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Side Quest: What are the stats on that?

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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land

Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia

Side Quest: What are the stats on that?

Last time we looked at digital delivery. While 31% of readers would prefer to order a boxed copy online, 25% are ready to embrace it. Around 27% of readers have reservations, while only 11% prefer to visit a retail store. This week grab a coffee to stay awake for a long ramble on the importance of stats.
 
<table cellpadding="1" align="center"><tr><td width="200"><a href="http://newspics.rpgdot.com/imageview.php?dir=gallery/895/Screenshots/&name=20050607003520.JPG" target="ImageView"><img src="http://newspics.rpgdot.com/gallery/895/Screenshots/tn_20050607003520.JPG" border=0 alt="Display full image"></a></td></tr><tr><TD align=middle width=200>Jade Empire: helped or hindered by streamlined stats?</TD></tr></table> Earlier this week we broke the story that Heretic Kingdoms 2 was under development according to Chris Bateman’s <a href="http://www.onlyagame.typepad.com/" target="_blank">blog</a>. Chris is a great writer with some good games under his belt such as Discworld Noir and, or course, Kult: Heretic Kingdoms – but he is also a respected game design academic, so his thoughts are always interesting. Chris’ comments arose from an entry by Peter Berger, who writes some entertaining stuff at <a href="http://www.tgr.com/weblog/" target="_blank">Tea Leaves</a>. Here’s a bit from Peter’s <a href="http://www.tgr.com/weblog/archives/000417.html" target="_blank">Notes on Designing the Perfect RPG</a>:
 
 <blockquote>The future of the CRPG as a genre depends on those pushing past the "show the user a spreadsheet full of numbers that slowly gets bigger over time" model of interaction. The best possible case is probably the disappearance of the genre as a separate recognized class (except among retrogaming fans), and for its best attributes to simply be absorbed by mainstream games, leaving the drudgery, such as inventory management, behind.</blockquote>
 
 There’s a lot in that one paragraph to digest but let’s just use it as a springboard to look at stats in cRPGs.
 
 Statistics have always played a role in cRPGs. Without getting into a “what is an RPG?” debate, I think most players would accept that statistics have to date been a core feature of the genre. Let’s also accept that people play cRPGs for different reasons – be it a genuine desire to create and play a role, a power-gaming desire to maximise a character build, just experiencing the gameworld itself or even playing dress-up with cool equipment. So, the question is: would cRPGs benefit from less reliance on stats – or even the complete removal of stats? Going further: is there a different paradigm without stats that would drive the genre forward?
 
 First, we need to identify what separates cRPGs from other genres such as adventure or action-adventure games. As a group, cRPGs are diverse. Whereas - for example - most first-person shooters are driven by a fairly uniform burst-of-adrenaline action dynamic, cRPGs are a disparate group, so it is hard to throw an inclusive blanket over the entire genre. Story, combat, exploration, quests, puzzles and dialogue are common elements, all of which can be found in other genres to some degree or another. In the end, I think it is the ability for the player to interactively develop their character as they choose (within the structure of the game) as a central plank of the gameplay that most separates cRPGs from other genres. Remove the character development from a cRPG and you end up with an adventure game or squad-based strategy or whatever genre the remaining elements resemble. And while these genres all have their own fans, there is a group of players who enjoy the additional layers of depth and interactivity that a cRPG provides over other forms, as well as those for whom character progression itself is entertaining.
 
 So, there must be some gameplay mechanic to provide that character customisation and development.
 
 Does it have to be through statistics? Well, no. One method is to rely on discrete skills that can be earned/obtained throughout the game – we’ve seen this recently in Deus Ex: Invisible War (Biomods) and to some extent Kult: Heretic Kingdoms (Attunements). One problem with this system is the difficulty providing both sufficient width and depth of skills for players to develop their character in a rewarding way throughout the game.
 
