" into the more commonly used "shoulder".
I think Arhu is trying a little too hard to make the GRAPHICS definitions something that will last forever. While that's usually a good idea, I don't see where it would be bad to use the definitions as they stand and then revise them 5 years from now to reflect the state-of-the-art of the time.
Sorry, gotta run. Keep up the good work, guys. I'll try to do my part as soon as I can. _________________ =Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
Tue Sep 17, 2002 7:32 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy

Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
@Arhu
you have convinced me - it is always good to have at least 2 opinions for being objective. (and I have read the 'or' as an 'and' )
***Divine Divinity***
Story: 3 (many many sidequests, but there's only one great path to play)
Character: 3
NPC: 3
Gameworld: 4
Manipulation: 5
Combat: 2
**********************
RPG Score: 3.33 -> CRPG
**********************
Graphics: 3 (2002)
Perspective: Isometric view
Length: 4
Difficulty: 3
Style: Single player / Single character
Similar Games: Ultima 7 _________________ =Member of The Nonflamers' Guild= |
Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:03 pm |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel

Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
dte: Hehe, keep running, but don't run too far so you can come back sometimes! As for your graphics comment, well, I dream and I but try to realize my dreams or rather dream up new realities (note my title). That's why I can be very persistent at times.. My worthy opponent is Myrthos, the Destroyer of All Fun, who unfortunately lives up to his title and dissects everything to harsh reality slices. But I think that's a good combination - if we agree on a matter, that's gotta mean something! -, and even though I'd very much prefer if everyone agreed with my opinions, I do appreciate opposing arguments (like the ones everybody presented in this topic).
HiddenX: Yes, having more than one opinion for a rating is advantageous. I personally seem to interpret too much into everything occasionally, albeit such instances are of course only exceptions to the rule.
Okay, here are two more games for evaluation:
Deus Ex
Story: 2 (fixed story, some side quests, but always at least two different paths to take for each level)
Characters: 2 (can slowly develop skills and augmentations, social development towards other NPCs is very limited but noticable and affected by your actions)
NPCs: 2 (there are some different gangs and depending on whether you help or attack certain NPCs or gangs, they will help you or attack you in return, simply put)
Gameworld: 2 (some quest/story material from the gangs. You can choose one path in each level and leave out others by that.)
Manipulation: 2 (Several weapons and items, traps, keys, lockpicks etc. are available, but nothing more)
Combat: 4 (If you play a sneaky sniper or hacker, combat is a real challenge!)
RPG.factor: 2.33 ~> RPG (Now this is interesting. Pretty close to 'light' though.)
Some secondary categories: Difficulty - 3; Perspective - FP-FIX; Playstyle - SP-S/MP/OP?
(One question regarding play style: How do we distinguish between cooparative multiplayer and PvP? "MP-P" for coop and "MP-S" for PvP? Or should there be better identifiers? Deus Ex's multiplayer mode is deathmatch only, for instance. Diablo 2 is both coop and PvP.)
Realms of Arkania: Star Trail
Story: 3 (Kinda tough.. definitely more than 2. I think all point 3 requirements are fulfilled, but I have some trouble projecting them on the game. Could you make them a bit clearer, MC, i.e. add some examples?)
Characters: 4 (party of 6 members, 12 different races to choose from, loads of skills and spells to develop, only about 10 level-ups per character but with lots of skill points to distribute. Social impact on societies.. some examples would be nice here, as well. I'm a bit unsure in this regard.)
NPCs: 3 (each city is a real community with their own problems, so to speak, they act towards you as their status demands of them, but dialogues are very basic)
Gameworld: 5 (different societies like dwarves, humans, even orcs; all make sense; you can go wherever you want, whenever you want, there are mountains, swamps, cities, woods, dungeons; day & night, seasons, a full calendar, weather (during your travels))
Manipulation: 4 (almost 5, but I didn't feel like getting 'tons' of assignments from NPCs, only a moderate amount. Alchemists and herbalists are in heaven, though)
Combat: 5 (RPG chess!)
RPG.factor: 4.00 ~> RPG Heavy (Barely. What's astounding in this game is that so much is said with so little words, metaphorically speaking.)
Some secondary categories: Difficulty - 3, maybe 4 for beginners?; Perspective - FP-FIX/ISO-FIX (peculiar mix: cities & dungons in FP, combats in ISO, travelling on a 2D map); Playstyle - SP-P
Well. Could anyone who played one or both of these games give them a shot, too? Difficulties I encountered were mostly in Star Trail - often I didn't really know what to make of the requirements or how they were presented in the game... _________________ “Through the sounds of falling rain, through the clouds of bitter times
I see the pure grace of your smile, in dreams of the warmth in your eyes” - Tim North |
Wed Sep 18, 2002 2:50 am |
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dteowner
Shoegazer

Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
This is getting really good, gents!
I'll take a swing at Deus Ex.
