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Dhruin
Stranger In A Strange Land
Joined: 20 May 2002
Posts: 1825
Location: Sydney, Australia |
| Poll Results and New Poll |
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Apologies for letting the poll run so long - real life intrudes, sometimes.
<br>
<br>The last poll looked at which E3 presentation most impressed and the early front-runners moved around a bit. The early lead was taken by Bioshock and clearly Irrational has really impressed with this title. Gothic 3 took a strong lead after a couple of days and ended with 36% of the vote - bear in mind our strong Gothic readership. The Witcher ultimately took 2nd place with 23% and seems to have finally found broad interest. Bioshock finished with 12.4%, NWN2 at 11% (after several controversial days during E3), Dark Messiah 9.4%, Mass Effect 3.7%, Hellgate London 2.9% and Titan Quest 1.5%.
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<br>This week we're asking about encounter and loot scaling in cRPGs. While we're not asking about Oblivion's system specifically, it's obviously a data-point to consider. Assume for the excercise we are not including Diablo-like action/RPGs but more "serious" fare. I was quite surprised to find in my travels a number of people who really liked Oblivion's system while many reject it outright - hit the poll on the left. |
Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:34 am |
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Acleacius
King of the Realms
Joined: 24 Dec 2002
Posts: 453
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I went with Target Scaling.
If they need to do it for a boss encounter it is completly understandable, but having All Gaurds be level 65 cause I am level 50, that is insane and no offense to your encounters Dhruin. 
I mean what the hell kinda RPG game only has 50th level loot everywhere you go at 50th level , everyone has the same armor swords money becomes meaningless and so does dungen clearing.
You said not Dialblo type games but this must be where they get this nonsence from?
I am not even sure it is fair to call Diablo a RPG, actually it would be of an insult to RPGs, RPG Devs and RPG fans.
Just cause you throw some stats at something does NOT make and RPG.
This would mean Angel of Darkness is an RPG, Gezz wonder why RPGDot doesn't have a forum for Angel of Darkness. 
Hell we could slap some stats on Max Payne, that be a hell of great RPG right if we were smoking CRACK.
Oblivion is a very good action adventure but it sure the hell is NOT an RPG, absolutiy no dialogue choices or effects from playing a Role whether Evil, Good or whatever.
PR people have so diluted the name RPG, people actually don't know seem to have a clue.
I am not attcking anyone (well maybe PR people  ) but come on throwing some stats on something and having a so called choice when all the characters basicly turn out the same, except for maybe the birthsigns and half the birthsigns are crap.
I wish we could go face to face with these PR people and have them forced to try to explain how these are RPGs, with hard follow up quetions.
Oh well shoudl be intresting poll, thanks Dhruin. |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:34 am |
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Hindukönig
Guards Lieutenant
Joined: 27 Feb 2004
Posts: 170
Location: Halle (Saale) / Nuremberg [Germany] |
Automatic scaling dilutes the gameplay of any RPG. I don't know who invented it, but it most likely is an invention for the "casual gamer".
Fact is, "real" RPGs just aren't for casual gamers.
Automatic scaling is like calling the player egocentric, because he's not capable of engaging with a fantasy world - so the world has to engage with him. Automatic scaling forsakens the fundamental means of an RPG, because getting better skills and higher levels becomes more or less meaningless. |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:54 am |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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Do we have to do "That's not an RPG!" in every single thread? Who here hasn't said everything they could possibly say on the subject?
Anyway. I like scaling, because it alleviates some of the annoyance of character stats. A few details notwithstanding (scaling by level instead of combat skills, not enough variety in encounters, Kvatch), I thought Oblivion got this exactly right: it let me do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted. |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:08 am |
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Roi Danton
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 02 Mar 2006
Posts: 34
Location: Germany |
In my opinion, scaling has to be used very carefully and not very often. Scaling key encounters is ok, scaling a few selected enemies is ok, too. But scaling the whole world and everyone on it? I don't like it. I really don't like it.
_________________
www.withingames.net |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:57 am |
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InsaneOrc
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 16 Jun 2004
Posts: 27
Location: Germania |
I chose "Carefully targeted scaling is OK", and I think we are d'accord that Oblivion was far, far away from a "carefully targeted scaling" and for me it ruined the fun in the end.*
* No Oblivion-bashing just a fact ... |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 12:41 pm |
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ShadowMoses
Head Merchant
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 69
Location: UK |
I don't like scaling unless there's a point to it. Scaling is mostly used as a cheap balancing tool to make things easier or more challenging to account for different character builds when really the game and it's roleplaying posibilities should avoid the need for it.
If the "end boss" is easy to kill does it really matter? it's just a reflection of your character. The end boss in PS:T or Fallout can be solved just by talking, does it matter that it's not really challenging? i don't think so.
Space Rangers is an example of scaling done well. The universe scales but it doesn't scale with you, it reflects the growth of technology over time and feels very natural. I could be wrong but i think you can also help increase the speed at which tech develops.
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
I like scaling, because it alleviates some of the annoyance of character stats.
...
I thought Oblivion got this exactly right: it let me do whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted.