<table cellpadding="1" align="center"><tr><td width="200"><a href="http://newspics.rpgdot.com/imageview.php?dir=gallery/53/Screenshots/&name=house10.jpg" target="ImageView"><img src="http://newspics.rpgdot.com/gallery/53/Screenshots/tn_house10.jpg" border=0 alt="Display full image"></a></td></tr><tr><TD align=middle width=200>Call of Cthulhu: a portent of the future?</TD></tr></table> One other way is to obfuscate the stats. If you have ever looked into Headfirst’s long-delayed Call of Cthulhu: Dark Corners of the Earth, you’ll know this first-person action/adventure game attempts to dispense with an on-screen interface by having the player experience everything through the eyes of the character; a hard blow might make the screen suddenly reel, for example, or poison might make the screen blur and the controls react sluggishly. To a tiny extent, this has also been attempted by Fable with on-screen avatars that change to reflect character’s physical attributes. Now imagine the complexity required to successfully implement this across the board in a detailed cRPG, with character progression. You’ll need to sense the improvement with your sword, see the damage caused by that strike to the enemy, experience your health failing. I have no doubt someone will attempt this one day - and properly implemented it might redefine that over-used term “immersion”…but it simply hides the underlying statistics used by the game mechanics and I for one will still want to know what those stats are – I want more feedback, not less.
 
 Of course, rather than removing stats altogether we could consider simplification and minimising their impact. Ultimately, while it’s basic bad design to have unnecessary stats, it’s no better to simplify them just for the sake of it. As an example, Jade Empire was met with critical acclaim but many reviewers noted reservations. Here’s a snippet from Greg Kasavin’s
 <a href="http://www.gamespot.com/xbox/rpg/jadeempire/review.html" target="_blank">review</a> at GameSpot:
 
 <blockquote>At any rate, fans of the company's previous efforts may be disappointed to find that Jade Empire is in some ways a step backward. While playing, it's hard not to wonder about exactly what the developer was intending to accomplish, since this overly streamlined design ends up leaving out a number of elements that made earlier BioWare RPGs deeper and more engaging by comparison.</blockquote>
 
 Going back to where we started and looking at Chris Bateman’s own cRPG design from Kult: Heretic Kingdoms (and let me note I am a fan of this game) we find the intentionally simplified stats have little impact on the game (and in trying to avoid numeric stats, the ‘F-‘ through to ‘A+’ system is simply more confusing). To be fair, Kult was designed in record time and does successfully innovate in other ways.
 
 It’s time to wrap up this long-winded discourse. I believe the use of stats is the most efficient way of providing a deep and effective character development system. If the stats have little impact on the gameplay, the player is left with a series of useless, meaningless numbers…conversely, a design that integrates the stats into the gameplay - where the stats have a visible impact – rewards the player for developing their character. If there is a problem, it’s with cRPG designs that neuter stats and interfaces that don’t provide clear feedback on what they do in the game.
 
 What’s your opinion on stats? Are they an anachronism holding the genre back? Boring and unnecessarily complex? Or do they provide an avenue for interaction critical to a good cRPG? Hit the poll on the left and we’d love to hear your comments.

Sat Jul 30, 2005 3:58 pm

mogwins
Village Leader

Joined: 15 Jan 2002
Posts: 99
Location: Wales

OK, well, obviously I can only speak for myself, and I’m certainly not going to attempt to define what elements make a game an RPG (for fear of someone from the ‘Codex reading this, deciding I’m “wrong” and attempting to burn down my house/kill my family in revenge), but….

I’ve been playing RPGs on and off since my Amiga days (some 15 years now I guess). I get addicted to them. I invest serious amounts of time in them - sometimes to the detriment of my friends/family/school/work, etc. And sometimes I’ve loved the stories and the settings (Fallout, Torment, etc). Sometimes I’ve not had a clue what was going on and loved it regardless (I refuse to estimate the number of hours I plowed into Might and Magic 2 for fear of spending the rest of the day mourning a lost youth, and I’m not even sure that had much of a plot).

Curiously, there have been a few other games that have made demands of my time that don’t fit the pattern. Two of note were Great Courts 2 and Panza Kick Boxing, 2 sports games. However, both these sports games had something a bit different (for their genre) in common: your character (which you created) gained in powers (be it a cross court backhand or a round-house kick), so even if you lost a match/fight your character probably advanced a tiny amount. This meant that if you persevered long enough you’d eventually overcome your adversary. And I think that’s what I like in a computer game. The knowledge that if I invest enough time my character will eventually become a better person and be able to accomplish the task he’s been set. I don’t want to psycho-analyse myself too much, but maybe I’m afraid that in real-life, no matter how hard I try, there are some tasks that I’m simply not up to.