Story: 3 (you could almost go with a 4, but not quite)
Character: 3
NPCs: 3
World: 2
Manipulation: 2
Combat: 4
Which gives us an RPGFactor of 2.83
Graphics: 3
Length: n/a (I've always had lengthly breaks in the middle of the game where I play something else for a while, so I just don't know)
Difficulty: 3
Perspective: FIX/EYE
Edit: Well, it looks like we got different answers for categories 1 thru 3. Let me take another look at those.
Story: I think what swayed me was the way the game handled the survival/death of various NPCs at different stages of the game. I don't know, perhaps I've been overly generous.
Character: I'd bet the phrase "regular basis" is the source of our disagreement here. Since you can spend your points at any time and pick up augs about once per chapter, I thought that was enough to call "regular".
NPC's: Not sure which of the three criteria you thought didn't get met. _________________ =Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
Wed Sep 18, 2002 7:35 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon

Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Okay I'm about to make a considerable tweeking in the system and will very shortly post a new version.
I've read your last posts with big interest, and tweeked the system accordingly:
- Further explanations in the Story category added.
- Highlighted all "OR" and "AND".
- The Character category got more fixed numbers to determine words like "regular". Also further explanations are made in this category
- Manipulation Category: Custom items are explained, and now spread over two frames.
- Graphics category is changed a lot!
- Perspective category changed almost fully after Arhu's suggestions.
- Flushed the text through a spelling corrector (Not grammer corrector, I must here rely on the english experts among You). _________________ Moderator on RPGdot.com Forum.
Member of the Nonflamers guild.
Member of the Sport fan club. |
Wed Sep 18, 2002 9:32 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon

Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
VERSION 0.5
To determine if a game should apply to a certain level, all the mentioned demands must be fulfilled in that level and the levels below.
CRPG Categories: Story, Characters, Game-world, Manipulation, Combat.
Other interesting categories: Graphics, Game length, difficulty, Perspective and Playstyle.
Each category is divided into 6 frames from "none" to "Heavy" CRGP-elements giving a score from 0 to 5 points.
A games points from each category will be added together and then divided with 6 and will classify it's CRPG-score to the following list:
CRPG Factor 0 - < 1 point => "No CRPG"
CRPG Factor 1 - < 2 points => "CRPG light"
CRPG Factor 2 - < 4 points => "CRPG"
CRPG Factor 4 - 5 Points => "CRPG Heavy"
The Categories frames
STORY:
No: 0 Points:
-The story is told in the beginning, and finished in the end, AND is not changeable during the game.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-A Few ”events” (NPC’s, happenings (Disasters, divine influences etc), Full movies interludes etc.) evolves the story, but still in a given path.
Light: 2 points:
-The story is developing through chapters or milestones, which still have an almost fixed path.
-A very few side stories/quests, OR noticeably different paths you can take to advance the same story, are available.
Medium: 3 points:
-The story develops as the game proceeds, meaning new information’s/events contribute for developing of the story on a frequent basis.
-Events (See above) impact on the story are considerable,
-The gamers actions have considerable impact on the development of the story.
-More than one path is possible in the ”main” story. Not necessarily more endings, just the possibility to choose between different “story” path’s of the “main story”. (Side quests not directly related to main story don’t count).
More: 4 points:
-A few different endings is possible
-More than 2 ways to go through the story
-Lots of side stories/quests are required.
-Quests or tasks got often more than one solution!
Heavy: 5 points:
-Very open ended, with very high replay value regarding the story alone.
-Many events will contribute to many side / main story topics and respond to many different approaches of the gamers.
-Lots of books or other materials can give additional information’s about world for the interested player.
CHARACTERS:
No: 0 Points:
-No development other than a better weapon, armour and a few pre-distributed skill points after each chapter / milestone.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-Max 2 options (points /spells / treats / skills) to develop and maximum 10 upgrades of the character(s).
Light: 2 points:
-Max 5 options (points /spells / treats / skills) to develop. AND at least +10 upgrades of the character(s)
-A minimum of social development / regards in the game-world societies is necessary) (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)
Medium: 3 points:
-More than 5 options (points /spells / treats / skills) to develop.
-Your characters development is much affected by gamers influence. (Both social and physical).
-Gamers must have access to develop, Spells, skills / treats, attributes (Strength, intelligence etc) on a regular basis (+15 times).
-The characters can have considerable social impact on more than one society / guild. (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)
More : 4 points:
-Now a party of at least 3 fully controlled characters should be possible,
-The choice from different professions / races should give a combination of at least 10 possible different characters (Note: Different mug-shots don’t count).
-Considerable social impact on more than 2 societies / guilds is possible. (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)
Heavy: 5 points:
-At least 20 times upgrade for your characters,
-At least 10+ options of change each time, OR a learning by doing or teaching possibility which makes up for the 20 level upgrades.
-+15 different races/ professions to choose from.
NPC's:
No: 0 points:
-Few NPC's most only merchants.
