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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
quote:
Originally posted by Brenner
the point - perception of existence is linear. you go from point a to point b, making choices along the way that affect the new directions you can take, but in the end, you will reach the same point no matter what. what is non-linear is the path you choose to get there.
given that point, there can be no simulation of existence that is non-linear, at least not within the parameters given above.
I agree. Using that definition I will say again that there are other games, which are derided for being too linear, that are just as non-linear as Morrowind.
There is an unconscious hypocrisy going on here that is a little hard to understand.
quote:
Originally posted by Badger
In my own caveman like way, I am wondering if we aren’t taking a sledgehammer, to crack an egg here.
That's exactly what we're doing! 
quote:
Originally posted by Sand
Linearity (or lack of it) comes in degrees. You'll always be able to point to aspects of a game and say "that's linear"...but there's still plenty more that can be done to reduce the linearity of a game.
I agree with this too but Morrowind isn't the first game to provide this reduction, it's simply the biggest. MW's sheer vastness is it's single most effective tool in selling the illusion of non-linearity. I think that if Morrowind was the size of a regular game it would be criticized for it's linearity as well. If it were possible to run out of things to do in MW, like it is in other games, then I doubt we would even be having this discussion.
quote:
Originally posted by Val
*blush* As Jaz would say, "Thanks for the flowers, Gig."  
You're welcome! 
quote:
Originally posted by Loremaster
Last, the game isn't even remotely linear. You're entirely free to do what you want, when you want to, where you want to.
Once again... been there--done that, just not to the same scale as MW.
quote:
Originally posted by Shadeling
Well, once again Gig and I seem to be on the opposite sides of opinion. I don't agree either that Morrowind is completely linear. I'm still on my first run through the game but from what I've heard, the main quest actually alters by the actions you take and the character you play. How is that linear?
I don't think that's true. From what I've seen, you can't change the outcome of Morrowind one bit.
MW's political struggles, told from so many different viewpoints, cause you to take sides. I felt like I was working toward what's right. Near the end of the game, a path to completion that should've been available, wasn't and I as forced onto the story's canned ending. For me it meant that I wasn't able to do what I felt was right. I was forced to either betray my (Morrowind) beliefs or abandon the main quest. I think that's pretty linear.
quote:
Originally posted by EverythingXen
So it's INTERACTION for the unexpected and a story truly evolving based on the actions of your character that's desired, not non-linearity. You don't want to hear a windows beep and see an error message when you do something the programmers didn't think of... You want it to work or fail. And you want the computer to acknowledge and rewrite core parts of the story as a result of that unexpected reaction. Impossible in a CRPG because the sum of the game is the sum of the programmers, limited to finite coding lines and options.
Enjoy the journey and you'll enjoy a CRPG. Do not anthropormorphosize the poor AI... for it is nothing even remotely human and putting its programing in the same category as our own vastly superior adaptive neural network is similar to comparing a car trip to a train trip. The train is on a rail... it goes in one direction with little deviation (but you can do whatever you want on the train as it chugs along and enjoy the journey, unless, like older CRPGs, you're bolted to the seat and forced to respond to people coming to you). A car trip can change destinations at will or as the situation dictates. Guess which is the superior form of travel as a result?
That's what I said, non-linearity isn't possible because a computer can't reason like a person. I like Morrowind very much and I'm glad that I played it--whether or not it's linear has nothing to do with that. I think MW is a pretty decent form of travel!
_________________
''Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always think that the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied. Look at me: I design coastlines. I got an award for Norway.''--Slartibartfast |
Fri May 31, 2002 3:23 pm |
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Badger
Stripey Forest Dweller
Joined: 18 Mar 2002
Posts: 924
Location: UK |
Right...... Sorry to lower the tone, but it has to be done. It's the LAW!
In ONE HOUR I will leave this office. I will get in my car and I will take a very short drive. I will amble, all unhurried and casual like.... AND I WILL PICK UP MY COPY OF MORROWIND!!!!!!!!
Thankyou for listening.
Badger.
(This has been an announcement on behalf of the Stripey Party.) |
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Fri May 31, 2002 3:48 pm |
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Shadeling
Head Merchant
Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 64
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Well, IMO, as far roleplaying games go, Morrowind is the most opened ended of all of them. The reason why I consider it to be non-linear is because you don't HAVE to play the main quest in order to play the game. There are a multitude of other options and paths available to take that make it possible not even to follow the main quest and still have a very enjoyable gaming experience. Most other games you can't do that. Gothic, comes to mind, as one of those. Thus, Morrowind is very non-linear.
It goes without saying that a roleplaying game on the computer will never be as intuitive as having a human storyteller but I think games will only get better over time if they continue to make the advances that Morrowind and the upcoming NWN have.