Following on from this, I’ve always liked it when games give you that carrot to chase. When right at the start of the game you see an area or task that’s so far beyond your current abilities, but you know that if you go off into the world, become stronger in so many ways, then eventually return to triumph. Again, not wanting to read too much into this, but maybe that’s why kids who were just a bit nerdy at school (a high percentage of us RPGers I’d imagine) love going to school reunions and lording over jocks or bullies, now that the tables have turned and being a couple of inches taller or being good at football pales by comparison of a better job that came out of good grades…..

Anyway, to get back to the point, I don’t see how you can have this kind of progression without statistics that improve with time. I suppose they can be “hidden” from the player, but they need to be there under the hood. Though I'm with the poster that I want all the information I can get my hands on.

Mogwins.

Sat Jul 30, 2005 4:00 pm

niteshade
Keeper of the Gates

Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100

I'm a big fan of stastics, but the one thing I really like are transparant statistics. It's no fun for me to choose between raising Strength, Constitution, Agility or Dexterity if I can't easily see what the overall effect of my choice is. I strongly dislike games that give you a bunch of stats to choose from with only vague or general descriptions of what they do. I don't just want to know that raising Strength increases damage. I want to see my damage bonus actually increase when I had points to strength. Even better is when they tell you what the effect will be before you add the point.

Fortunately most modern games realize people like this and give it to them. But I still run into the occasional that does not. One of the reasons I couldn't get into Devil's Whisky (at least in the beta) was the fact that they didn't even give you stastics for your equipment (a cardinal sin in my opinion).

Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:45 pm

JuliusMagnus
Village Dweller

Joined: 30 Jul 2005
Posts: 3
Location: Kunrade

Statistics are very important for an RPG. But I don't play an RPG because of the stats. In my way of playing the stats are only a means to further the story and not a goal of gameplay in itself. For Power-Gamers the stats are a goal in itself.

My goal in an RPG is to experience an adventure in another world, not finding out how I can have the best party or best character build up. I'm not much of a statistics person and in Knights of the Old Republic I also chose the automated option of levelling up, except for a few skills which were in my opinion to neat to leave behind. I'm not the kind of person who gets high looking at excel sheets, determining what skill or feat I should use next. When I played X-men Legends I was really at a loss what skills and feats I should give my character after a level-up, so I started reading a character FAQ, It really ruined the experience for me.

I’m still most happy with the system used in Morrowind were limited stat picking is necessary. Every skill increases with use and only the main attributes can be picked after a level up. But also there you get a hint of what attributes were used most, for instance strength or speed, And a bonus is given for the most used attributes if these are chosen. It works intuitively and doesn't take you out of your role.

I was tempted to say in the poll that stats weren't needed, but what I mean to say is that numbers just don't do it for me. I don't have to see how much damage I deal. But that my character has to feel more powerful if strength is increased and that an enemy which was to difficult for me to beat earlier would now be more easily dominated.

Stats, just as the dice-role, were born out of a need to represent on a table-top game that was otherwise not able to be represented.

Stats will still be needed, because I don't see how a game would run if the variables of different elements and characters can't be measured up to each other, wouldn't the game become more like an ordinary hack-and-slash or fps?

Statistics have to be there for the mechanics of the game to run. But I don't want to be continually confronted by them. I think the Morrowind system reduces the statistic management to just the minimum I like it to be.

Sat Jul 30, 2005 11:41 pm

Mystery Guy
Guest

I hate to say it, but games like Jade Empire are the type that will draw people in and sustain the CRPG hobby. A lot of us old timers who've been around long enough to know what "Goldbox" means often turn our noses up at games like that, but I think we all need to admit to ourselves that for the hobby to flourish, we need to embrace (or at least accept) the casual, "Light on stats" CRPG.

My first CRPG was Ultima Exodus. I've been a PC gamer since 1983 and I'm proud of that fact. I'm also a math nerd who long ago memorized the base THAC0 of every 2nd Edition D&D class from levels 1 to 20. So yes, I love statistics. I CRAVE them. I write them down, print them out...heck, I used that option in Icewind Dale that saved your characters to a .txt file which then let you print them out and use them in your tabletop adventures. I'm one of those guys turning the dice rolls on and enjoying it.