-Pre-determined dialogues.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-The dialogues now have a few options, but it still contribute to the same story, AND each choice is reversible in consequence.
Light: 2 points:
-NPC's are presented in small societies, AND some of them can make a difference in further development of the game.
Medium: 3 points:
-NPC's acts truly as a part of a bigger community.
-NPC's in each society are much aware about social status also toward your characters.
-More than one society with NPC's are present in the world.
More: 4 points:
-There are fleshed out dialogue trees,
-Choices is most final and irreversible.
-NPC’s have considerable impact on the amount of Main / side- stories.
Heavy: 5 points:
-NPC's are aware of the continuously developing situation in the game-world, AND react clearly to the gamers actions and deeds.
-More than 2 bigger societies of NPC's must be available.
-Reputation, skills, alignment, attitude etc. have considerable impact on the NPC reaction.
GAMEWORLD:
No: 0 points:
-The task to get from A to B has no or few options to go away from a fixed physical path.
-The game-world only inhabits monsters and a few merchants.
-The world is without (none monster) societies.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-Still a strict physical path, but with a few small societies on your way.
Light: 2 points:
-A few areas are optional on your path each chapter / milestone.
-Societies will give some quest / story material.
Medium: 3 points:
-There are at least several physical path's to choose between, AND more will open up as the game proceeds.
-Societies must give the feeling of a live community, with their own daily business, AND not just a few NPC's waiting for the hero's to come along and pass on a few quests.
-The size of the game-world must be considerable.
More: 4 points:
-Societies must be very different and have strong relation to the game-world and each other.
-We are no longer talking about path's when exploring the world.
-The appearance of monsters and societies must make common sense.
Heavy: 5 points:
-The world is totally open for extreme freedom to explore, AND it's your own task to decide if your character(s) are good enough to take on the different part of the world.
-The diversity of the game-world environment must be significant.
-Day & night cycles, and different weather conditions and /or different seasons.
MANIPULTION:
No: 0 points:
-Almost no action possible besides walk/run and combat, except maybe a very few items.
-Game-world itself is very static.
Ultra light: 1 points:
-Very few limited interactions besides walking and combat.
- A few chest barrels is scattered through the game.
Light: 2 points:
-There are a few weapons, armours, items in the game.
-Traps, levers, keys and alike is available in it's simple presence.
Medium: 3 points:
-The game-world have a considerable amount of weapons, armours, items, skills, spells in significant variations.
-The things to do will quickly fill up more than one page in your journal, AND keep it that way for most of the game.
-Custom items must be available. (Custom items are items that can’t directly be found in the game-world, the player needs to either combine more items or process an item with (Fire, acid, poison, magic, tool-masters etc (repairing items don’t count)). It’s not limited to weapons and armour only)
More: 4 points:
-You can see /influence changes in the environment, OR use it either to create/ manipulate things or get strategic possibilities in combat. (Summarised: Game-world environment itself offers several interactivity possibilities: (Chopping trees, make fire, diving in water, hide behind objects, move/destroy/manipulate objects, etc.)
– A few different ways of making custom items must be available. (Custom items are items that can’t directly be found in the game-world, the players needs to either combine more items or process an item with (Fire, acid, poison, magic, tool-masters etc (repairing items don’t count)). It’s not limited to weapons and armour only).
Heavy: 5 points:
- Many different ways of making custom items must be available. (Custom items are items that can’t directly be found in the game-world, the players needs to either combine more items or process an item with (Fire, acid, poison, magic, tool-masters etc (repairing items don’t count)). It’s not limited to weapons and armour only).
-Alchemist, spell-casters, smiths, herbalist and other item collectors are in heaven due to the tons of items for manipulation.
-Game-world environment itself offers many interactivity possibilities: (Chopping trees, make fire, diving in water, hide behind objects, move/destroy/manipulate objects, etc.)
COMBAT:
No: 0 points:
-You put your character(s) into position and they solve combat on their own, or the combat result is only affected by your skills on the keyboard.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-Real-time combat only without any pause options.
-Options are limited to the choice of the opponent to attack.
Light: 2 points:
-Character skills and/or players strategic abilities have a noticeable more impact on the outcome of the battles too.
Medium: 3 points:
-Players can more decide the pace of the battle,
-Strategic positions of the party is more vital, and the options for each character is more plentiful.
-At this point it's also important that monsters offers some diversity not only in numbers, but also in strategies necessary to win.
-Monsters AI are more than attacking the closest enemy!
- There must be more issues for your characters during combat, than loosing or giving hit-points. Ex. Poisoning, paralyse, curse etc.
More: 4 points:
-Their must be alternatives to swing your sword and cast a spell during combat Ex. Skills, traps, spells, treats, or items to use in battles.
-Different strategies are necessary for survival.
Heavy: 5 points:
-Each characters can be controlled individual down to the smallest detail and in any pace wanted.
-The monsters must offer a lot of difference both in numbers, abilities, battle environment, which must offer quite a diversity in battle approaches.