=Fixed your post. Jaz=
_________________
=Member of the Non-Flamer's Guild
"Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night." - Edgar Allen Poe |
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Fri May 31, 2002 3:53 pm |
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Glorfindel
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 41
Location: Philadelphia USA |
Really interesting discussion. I don't think it would be that difficult to make the game really non-linear: just change the guilds, houses, factions and especially the imperial bits to places of training, etc and 'hide' all the quests with individuals. Since almost every step in this game is a decision point of what and where next, everyone would uncover the quests/underlying story in a different order and while there might be an optimal path for a given character, there would be no right/wrong/fixed path. I am not sure that this wouldn't actually add more frustration than freedom. I played TES 1 for 40 or 50 hours, never did work out what I was supposed to do, started another game and this is my first time back to the series. As it is, I have joined just about everything including, as it turns out by level 23, the wrong house and always have six choices of what to do next whenever I finish something. That is all the non-linearity I need in a game.
Since this is a thread full of intelligent and articulate contributors, I'm interested in knowing how deep people are getting into role playing. I have been playing CRPGs for about 15 years now and Morrowind offers by far the best role playing 'opportunities' of any game since the earlier Ultimas. I created my own character and have decided to really play that character, because the game lets me do that. There are a couple of quests I will not do because my character won't do them even though it means I will advance no further in that guild/house - unless there is a way around that block and I find it - and given the depth in the game there just might be. As I progress, it becomes clearer that there are more layers to the onion than I expected and so I continue to play the game in character, try to avoid as many moral dilemmas as I can until I learn enough to see the right path - for me - to the end. I am playing the game because my older son, a real fan of the series all through, told me I should. He is about 20 levels ahead of me playing as an evil Khajit assassin. I am a High Elf Ranger Adventurer, lawful good in AD&D parlance. We are for all intents and purposes playing different games. It is difficult to see what more one can expect from a CRPG.
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Virtual Adventurer Ranger |
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Fri May 31, 2002 3:54 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
Xen, loved the post! Especially the train analogy.
quote:
Originally posted by Badger
In my own caveman like way, I am wondering if we aren’t taking a sledgehammer, to crack an egg here.
As far as saying that we are cracking an egg with a sledgehammer, maybe we are. But as for myself I rather think we are here discussing about the future of CRPGs and the impact that a game like Morrowind will have on the genre.
I think we all agree that perfect freedom (read non-linearity) in a CRPG will not happen in our lifetime. The level of AI needed for that is simply not in today's programming capacities.
I think the real question we should be asking is if Morrowind is as non-linear as CRPGs can be in this day and age? Is Morrowind the (or one of the) game that truly defines the limit of freedom in a CRPG today? I think it is, and considering the past history of CRPGs I think it's a bright sunrise foretelling of a bright shining day in the world of the CRPG genre. |
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Fri May 31, 2002 4:06 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
quote:
Originally posted by Glorfindel
Since this is a thread full of intelligent and articulate contributors, I'm interested in knowing how deep people are getting into role playing. I have been playing CRPGs for about 15 years now and Morrowind offers by far the best role playing 'opportunities' of any game since the earlier Ultimas.
I whole heartidly agree with you Glorfindel. There is a nice discussion allready going on about role playing in Morrowind and you should look at it, there are some nice answers there!
Roleplaying does enhance the experience if someone is so inclined, and maybe it helps the non-linearity a bit. But I don't think that by changing the quest dynamics as you described it would make the game's quests feel less linear. It's more a question of the world adjusting to your actions, as Xen allready exposed.
The thread for roleplaying is here: http://www.rpgdot.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=7922. |
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Fri May 31, 2002 4:16 pm |
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Shadeling
Head Merchant
Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 64
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Heehee. The moderators here are so great. Thanks for fixing my post!
_________________
=Member of the Non-Flamer's Guild
"Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night." - Edgar Allen Poe |
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Fri May 31, 2002 5:13 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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A quest is a goal. Goals are linear.
A hierarchy structure to the guilds is linear.
The main story is linear.
Walking between two towns is linear.
Choosing when you want to do any of the above, or IF you want to do any of the above is your sense of non-linearity. Discovering that a guild you've been working for is corrupt or not what your character wanted and then walking away or getting kicked out of a guild is freedom of choice.
The fact it doesn't affect the bulk of the game is a great thing.
The fact that you never, ever, ever have to do the main quest is a sense of non-linear development. You walk in to meet the reprsentive... he gives you your first orders... and you say 'Nuts to this! I'm not getting myself killed for the sake of the Emperor!' and continue on your merry way... rising through the ranks of local guilds and doing whatever you want.
Now that's freedom. But if you ever change your mind and decide you want to complete the game you simply wander back and ask for your job back. That's completely non-pressuring.
If you want to complete Morrowind in 12 hours... do it. If you want to take 12 years... do that too. That's why I like this game much better than Daggerfall. Same open-endedness, no deadlines.