Though we're a dying breed. Attention spans are dwindling, people want their games as fast and easy as their burger king value meals, and folks like me have to suffer for it.

Though, if it means more RPGs and an industry that can sustain itself, I'll gladly sacrifice my enjoyment for the hobby as a whole.

Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:25 am

corwin
On the Razorblade of Life

Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia

I'm definitely not a stats freak, but I'm glad they are there, if only as a measure of my character(s) growth and development. Stats are all inclusive; level is a stat, exp is a stat, health and mana are stats. Bottom line, we need them. Now, should they dominate? Here's one of the major divides in gaming; here's where TB and RT, for example, part company!!

What is important in combat, puzzle solving, diplomacy, etc; my abilities, or those of my character? Should my agility and dexterity with the mouse and/or keyboard be more important than the agility and dexterity my character has? Should I be able to solve a puzzle that my Half Orc Fighter with an INT of 8 wouldn't have any chance of comprehending? What makes for true roleplaying? Should those stats dominate? I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts!!

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Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:07 am

bjon045
Fearless Paladin

Joined: 02 Jun 2003
Posts: 234

Nearly all the good rpgs have had plenty of stats. The only good one I can think of with few stats was Ultima 7. Dumbing down games for the masses is something I find abhorrent.

I like to think of an RPG with a lots of stats as being similar to a game of chess, whereyou can strategise and put a lot of thought into the game. Without those stats you may as well be playing checkers....

Sun Jul 31, 2005 5:41 am

Mystery_Guy
Village Dweller

Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 20
Location: U.S.

bjon045:

Agree completely. The problem is that the stat heavy RPGs always seem to fail somewhere along the line, causing the white shirts who run the hobby to dump them in favor of the easier to sell "Casual" RPGs. They blame a game's stat-heavy style and complexity for its poor sales rather then the bugs or incompleteness that was tuly to blame.

Look at Greyhawk:ToEE. Or Pool of Radiance 2. Or Dungeon Lords. All stat heavy, all a bunch of half-finished RPGs that ended up in the bargain bin. Though ToEE was saved by Livonya and the Circle of Eight, many others never got enough attention to be "rescued" in such a way.

Jade Empire was abysmal. Played it, suffered through it, hated it. Playing a Monk in BG2/NWN/TOEE was a million times more enjoyable (And realistic) then JE. No chance for appearance customization through equipment, no micro management...it just didn't do anything for me.

Now Wizardry 8...that was the greatest CRPG of all time in my opinion. Brenda Braithwaite is a friggin' genius.

Sun Jul 31, 2005 6:11 am

GTaher
Village Dweller

Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 20
Location: Alexandria, Egypt

Who says stats turn off "casual" gamers?
Have there been many hugely successful non-stat focused RPGs?

I think the key to RPGs and what they can bring to other games is the concept of advancement. This means in skills, abilities, equipment and character customisation.

The key - as posters above have mentioned - is to make those stats count! Since most RPGs have you fighting enemies that scale up as you do it can feel like running to stand still. Worse still is when they flood you with data you don't see the sense of.

I thought one of the great strengths of the original Deus Ex was the fact that your aim got better as your skill in weapons got better and this kind of pay-off for stats makes it worthwhile.

I think "casual" gamers will have a surprising appetite for stats if they are packaged right, just as they have huge appetite for grinding-MMOs if they have enough pay-off in gear, customisation, etc (as in WoW).

Business-types seem always to ready to assume their average customer is a simpleton. After all, believing that is easier than having to deliver an innovative product that there customers actually want. But I think the success of games like Baldurs Gate, Morrowind, Deus Ex, NWN, etc show the market knows quality when it sees it.

Stats are not really the issue...its like a carpenter blaming his hammer for a bad table.

Sun Jul 31, 2005 7:58 am

niteshade
Keeper of the Gates

Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100

Hmm....hugely succesful non stat focused RPGS....well you just have to look at the console games to find that. You'd be amazed at the wide variety of people who play RPGS on the console systems, it's really the ultimate forum for casual gamers. Games like The Final Fantasy series are so popular as to almost be mainstream. While these games often have alot of stats, they general make a huge point to give you almost no control over them, and to make it so you can play through the game without ever knowing what they are (other then just knowing what your health and mana are).