- Monsters AI are considerable.
OTHER NON-RPG RELATED INTERESTING CATEGORIES:
GRAPHICS:
An “Year” of evaluation should follow the graphics score!
We try not to express how beautiful the graphics is (It's difficult to separate entirely), just how many specific graphic technology elements it contains (Like shadows, lightning etc), and it's standard compared to others at the time of the review!
0 points: Text only.
1 point: Static pictures, and/ or low 2D resolution in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
2 points: Higher 2D resolution in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
3 Points: Mediocre 3D or 2D with up to date standard compared to others in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
4 Points: Fully 3D with up to date standard compared to others in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
5 Points: Fully 3D. Absolute among the best in it's category, with a few ground breaking content compared to others at the time it is reviewed.
LENGTH:
An average length is used for calculation, a second score in “( )” for maximum hours searching under every stone and solving every quest could be mentioned if it brings the game into another score-area.
0 points: Under 8 hours.
1 point: 8 - 20 hours.
2 points: 20- 50 hours.
3 points: 50- 80 hours.
4 points: 80 - 150 hours.
5 points: over 150 hours.
DIFFICULTY:
0 points: No brain teasers at all, only walk /run and hack 'n slash
1 point: Easy brain teasers that don't slow the game pace down considerable.
2 points: Some problems (Riddles, events, combat, NPC's etc) can make you stop for a short while until you find the relative easy solution!
3 Points: Not all problems are obvious in solution, but there are more possibilities to get help. The amount of problems must also be considerable.
4 Points: Some problems can't be solved without help/things from other places or without some in vain tries first!
5 Points: The game is loaded with more or less hard problems, and many problems can only be solved by extensive brain use!
PERSPECTIVE:
A Non-score category:
TXT: No perspective (e.g. no graphics), text games.
FIX: Fixed viewpoint (Not changeable).
FLEX: Flexible distance/orientation . The viewpoint distance can be changed and/or the screen can be rotated.
ISO: Isometric view ( Any angle between vertical top-down and 1.st person view, but still seen from above the party/ characters.
SHOULDER: The close overhead / shoulder view, where the gamers viewpoint follow the character(s) heading, with a look just above the head/shoulders of your character(s), and the character(s) can be seen in the button of the picture.
FP: The 1.st person view where gamers viewpoint is the same as looking out of the eyes of the character(s)
BIRD: From the sky the players has a vertical down view point on the game-world.
SIDE: View points like Platform games or the elder Kings/Space quest games
EX:
Might & Magic VII: Perspective: FP
Diablo 2: Perspective: ISO-FIX
Summoner: Perspective: HEAD/ISO-FLEX
PLAYSTYLE:
A non-score category.
SP: Single player
MP: Multiplayer
OP: Online play possible
MMO: Massive multiplayer online!
P: Parties possible.
S: Single character game
EX:
Might & Magic VII: Style: SP-P
Diablo 2: Perspective: Style:SP-S/MP/OP
Summoner: Perspective: Style:SP-P/MP?
A conclusion on a game could look like this:
Might & Magic VII
RPG Factors: Story: 3, Character: 5, NPC:3, World: 5, Manipulation:4, Combat: 4.
RPG Score:= 4.0 => "RPG heavy"
Other Factors: Graphics:2 (1998?), Length:3(4), Difficulty:4, Perspective: FP, Style:SP-P. _________________ Moderator on RPGdot.com Forum.
Member of the Nonflamers guild.
Member of the Sport fan club.
Last edited by Michael C on Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:25 pm; edited 2 times in total |
Wed Sep 18, 2002 9:36 am |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy

Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
Realms of Arkania Star Trail (Sternenschweif)
STORY: 3 (many easy assignments, like 'take item A from location B to C')
CHARACTER: 4
GAMEWORLD: 5 (different seasons, day/night cycle,...)
NPC: 3
MANIPULATION: 4 (would be 5 if we remove 'NPCs are many and give a ton of more or less interesting assignments to do.' - that belongs to STORY or NPC in my opinion)
COMBAT: 5 (turn based strategic combat)
**********************************
RPG Score:= 4.0 (4.17) => "RPG heavy"
**********************************
Secondary categories:
DIFFICULTY: 3-4 (using Michael C's earlier suggestion not version 0.5)
(Realms of Arkania has 2 difficulty levels, very good to learn roleplaying)
PERSPECTIVE: FP-FIX/ISO-FIX
cities & dungons in FP
combats in ISO
travelling on a 2D map
GRAPHICS : 3 (1993)
LENGTH: 4
Playstyle: SP-P
similar games: Wizardry 7 _________________ =Member of The Nonflamers' Guild= |
Wed Sep 18, 2002 11:51 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon

Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Okay, I had some annoyances towards the "Manipulation" category myself, so I tweeked it. I removed "NPC's directly presence in this category, and tuned up some of the frames in the same category. I made the changes in the last revision in a post above! _________________ Moderator on RPGdot.com Forum.
