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AlexScherr
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 48
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| The Theory of the Maximum Level |
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I've just read the thread on level caps, and it made me wonder: isn't there a mathematical model behind all this. I think there is, and it leads to some interesting conclusions.
In theory, there should be a level cap. If we assume that only major and minor skill increases count for levelling-up, and if every skill maxes at 100, then we have 10 elements which will eventually stop levelling out at 100. WITHOUT roleplaying distortions or the multipliers, the maximum cap per race/gender should be the total of the differences between 100 and the starting point for each skill, divided by ten (the number of skill increases it takes to go up a level). Another way to put this is to add together all the starting point levels for all the initial major/minor skills, and subtract them from 1000 (100*10), then divide that figure by 10, to get that race/gender's "potential level".
This assumes an equal distribution of levelling up by ability, but two factors operate to skew the balance. First, roleplaying choices may lead the player to select (or to play out) skills that raise only a subset of all of the abilities. For example, one could choose to play a character eight of whose skills go towards strength, endurance, and athletics, and two of which go to intelligence and personality, with none raising the remaining abilities. This person would more quickly raise the first three abilities, more slowly the next two, and never raise the latter (except by training). That should mean that roleplaying to stress particular abilities probably lowers the maximum level.
The second factor is of course the multipliers. Again, if you achieve a multiplier on a particular ability, that means that ability has moved faster towards its maximum on a particular level. This means that achieving a multiplier effect on a regular basis would also limit the maximum level.
Both of these factors depend on something else: that levelling up ends when abilities cap out, rather than skills. I don't know the answer to this; it may be that levelling up continues as long as any major/minor skill is less than 100, even if the associated abilities have capped. If so, then levelling up is exclusively a function of the difference between the starting point for a chracter's race/gender specific skills and 100. If not, then the roleplaying and multiplier distortions tend to reduce the maximum.
What is clear is the skill levels associated with the race and gender of your initial character play a determining role in the maximum level you can achieve. I haven't done a thorough assessment, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that different races and different genderse have different totals for initial major/minor skills, and thus different "potential levels".
So, if achieving the maximum level were really desirable (and nothing tells me that it is), then you should create a new race that starts out with its major/minor skills evenly distributed between abilities, and with all of them at ZERO. That gives the greatest "potential level", which the player then has to realize by playing the character to raise all of the skills and abilities as evenly as possible, minimizing (rather than maximizing) point multipliers. If this happens, then my theory would say that maxiumum point level this character could achieve would be 100.
Let me say that this is all theory. I've had the same experience as everyone else, that levelling up (after a certain point) makes little difference, and that even the hardest enemies in the shipped game stop being a challenge after level 20 or so. To really make levelling up count, the whole world should change as levels go up. The best "difficulty mods" would be ones which preserve the levelling up of the original game at low levels, but add new and increasingly harder enemies every 5 levels or so up to 100. In addition, with each of these higher levels, helpful items should become scarcer, magic spells more chancy, random events more frequent and more severe.
To make it like real life, your character should start getting arthritis (speed decay) at level 55, get a steady supply of free potions at 65, be unable to earn any money after 70, beyond an inadequate minimum cash flow (which you'd go to a bureaucrat's office in the temple at Vivec to pick up), and require a mage's staff to walk beyond level 85. At 100, about all your character should be able to do should be to ride guars, smoke hackle-lo, drink liquor, and engage in speechcraft, with jokes that kill the enemy.
Last edited by AlexScherr on Fri May 31, 2002 3:44 pm; edited 1 time in total |
Fri May 31, 2002 2:15 pm |
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Brenner
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 May 2002
Posts: 102
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there are 60 points that can be put into luck and ther is no multiplier for luck. once you reach level 10-12, you can safely start ignoring the higher multipliers and placing your points in luck or whatever other skill you like. although putting a character with all strength skills in major and minor would generally mean a higher multiplier for strength, there is no necessity to use it as your misc skills count for multipliers as well, so long as you practice them instead of train them. to reach the maximum level, ignoring permanent skill and attribute losses, you need to balance skill development, multipliers and initial attributes. the only sign that will significantly lower your maximum level is the lady, providing you cannot raise attributes higher than 100.