Now on the other hand the console games have also given rise to the "tactical RPG" which are often extremely stat heavy. These are quite popular as well, although they don't approach anything close to the level of popularity of the more casual games.

Sun Jul 31, 2005 9:19 am

GTaher
Village Dweller

Joined: 31 Jul 2005
Posts: 20
Location: Alexandria, Egypt

Niteshade...oh yeah...I wasn't even considering consoles (shows where I am coming from) but with everything becoming more multi-platform I guess consoles will be a big driver of type of PC games developed.

But I still believe that its an issue of quality of product (i.e. use of tools, not type of tools) and I guess you somewhat agree based on comments re tactical RPGs.

Again, the issue should be quality of product, you cannot make less/more accessible games by simply adding/removing one design feature.

Oh yeah, and regarding stats specifically - aren't all those Championship Manager games (which look like glorified Excel programs to me) huge sellers?

Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:49 am

niteshade
Keeper of the Gates

Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100

One of the other things console RPGS are known for is introducing stats and complexity slowly over time. Often the game will start out extremely simple with very few stats and customization. As you play they will slowly add more and more options (many of which can be ignored by the casual player, and tinkered with endlessly by the serious player). By the end of the game, things will often be much more complicated then most "hardcore" games, but it all feels managable because it's introduced slowly, and because alot of it can be ignored if you willing to forego the advantages they give. This is one of the many ways that console RPGs will do an admirable job of appealing to serious and casual gamers at the same time.

It's not my intention to glorify console RPGS too much though. They have their drawbacks too, many are mediocre and uninspired and bore you to death with endless easy random encounters, and even the best can never match the quality of the best PC games. But they are a massive driving force behind RPGs these days, in part because they have mastered the art of appealing to casual players and people who don't even know what a RPG is. These days it seems like at least 5 console RPGs come out for every 1 PC RPG.

Sun Jul 31, 2005 4:32 pm

Roqua
High Emperor

Joined: 02 Sep 2003
Posts: 897
Location: rump

This is why we need a split in the genre in my opinion. It also perfectly articulates the divide between gamers and developers. What we want and what they say we want are as different as night and day.

I wish economics would come into play and the lessened demand for catering to the "oldschool" players could be made up for by a higher price tag. I'd sell my left testicle for a new realms of arkania to be made (a non stream lined, dummed down one), my left testicle has an intrinsic value of $99 dollars to me. So i will pay $99 for a real rpg to be made by actual rpg devlopers, be it a crap graphic indie rpg or a fancy smancy one with all the bells and wistles. But, anyhow, I'm done wasting my money on the stupid crap being shovelled at us.

Oh yeah, I like stats.
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Mon Aug 01, 2005 1:39 am

Jay
Fearless Paladin

Joined: 07 Jul 2001
Posts: 245

Stat based games don't sell? The Final Fantasy games would suggest otherwise, and I personally found FF 8 more complicated than any PC RPG. BG 1 and 2 were huges successes, and even Diablo has stats. The fact is that there is a huge user base out there for those type of games, and trying to dumb down those elements means alianating that core group. Deus Ex: Invisible War was not a huge hit, in spite of doing those very things. Dungeon Lords may have been awful, but it was still in the top 10 US PC games sales.

We had the same arguments for Adventure games and Space sim type games. Both are considered dead. But all it would take would be for some one like Blizzard to make a Tie Fighter type game in the Starcraft universe for the genre to be considered resurrected. Mainsteaming gaming has meant that I lost a lot of interest in gaming, and I'm spending a lot more time playing the classics, as they are the type of games I love.

Tue Aug 02, 2005 1:55 pm

niteshade
Keeper of the Gates

Joined: 09 Jul 2005
Posts: 100

I would still consider the FF games to be light on stats. That doesn't mean they are not complicated, but stats are not the reason why they are complicated. Other then health, mana, and attack power stats tend to be irrelevent in these games. What matters if what special attacks and moves you have.

But it is a valid point that both Baldurs Gate and Diablo are extremely stats heavy. In many ways Diablo is all about stats and removing them would have killed the game. So clearly there is a strong market for these types of games still.

Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:48 pm

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