Member of the Nonflamers guild.
Member of the Sport fan club. |
Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:16 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon

Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
UUPS, I somehow got the old "Difficult" category back into the system, I now have corrected that in version 0.5. Now I know why HiddenX did refer to an older version for this category when he evaluated "Startrail", I didn't know why at first, but now it's obvious, and as said I already corrected it!  _________________ Moderator on RPGdot.com Forum.
Member of the Nonflamers guild.
Member of the Sport fan club. |
Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:30 pm |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy

Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
Michael, your system is getting better and better  _________________ =Member of The Nonflamers' Guild= |
Wed Sep 18, 2002 1:52 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon

Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
quote: Originally posted by HiddenX
Michael, your system is getting better and better
I hope so, and it's certainly You guys big contribution, that hopefully bring our idea in the correct direction!  _________________ Moderator on RPGdot.com Forum.
Member of the Nonflamers guild.
Member of the Sport fan club. |
Wed Sep 18, 2002 2:13 pm |
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Ariel
Harmonious Angel

Joined: 21 Jul 2001
Posts: 432
Location: Germany |
dte: In regard to your Deus Ex rating... (I'm looking at V0.5 now).
~Story: I think what swayed me was the way the game handled the survival/death of various NPCs at different stages of the game. I don't know, perhaps I've been overly generous.~
I think what I missed is a fair amount of sub-quests, but those aren't even mentioned in Medium yet, so it was a misinterpretation on my part. Deus Ex does seem to have a Medium story (3).
~Character: I'd bet the phrase "regular basis" is the source of our disagreement here. Since you can spend your points at any time and pick up augs about once per chapter, I thought that was enough to call "regular".~
No, I was mostly intimidated by "-More than 5 options (points /spells / treats / skills) to develop". In Deus Ex you can only develop skills and augmentations. However, this brings up another question: What can be considered an "option"? The augmentation upgrades in Deus Ex are pretty varied, and you have to make a 'this or that' choice for each upgrade slot. In Divinity, spells are no different from skills...
Maybe it would be better to use a minimum necessary amount of points (skills/spells/attributes) instead of options? A game could offer you to develop (Str, Dex, Mag, Vit, Skill 1, Skill 2, Skill 3, Skill 4, Spell 1, Spell 2), or in other words 10 points to develop. How would Diablo 2 compete in the current system? I think it qualifies as RPG in this category, but does it have "more than 5 options"?
~NPC's: Not sure which of the three criteria you thought didn't get met.~
I'm not sure either. 3 points it is!
MC: Aye, your system is getting better all the time! I think I can even live with the new graphics category, although I'm still a bit reserved. Anyway, can you do the same for sound then? You could include (amount of supported speakers? i.e. 2D/3D? advanced environmental sfx (occlusion, echo etc)? digital audio or midi or no sound?)..
~Summoner: Perspective: HEAD/ISO-FLEX ~
Summoner may be BIRD, but not ISO. ISO is always fixed by definition (exception: Sim City 2000, you could turn the camera in 90° steps). If characters are seen diagonally (any angle) from above, and the game is fully 3D, it's pretty much always BIRD or SHOULDER (3rd person), supposed that distant objects are visually smaller than close objects, which is true for most 3D games.
Btw, what about the difference between CoOp and PvP in PLAYSTYLE? This is important, I think, because lots of players are only interested in the CoOp part. How about MP for any multiplayer mode, and "MP-C" if CoOp is also available? Note: With CoOp I mean that players can go through the same story together.
Then I believe to have spotted another issue. The RPG.factor (isn't this a nice and unobtrusive pun? ) scale worked ok for the first version of the system, when there were still only No, Light, RPG, and Heavy, but I think it doesn't work out correctly anymore with the current points. Most obvious example: A given game is "RPG light" in every category, but would count as "RPG". Therefore I suggest the following small change:
RPG.factor 0 - < 1 point => "No RPG"
RPG.factor 1 - < 2 points => "RPG ultra light"
RPG.factor 2 - < 3 points => "RPG light"
RPG.factor 3 - < 4 points => "RPG"
RPG.factor 4 - < 5 points => "RPG heavy"
I'm going to try out V0.5 later today. _________________ “Through the sounds of falling rain, through the clouds of bitter times
I see the pure grace of your smile, in dreams of the warmth in your eyes” - Tim North |
Wed Sep 18, 2002 4:57 pm |
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Michael C
Black Dragon

Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
Okay I started tweeking version 0.5 with the new suggestions, but with an additional few things I found mylself it actually runs up in a considerable change, so I'm going (again) to make a new version with following changes:
- Updated the RPG-score list mostly accordingly to Arhu's fair suggestions
- Tweeked the "Story" category to require a few side-quest in the "medium" frame.
- Changed the "Character" category considerable to be more specific (Using numbers) in each frame, and changed some definitions and added some explanations.