quote:
To make it like real life, your character should start getting arthritis at level 55, get a steady supply of free potions at 65, be unable to earn any money after 70, beyond an inadequate minimum cash flow, and require a mage's staff to walk beyond level 85. At 100, about all your character should be able to do should be to smoke hackle-lo, drink liquor, and engage in speechcraft, with jokes that kill the enemy
level and age don't equate imo. an acrobat would be a much higher level at younger age than a mage would. (beyong the fact that if you have a good source of money, you can become very higher levels within a few game weeks). |
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Fri May 31, 2002 2:39 pm |
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Brenner
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 May 2002
Posts: 102
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/me grumbles.
hit submit twice |
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Fri May 31, 2002 2:51 pm |
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AlexScherr
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 48
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I agree, in the shipped game, level and age are not the same. But I wonder whether you could mod the game to allow for some decay in skills past a certain level, so that strength, athletics, endurance and speed (for example) would start to fade after level 40, and you had to have developed intelligence, willpower, luck and/or personality to survive. That might also prompt you to rely more heavily on technology, in the form of enchanted clothing, armor and weapons, some of which the mod might provide: the Walker's Staff (fotifies athletics when equipped); or the Potion of Memory (fotifying intelligence for a few seconds).
That would probably prompt a life cycle of shifting between roles, starting as a fighter, and ending as a thief or a mage or both.
Juist a thought . . .
Alex |
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Fri May 31, 2002 3:41 pm |
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XannyD
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 23
Location: Bat Country |
A character whose major/minor skills start out at an average of 22.5 can reach the 78th level.
A character whose major/minor skills start out at an average of 31.5 can reach the 69th level.
So, the lower a character's major/minor skills start at, the higher a level the character may attain. This is a difference of 9 levels.
All races receive a total of 45 bonus points to different skills.
Characters also get a +5 bonus to all skills in his/her specialization. There are 9 skills in each specialization.
If all 90 bonus points go into major/minor skills,
you come up with an average of 31.5. If all 90 bonus points
go into misc. skills, you come up with an average of 22.5.
So, the max. level range is 69 to 78.
New Character Formula:
(1000 - (major skills + minor skills))/10 + 1 = max. level
Add all major and minor skills, subtract this number from 1000, then divide this number by 10, then add 1, and you get maximum level attainable.
Used Character Formula:
(1000 - (major skills + minor skills - (points on level progress bar)))/10 + current character level = max. level
For a "used" character, you must subtract the points on the level progress bar from the number that gets subtracted from 1000.
I used my character for an example:
Level 13
Level Progress Bar 6/10
Major Skills 81+59+43+49+42=274
Minor Skills 24+27+22+24+20=117
(1000 - (274 + 117 - 6))/10 + 13 = 74.5
Level 36
Level Progress Bar 8/10
Major Skills 100+100+93+77+64=434
Minor Skills 39+30+41+54+25=189
(1000 - (434 + 189 - 8))/10 + 36 = 74.5
My character's max. level is 74.
_________________
"We can't stop here, this is bat country." Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas |
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Fri May 31, 2002 4:51 pm |
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Guest
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Basically, you want the highest level pick an unlikely combo of race and class so that all your skill bonuses go to misc skills and not the main class skillls. |
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Fri May 31, 2002 5:21 pm |
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HydroSqueegee
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 48
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or you can max out everything, go to jail, lose some stats, beef em back up, level, rinse and repeat... infinate it tell you!!!
LEVEL 1BILLION!!
Now if every stat is 100 and you rest to level, you have to select 3 stats. Can you even select a stat at 100 when you level? |
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Fri May 31, 2002 5:33 pm |
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Midiboy
Head Merchant
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 74
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Ya, age and level definately have NOTHING to do with each other.
I am level 13, but the game calendar is at day 187.
_________________
Midiboy
Check out http://www.midiboy.com for info about Midiboy Music |
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Fri May 31, 2002 6:35 pm |
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AlexScherr
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 04 May 2002
Posts: 48
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I learned something more about this that I didn't know. I tried to create a zero skills race, with zero bonuses and a birthsign that did nothing. It turns out the game provides a floor which (so far) I haven't been able to crack.
The specialization as thief, mage or fighter sets a part of the floor. I have yet to figure out how to arrange skills so that none of the major or minor skills end up with a specialization boost.
Moreover, it appears that the game sets a minimum of 30 for majors and 15 for minors.
