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Mephisto
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 300
Location: Holland |
Morrowind is non-lineair, really. the fact that you do not influence the economy is a valid point, but has nothing to do with lineairity in any way: the ammount of pressure the devs put on you to play the game in a certain way make a game either lineair or non-lineair, not the additional options. There are no 'features unlocked' when you reach certain 'stages', you are presented with a world and the freedom to do as you please. That is in no way lineair, even though the depth could be, ehm, more deep.. |
Thu May 01, 2003 1:57 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by Mephisto
Morrowind is non-lineair, really. the fact that you do not influence the economy is a valid point, but has nothing to do with lineairity in any way: the ammount of pressure the devs put on you to play the game in a certain way make a game either lineair or non-lineair, not the additional options. There are no 'features unlocked' when you reach certain 'stages', you are presented with a world and the freedom to do as you please. That is in no way lineair, even though the depth could be, ehm, more deep..
I disagree (to some extent) with the implied def'n of non linear. Non linear to me means that your actions change the world. This is not, generally, the case with MW. I just used the economy as an example.
If I had complete freedom I hire a dozen workers and build a house in the middle of a swamp. I could decide to be a farmer and grow crops. Neither of these is possible (okay you can get granted a stronghold, but the PC did not build it on his own initiative ... nor do you get to choose where it will be built).
However, it is very non linear in that there are many different things a character can do, and many different ways to do it. The game rewards having a goal for your character and trying to get there ... like my son's alchemist.
But it is not a true 100% non linear game world.
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Thu May 01, 2003 2:12 pm |
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Mephisto
Leader of the Senate
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 300
Location: Holland |
quote:
I disagree (to some extent) with the implied def'n of non linear. Non linear to me means that your actions change the world. This is not, generally, the case with MW.
With all respect, but who gave you this definition of linear? Linearity simply means that you start at point A and always end up at point B following road C, or at least staying very close to road C. This is in Morrowind simply not the case, we all start at point A, obviously, but we can end up whereever we want anyway we want.
quote:
If I had complete freedom I hire a dozen workers and build a house in the middle of a swamp. I could decide to be a farmer and grow crops. Neither of these is possible (okay you can get granted a stronghold, but the PC did not build it on his own initiative ... nor do you get to choose where it will be built).
This is exactly were we disagree. I agree it would be fun to have it, I agree it would add more freedom, but freedom in this sense is unconnected with linearity. And as to who has the correct definition: there are multiple definitions of linearity, but mine is, at the very least, in the dictionary, whereas yours is not. |
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Thu May 01, 2003 5:28 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
Well, you are correct about no new features being unlocked as the game goes on. However, the world is very static. So maybe linear is not a great term, but the world continues on in it's straight line course (linear) despite any of the changes the PC may attempt.
The PC has the freedom to do a great many things, but ... and boy have we tossed this around for quite some length at different times in these forums ... the world does not fit our general psuedo consensus criteria of a non linear environment - it is too static. The character interaciton with the world is less static, but still restricted. I can not chop down a tree, I can not buy a store and set up shop, I can not hire an army etc.
So I guess I can sum it up as:
•Character development is very open ended (non linear ??),
•charcter interaction with the world is more restricted (linear??)
•the world is very static (linear??)
This is not a complaint! I really like this game, and I think the limitations are all the more glaring given the freedoms in so many other areas. This game has a near permanent spot on my hard drive because the options are so varied.
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Thu May 01, 2003 5:51 pm |
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Danicek
The Old One
Joined: 15 Dec 2001
Posts: 5922
Location: Czech Republic |
So then it is not possible to be non-linear. Developers must make game with its own high AI that will built its world on its own, game that will think out new goals, new quests and new ways. Without this every game will be linear, it will have many side-quests, but main quest must have begining and must have finite number of ends. Without it there will be no motivation at least for very large number of players.
Morrowind is in this way extreme game, its non-linearity is for most players its main fault - look around this forum.
So there are too ways how to speak about linearity/non-linearity. First is theoretical mathematical definition. When we use it - every game is linear. And second - lets say "gamers definition", that lets us describe game that lets us make decissions, change our ways and reach different goals. Such game is non-linear. |
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Sat May 03, 2003 2:30 pm |
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Jaz
Late Night Spook
Joined: 20 Jan 2002
Posts: 9708
Location: RPGDot |
quote:
Originally posted by Danicek
Developers must make game with its own high AI that will built its world on its own, game that will think out new goals, new quests and new ways.
I read about some academic AI project going by the name of Mimesis (I don't think it has a connection to the Mimesis Online in our database here) trying to do exactly that.
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Jaz |
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Sat May 03, 2003 3:15 pm |
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Lintra
Elf Friend
Joined: 23 Apr 2002
Posts: 9448
Location: Bermuda, the triangle place with SANDY BEACHES |
quote:
Originally posted by Danicek
So then it is not possible to be non-linear. Developers must make game with its own high AI that will built its world on its own, game that will think out new goals, new quests and new ways. Without this every game will be linear, it will have many side-quests, but main quest must have begining and must have finite number of ends. Without it there will be no motivation at least for very large number of players.
Morrowind is in this way extreme game, its non-linearity is for most players its main fault - look around this forum.
So there are too ways how to speak about linearity/non-linearity. First is theoretical mathematical definition. When we use it - every game is linear. And second - lets say "gamers definition", that lets us describe game that lets us make decissions, change our ways and reach different goals. Such game is non-linear.
* Lintra bows his head in acknowlegement of a good point *
I have to think on this some. I find it easy to bump into the limitations impossed by MW on the game world ... mostly because I am surprised to find them so they are more glaring. In a standard game I would not even consider being disappointed that I can not affect the local economy by dumping tons of specie on it, or be disappointed that I can not hire a band of mercenaries to fight for me.
I would hazard a guess the MW's very openness makes it limitations all the more glaring. When starting to play M&M 6, I do not begin by asking "Okay WHO is this character? What does he/she want to accomplish in life? How is he/she going to go about it?"
Since MW begs to have the player ask these questions the limits impossed by the game system become immediately apparent.
eg: A thought train I went through designing a character with my son: he wants to play an alchemist and amass a fortune, but he doesn't want to be fighter so he should plan on hiring some muscle ... oops can't hire muscle. Gotta find some other way around it ...
This would *never* occur in a regular run of the mill Wizardry/Ultima/M&M setting.
So as I said in the beggining of this (much longer than intended post), good point, I have to think on it some.....
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Tue May 06, 2003 1:17 pm |
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