- Added a hole new non-RPG category called "sound".
- Added co-operative and PvP in the "Play-style" category.
- Reduced the number of explanations of "Custom" items in the "Manipulation" category to only once!
NB: Regarding "BIRD" view, I have defined it as a 90 degree look down on the gameworld, and Isometric (ISO) covers any other angle except the "Shoulder" and "First person" (0 degree) look. So using this definition Summoner is a Perspective: SHOULDER/ISO- FLEX game, and Diablo 2: ISO-FIX. BG2: ISO-FIX. Dungeon Siege: ISO-FLEX. _________________ Moderator on RPGdot.com Forum.
Member of the Nonflamers guild.
Member of the Sport fan club. |
Thu Sep 19, 2002 10:02 am |
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Michael C
Black Dragon

Joined: 09 Jul 2001
Posts: 1595
Location: Aarhus, Denmark |
VERSION 0.6
To determine if a game should apply to a certain level, all the mentioned demands must be fulfilled in that level and the levels below.
CRPG Categories: Story, Characters, NPC’s, Game-world, Manipulation, Combat.
Other interesting categories: Graphics, Sound, Game length, Difficulty, Perspective and Play-style.
Each category is divided into 6 frames from "none" to "Heavy" CRGP-elements giving a score from 0 to 5 points.
A games points from each category will be added together and then divided with 6 and will classify it's CRPG-score to the following list:
RPG-Elements Score 0 - < 1 point => "No CRPG"
RPG-Elements Score 1 - < 2 points => "CRPG ultra light"
RPG-Elements Score 2- < 3 points => “CRPG light
RPG-Elements Score 3 - < 4 points => "CRPG"
RPG-Elements Score 4 - 5 Points => "CRPG Heavy"
The RPG-element categories and their 6 scores/frames.
STORY:
No: 0 Points:
-The story is told in the beginning, and finished in the end, AND is not changeable during the game.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-A Few ”events” (NPC’s, happenings (Disasters, divine influences etc), Full movies interludes etc.) evolves the story, but still in a given path.
Light: 2 points:
-The story is developing through chapters or milestones, which still have an almost fixed path.
-A very few side stories/quests, OR noticeably different paths you can take to advance the same story, are available.
Medium: 3 points:
-The story develops as the game proceeds, meaning new information’s/events contribute for developing of the story on a frequent basis.
-Events (See above) impact on the story are considerable,
-The gamers actions have considerable impact on the development of the story.
-More than one path is possible in the ”main” story. Not necessarily more endings, just the possibility to choose between different “story” path’s of the “main story”. (Side quests not directly related to main story don’t count).
-A few side stories/quests besides the “main story” must be available.
More: 4 points:
-A few different endings is possible
-More than 2 ways to go through the story
-Lots of side stories/quests are required.
-Quests or tasks got often more than one solution!
Heavy: 5 points:
-Very open ended, with very high replay value regarding the story alone.
-Many events will contribute to many side / main story topics and respond to many different approaches from the player.
-Lots of books or other materials can give additional information’s about world for the interested player.
CHARACTERS:
No: 0 Points:
-No development other than a better weapon, armour and a few pre-distributed skill points after each chapter / milestone.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-Max 2 points to distribute on the character(s) abilities (Attributes /spells / treats / skills) each time they develop levels and a maximum of 10 upgrades(Levels) of the character(s). Learning by doing covering the same amount of development is acceptable too.
Light: 2 points:
-Max 5 points to distribute on the character(s) at least 5+ different abilities (Attributes /spells / treats / skills) each time they develop levels and at least 10+ upgrades(Levels) of the character(s). Learning by doing covering the same amount of development is acceptable too.
-A minimum of social development / regards in the game-world societies is necessary) (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)
Medium: 3 points:
-More than 5+ points to distribute on the character(s) at least 10+ different abilities (Attributes /spells / treats / skills) each time they develop levels and at least 15+ upgrades(Levels) of the character(s). Learning by doing covering the same amount of development is acceptable too.
-The characters can have considerable social impact on more than one society / guild. (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)
More : 4 points:
-Now a party of at least 3 fully controlled characters should be possible,
-The choice from different professions / races should give a combination of at least 10 possible different characters (Note: Different mug-shots don’t count).
-Considerable social impact on more than 2 societies / guilds is possible. (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)
Heavy: 5 points:
-More than 10+ points to distribute on the character(s) at least 15+abilities (Attributes /spells / treats / skills) each time they develop levels and at least 20+ upgrades(Levels) of the character(s). Learning by doing covering the same amount of development is acceptable too.
-+15 different races/ professions to choose from.
-Plenty of societies/guilds which the characters have a social impact on. (Wiping out a society/guild is not counting)
NPC's:
No: 0 points:
-Few NPC's most only merchants.
-Pre-determined dialogues.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-The dialogues now have a few options, but it still contribute to the same story, AND each choice is reversible in consequence.