If so, then (as a poster above indicated) if we set up a race to have no specilization boosts in either major or minor skills, we would end up with an average base skill level of 22.5 [((30*5)+(15*5))/10], and a potential maximum level of 77.5.
To reach the max, as someone else points out, you'd have to play the game completely against your specialization, and carefully avoid anything that would produce multipliers in your major and minor skills.
I would like to figure out how to create a mod that allows a zero skill character, but my bet is that you'd have to change the "game settings" variables, and I haven't seen anyone who has listed out what each of these do. Perhaps Bethesda will do this . . .
Alex |
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Fri May 31, 2002 6:55 pm |
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SuperCowMan24
Blademaster of the Moo
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 1194
Location: Texas, USA |
well... i think the answer is obvious. when you become level 69-78... you are a GOD, NOTHING, i mean NOTHING can POSSIBLY stand in your way. all of your stats are LIKELY around 90-100 EACH, (excluding luck) NOW! so.... make any char you want, and you will still end up as a god.... they need to make a mod to give you a challenge, seriously. why would you wanna reach level 100? if what he said is right... if you go in a way that all your bonus points will count towards skills you will still reach level 69 or so.... thats huge! a minimum of (69x3={207!!!} skill points! likely multiplyers of x3 each level... all your skills will EASIly be 100. i was worried about this at first... but it appears that any character will indeed become a god, no matter what. and look at it this way,could a level 79 guy really be better than a level 69 guy? honestly.... the total difference will be marginal because you will stop increasing in hp, and everything... but all skills will be at 100... there is NO difference... almost.... its more for bragging rights...
_________________
Moo. Just do it, purse your lips and let out a MIGHTY MOO!
Don't you feel better now? |
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Fri May 31, 2002 8:33 pm |
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Lawnmower
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 103
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| Breaking the Level Barrier! |
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See, I heard that once your major/minors reach 100, you can still beef them up via the Master Trainers. You won't recieve any skill increases, but once you hit 10 skills trained, you will level. You gain health, and can add to stats you haven't maxed (like luck). Must cost a buttload, though.
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It's a paradox to say that you are lying. Luckily, I can still say that you're lying.
Don't do drugs. Pick one and stick with it. |
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Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:14 am |
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XannyD
Village Dweller
Joined: 06 May 2002
Posts: 23
Location: Bat Country |
You can not train skills past 100. Once you reach 100, normal use stops your skill from rising. There would have to be an NPC in the game with a skill over 100 and be able to train you in it.
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"We can't stop here, this is bat country." Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas |
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Sat Jun 01, 2002 4:30 am |
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SuperCowMan24
Blademaster of the Moo
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 1194
Location: Texas, USA |
anyone have the arena contract pit mod? you pay money to fight uber fighters? the lowest level guy is 25.... the highest guy you can fight... Goliath... is level 100. the guy who made the mod himself said he only beat the guy ONCE... hehe... coool.
_________________
Moo. Just do it, purse your lips and let out a MIGHTY MOO!
Don't you feel better now? |
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Sat Jun 01, 2002 10:49 pm |
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Guest
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Actually it's true, but probably a bug.
You can train a skill despite it being at 100 if you find the trainer that can take it to 100 and still get credits towards elevelling. If the attribute the skill is bound to is over 100 by magical means for instace if you wanna train hand to hand and have 101 speed due to a ring of +1 speed constant you can train hand to hand as long as you want and gain levels till you go blue in the face from clicking on the training (if it is one of your minors or majors that is) found it would cost me about 50k for 10 full character levels doing this and money isn't really a problem, just tedious to get it from creeper, selling a daedric dai katana isn't alot of fun 
And on the other side as some guy pointed out it's simply pointless levelling past lvl 40 at best other than for bragging rights, most stuff in the game should be a pushover by then. |
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:12 am |
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SuperCowMan24
Blademaster of the Moo
Joined: 20 Apr 2002
Posts: 1194
Location: Texas, USA |
i have a question... if you level and, all your stats (str, end, etc.) are at 100, you cant put a stat point into a stat that is 100! so what do you do then? can you just say. ok im done and not assign anything?
_________________
Moo. Just do it, purse your lips and let out a MIGHTY MOO!
Don't you feel better now? |
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 12:20 am |
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