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Fri May 31, 2002 6:03 pm |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
quote:
Originally posted by Shadeling
Well, IMO, as far roleplaying games go, Morrowind is the most opened ended of all of them. The reason why I consider it to be non-linear is because you don't HAVE to play the main quest in order to play the game. There are a multitude of other options and paths available to take that make it possible not even to follow the main quest and still have a very enjoyable gaming experience. Most other games you can't do that. Gothic, comes to mind, as one of those. Thus, Morrowind is very non-linear.
This is true only because of MW's size, games like Gothic and Arcanum could support that kind of game play if they were the size of Morrowind. Gothic, in particular, plays indentical to MW if you ignore the story and just play it. The only difference is that Gothic's world isn't big enough to support free form gameplay indefinitely.
There are other paths to follow in Morrowind, certainly, and they are fun enough. MW doesn't confine you to the story but if you choose not to follow the story then you have to accept the fact that there is no story.
I guess I should mention that I understand Morrowind's place in the development of non-linear games. I'm aware that Bethesda started the entire non-linear movement with Arena and that Morrowind is the result of the evolution of the Elder Scrolls line.
Is Morrowind the most open ended? Certainly! Because of the sum of it's parts, which includes it's size, MW supports free form game play better than anything else. Is Morrowind revolutionary? Not to me, it simply uses tried and true gameplay methods (many of which, I admit, were invented by Bethesda) on a much more grand scale.
This discussion keeps coming back to this part--I've never said that Morrowind doesn't offer a good free form gaming experience. I've also never said that it wasn't among the most non-linear of modern games within the limits of technology. What I said, originally, is that linearity and non-linearity are absolutes! All of these examples of "the most non-linear out there" don't apply to my original point--something is either non-linear or it's not and I can't see any way that MW is truly non-linear.
Shadeling--it's obvious that you still think I'm attacking Morrowind itself--I assure you that I'm not. I don't know how to put it any more clearly, I like Morrowind the way it is, I think it's a great game! I have issues with all the hype about MW's non-linearity!
A lot of people seem to be saying, in effect, that all you need to do to make a game non-linear is to make it really big, make lots of re-spawning monsters and add oodles of quests that don't need to be done in any particular order! Those elements don't create non-linearity, it creates an illusion, which is fine because it's a believable illusion.
Siegfried and Roy put on a really great, believable and fun show... but it isn't magic!
_________________
''Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always think that the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied. Look at me: I design coastlines. I got an award for Norway.''--Slartibartfast |
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Sat Jun 01, 2002 2:08 pm |
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Lordr31z
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 190
Location: United States of America |
Gig, stfu. You have no idea what you are talking about. Posting quotes and answering them is an illusion that you know what you are talking about.  Morrowind is not linear. You have a choice to do what you want or play the story. |
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Sat Jun 01, 2002 8:41 pm |
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Badger
Stripey Forest Dweller
Joined: 18 Mar 2002
Posts: 924
Location: UK |
Lordr31z, there is no call to be rude to Gig!!
Nobody is attacking the game here. Points of view as to the nature of linearity are being discussed in a mature, constructive and interesting way.
(albeit a bit above my head in places)
Gig takes points from various posts in this thread and comments on them. The easiest way to remind us all what was said, is with a quotation.
You don't agree with Gigs point of view on this issue? Tell her why she is wrong with a well thought out list of points that support your argument. But don't post a comment like "STFU" because it's just unpleasant, And don't tell someone that they don't know what they're talking about, without backing up that statement with an opinion of your own. Because that just makes you look stupid and I'm sure you're not.
You know what?.. Could the moderator please remove the post in question? Because it is just an insult to the good people who have made this thread such an interesting one to read, and it just makes me sad.
Badger |
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Sat Jun 01, 2002 9:27 pm |
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Guest
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HAHA. No that was actually a friendly post. A list? You tool. When someone is right they only need a few words not some fake list full of useless comments. |
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Sat Jun 01, 2002 9:48 pm |
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Lordr31z
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 190
Location: United States of America |
Hmm. Gonna have to start manually logging in. That is my post above.  |
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Sat Jun 01, 2002 9:51 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
Lordr31z, I suggest you take Badger's advice lest you recieve a hammer stroke to the head courtesy of me. I will not delete the post as it is not my place. I will leave that to Incindium or Danicek as they are the moderators of this forum. But I will tell you to behave yourself.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Sat Jun 01, 2002 10:45 pm |
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Lordr31z
Captain of the Guard
Joined: 11 May 2002
Posts: 190
Location: United States of America |
Ok ill say i am sorry but you gotta admit sometimes you just cant take endless rambling. I couldnt help it i lost control. Ok im cool and back to normal no more insults. I must apologize to the public. SORRY GIG |
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Sun Jun 02, 2002 3:57 pm |
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