Light: 2 points:
-NPC's are presented in small societies, AND some of them can make a difference in further development of the game.
Medium: 3 points:
-NPC's acts truly as a part of a bigger community.
-NPC's in each society are much aware about social status also toward your characters.
-More than one society with NPC's are present in the world.
More: 4 points:
-There are fleshed out dialogue trees,
-Choices is most final and irreversible.
-NPC’s have considerable impact on the amount of Main / side- stories.
Heavy: 5 points:
-NPC's are aware of the continuously developing situation in the game-world, AND react clearly to the gamers actions and deeds.
-More than 2 bigger societies of NPC's must be available.
-Reputation, skills, alignment, attitude etc. have considerable impact on the NPC reaction.
GAMEWORLD:
No: 0 points:
-The task to get from A to B has no or few options to go away from a fixed physical path.
-The game-world only inhabits monsters and a few merchants.
-The world is without (none monster) societies.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-Still a strict physical path, but with a few small societies on your way.
Light: 2 points:
-A few areas are optional on your path each chapter / milestone.
-Societies will give some quest / story material.
Medium: 3 points:
-There are at least several physical path's to choose between, AND more will open up as the game proceeds.
-Societies must give the feeling of a live community, with their own daily business, AND not just a few NPC's waiting for the hero's to come along and pass on a few quests.
-The size of the game-world must be considerable.
More: 4 points:
-Societies must be very different and have strong relation to the game-world and each other.
-We are no longer talking about a few path's when exploring the world.
-The appearance of monsters and societies must make common sense.
Heavy: 5 points:
-The world is totally open for extreme freedom to explore, AND it's your own task to decide if your character(s) are good enough to take on the different part of the world.
-The diversity of the game-world environment must be significant.
-Day & night cycles, and different weather conditions and /or different seasons.
MANIPULTION:
No: 0 points:
-Almost no action possible besides walk/run and combat, except maybe a very few items.
-Game-world itself is very static.
Ultra light: 1 points:
-Very few limited interactions besides walking and combat.
- A few chest barrels is scattered through the game.
Light: 2 points:
-There are a few weapons, armours, items in the game.
-Traps, levers, keys and alike is available in it's simple presence.
Medium: 3 points:
-The game-world have a considerable amount of weapons, armours, items, skills, spells in significant variations.
-The things to do will quickly fill up more than one page in your journal, AND keep it that way for most of the game.
-Custom items must be available. (Custom items are items that can’t directly be found in the game-world, the player needs to either combine more items or process an item with (Fire, acid, poison, magic, tool-masters etc (repairing items don’t count)). It’s not limited to weapons and armour only)
More: 4 points:
-You can see /influence changes in the environment, OR use it either to create/ manipulate things or get strategic possibilities in combat. (Summarised: Game-world environment itself offers several interactivity possibilities: (Chopping trees, make fire, diving in water, hide behind objects, move/destroy/manipulate objects, etc.)
– A few different ways of making custom items must be available. (See above).
Heavy: 5 points:
- Many different ways of making custom items must be available. (See above).
-Alchemist, spell-casters, smiths, herbalist and other item collectors are in heaven due to the tons of items for manipulation.
-Game-world environment itself offers many interactivity possibilities: (Chopping trees, make fire, diving in water, hide behind objects, move/destroy/manipulate objects, etc.)
COMBAT:
No: 0 points:
-You put your character(s) into position and they solve combat on their own, or the combat result is only affected by your skills on the keyboard.
Ultra light: 1 point:
-Real-time combat only without any pause options.
-Options are limited to the choice of the opponent to attack.
Light: 2 points:
-Character skills and/or players strategic abilities have a noticeable more impact on the outcome of the battles too.
Medium: 3 points:
-Players can more decide the pace of the battle,
-Strategic positions of the party is more vital, and the options for each character is more plentiful.
-At this point it's also important that monsters offers some diversity not only in numbers, but also in strategies necessary to win.
-Monsters AI are more than attacking the closest enemy!
- There must be more issues for your characters during combat, than loosing or giving hit-points. Ex. Poisoning, paralyse, curse etc.
More: 4 points:
-Their must be alternatives to swing your sword and cast a spell during combat Ex. Skills, traps, spells, treats, or items to use in battles.
-Different strategies are necessary for survival.
Heavy: 5 points:
-Each characters can be controlled individual down to the smallest detail and in any pace wanted.
-The monsters must offer a lot of difference both in numbers, abilities, battle environment, which must offer quite a diversity in battle approaches.
- Monsters AI are considerable.
OTHER NON-RPG RELATED INTERESTING CATEGORIES:
GRAPHICS:
An “Year” of evaluation should follow the graphics score!
We try not to express how beautiful the graphics is (It's difficult to separate entirely), just how many specific graphic technology elements it contains (Like shadows, lightning etc), and it's standard compared to others at the time of the review!
0 points: Text only.
1 point: Static pictures, and/ or low 2D resolution in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
2 points: Higher 2D resolution in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
3 points: Mediocre 3D or 2D with up to date standard compared to others in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
4 points: Fully 3D with up to date standard compared to others in relation to other games in the year of evaluation.
5 points: Fully 3D. Absolute among the best in it's category, with a few ground breaking content compared to others at the time it is reviewed.
SOUND:
This determines the amount and the degree of acoustic technologies in the sound, not directly the quality or realism of the sound, and not how many different sound boards it covers.
0 Points: No sound.
1 point: Mono sound.
2 points: Very sparse and basic Stereo sound
3 points: Plentiful Stereo sound
4 points: Support of more than 2 speakers, and considerable environmental sounds.
5 points: Fully real surround sound support (At least 5.1), with ultra real 3D feeling
LENGTH:
An average length is used for calculation, a second score in “( )” for maximum hours searching under every stone and solving every quest could be mentioned if it brings the game into another score-area.
0 points: Under 8 hours.
1 point: 8 - 20 hours.
2 points: 20- 50 hours.
3 points: 50- 80 hours.
4 points: 80 - 150 hours.
5 points: over 150 hours.
DIFFICULTY:
0 points: No brain teasers at all, only walk /run and hack 'n slash
1 point: Easy brain teasers that don't slow the game pace down considerable.
2 points: Some problems (Riddles, events, combat, NPC's etc) can make you stop for a short while until you find the relative easy solution!
3 points: Not all problems are obvious in solution, but there are more possibilities to get help. The amount of problems must also be considerable.
4 points: Some problems can't be solved without help/things from other places or without some in vain tries first!
5 points: The game is loaded with more or less hard problems, and many problems can only be solved by extensive brain use!
PERSPECTIVE:
A Non-score category:
TXT: No perspective (e.g. no graphics), text games.
FIX: Fixed viewpoint (Not changeable).
FLEX: Flexible distance/orientation . The viewpoint distance can be changed and/or the screen can be rotated.
ISO: Isometric view ( Any angle between vertical top-down and 1.st person view, but still seen from above the party/ characters.
SHOULDER: The close overhead / shoulder view, where the gamers viewpoint follow the character(s) heading, with a look just above the head/shoulders of your character(s), and the character(s) can be seen in the button of the picture.
FP: The 1.st person view where gamers viewpoint is the same as looking out of the eyes of the character(s)
BIRD: From the sky the players has a vertical down view point on the game-world.
SIDE: View points like Platform games or the elder Kings/Space quest games
EX:
Might & Magic VII: Perspective: FP
Diablo 2: Perspective: ISO-FIX
Summoner: Perspective: SHOULDER/ISO-FLEX
PLAYSTYLE:
A non-score category.
SP: Single player
MP: Multiplayer
OP: Online play possible
MMO: Massive multiplayer online!
Co: Co-operative multiplayer possibility
PvP: Player versus player mode in multiplayer mode.
P: Parties possible.
S: Single character game
EX:
Might & Magic VII: Style: SP-P
Diablo 2: Perspective: Style:SP-S, MP-Co/PvP, OP-Co/PvP
Summoner: Perspective: Style:SP-P,MP?
A conclusion on a game could look like this:
Might & Magic VII
RPG Factors: Story: 3, Character: 5, NPC:3, World: 5, Manipulation:4, Combat: 4.
RPG Score:= 4.0 => "RPG heavy"
Other Factors: Graphics:2 (1998?), Sound:3, Length:3(4), Difficulty:4, Perspective: FP, Style:SP-P. _________________ Moderator on RPGdot.com Forum.
Member of the Nonflamers guild.
Member of the Sport fan club. |
Thu Sep 19, 2002 10:10 am |
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HiddenX
The Elder Spy

Joined: 20 Jul 2001
Posts: 749
Location: NRW / Germany |
another rating - one of my personal favorites
Wizardry 7
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STORY: 4 (fits exactly to Michael's system V 0.6 - STORY 4 points)
CHARACTER: 5 (not exactly 15 different races, but many race/professions combinations are possible: (14*11= 154 combinations), many level ups, many skills to learn, you can change professions during the game, special skills can be learned)
NPCS: 5 (no fleshed out dialog-trees, but you can type in any sentence you want, the NPCs react to your deeds done, you can bribe them or beat the information out of them. 7 NPC societies are available.)
GAMEWORLD: 4, maybe 5 (day/night cycle, but no different seasons, and no weather conditions, if I remember right)
MANIPULATION: 4, some custom items are available (belt of 5 flowers, vine-rope,...), traps, teleports, buttons, secret doors,...
COMBAT: 5 - no question here
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RPG Score:= 4.5 => "RPG heavy"
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Graphics: 3 (1992), Sound:2, Length:5, Difficulty:5, Perspective: FP, Style:SP-P. _________________ =Member of The Nonflamers' Guild= |
Thu Sep 19, 2002 1:39 pm |
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