Perhaps you just don't like rpg's?
_________________
Dak’kon: "Your reasons for your incessant clicking are not *known* to me."
-=:ASHES:=- || -=:Xenus-hq:=- |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:03 pm |
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txa1265
Magister of the Light
Joined: 13 Apr 2004
Posts: 390
Location: Marlborough, MA USA |
I think that targeted scaling is acceptable due to the wide variety of exploration that people do in open games - look at the wide variety of levels people hit Chapter 2 at in Gothic 2, for example.
Ubiquitous scaling kills things somewhat for me - the inability to slavishly battle your way through some area to get to some great prize beyond your current abilities takes away some of the fun. I love working to get the Paladin two-hander 'early' in Gothic 2. Who cares if it will be a while before I can weild it?
Since my first love is FPS, I cite them as a prime purveyor of dumb scaling - the same basic types you took down with two pistol shots early take 8 machine gun rounds later in the game ... for no reason but tension and challenge. That feels much like what was done with much of Oblivion, in a way.
Mike
_________________
Dopelar effect (n.) The tendency of stupid ideas to seem smarter when they come at you rapidly.
Check out my blog. |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:28 pm |
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GhanBuriGhan
Noble Knight
Joined: 03 May 2002
Posts: 208
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To an extent scaling is a mechanism that takes over part of the job of a DM in a CRPG, therefor it's not per se a bad thing. Balance is important, and in a RPG that allows a truly broad range of characters from the diplomat over the druid to the knight, has charcters increase vastly in capabilities over the course of the game, and is freeform on top, it is obviously a little harder to achieve, and scaling may be a necessity. From the list above it should also be clear that scaling merely to "level" as in Oblivion is bound to create new problems - hence the trouble non-combat characters run into in later levels in Oblivion. Skills and specialization should play a larger role.
The other side is that leveling in the extreme focuses the entire world on the player character, and there is just no way to maintain a coherent and believable world that way - unless you manage to also tie the leveling effects into the narrative, which can be done but is in itself restricting on the design. Interestingly I think it would have worked nicely for Oblivion, as increasingly strong and numerous daedric opposition could have been beautifully tied into the storyline.
So I am all for a focused and low key use of leveling. A good design should include arease of increasing difficulty as well as some levelling for the fine-tuning, but avoid creature swapping and obvious immersion brakers, like "high level creature that I have never seen before is now all over the place because I hit level 30". |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:16 pm |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowMoses
Perhaps you just don't like rpg's?
I play them for the exploration, the world sim, and occasionally the story. I won't mind when the spreadsheet side of the game withers away to nothing. |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 3:42 pm |
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ShadowMoses
Head Merchant
Joined: 09 Jun 2005
Posts: 69
Location: UK |
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowMoses
Perhaps you just don't like rpg's?
I play them for the exploration, the world sim, and occasionally the story.
Exploration and the world sim were 2 of the biggest things effected by the scaling in Oblivion. Running around a huge environment with "stuff" in it doesn't make exploration good. Discovery, mystery, finding secrets and unique items is what makes exploration good... at least for me. There was next to nothing to be discovered in Oblivion, nothing meaningfull anyway.
quote:
Originally posted by abbaon
I won't mind when the spreadsheet side of the game withers away to nothing.
You'll be left with something that isn't an rpg.
_________________
Dak’kon: "Your reasons for your incessant clicking are not *known* to me."
-=:ASHES:=- || -=:Xenus-hq:=- |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 4:32 pm |
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dteowner
Shoegazer
Joined: 21 Mar 2002
Posts: 7570
Location: Third Hero of Erathia |
I assume that we're talking about critters and loot dynamically scaling within a given zone, or within a given critter type? The Wiz8 autoleveller, which admittedly many people disliked, did a nice job of keeping the game interesting. There was always a challenge and the loot was always appropriate for the party. The key is that you weren't presented with critters that changed abilities. You got different monsters. Sure, they used the same models to save time and money, but there were distinct and consistent differences between the "varieties".
Thinking back to the M&M series, there was always that quick bit of fun when the wandering monsters for an "intro map" would regenerate and you'd mow thru them like nothing. Meteor showering the goblins around Harmondale (while flying, of course) held a certain joy. That was fun for about one map, and then it was just wasted time. The monsters were no challenge and the loot they dropped was worthless.
Although I don't own Oblivion, it seems like they took scaling too far. To have the same critter get different powers and loot based on the player's level seems to defeat the purpose of levelling.
_________________
=Proud Member of the Non-Flamers Guild=
=Benevolent Dictator, X2/X3 and Morrowind/Oblivion Forums=
Sorry. No pearls of wisdom in this oyster.
RIP Red Wings How 'Bout Dem Cowboys! |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 10:22 pm |
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Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowMoses
Discovery, mystery, finding secrets and unique items is what makes exploration good... at least for me. There was next to nothing to be discovered in Oblivion, nothing meaningfull anyway.
How about some background stories related with the history of the world? In your comment, only "unique items" are related with scaling system. I think GhanBuriGhan was more on the target: too dynamically changing bestiary according to "monster"-level-scaling breaks the believability/consistency of the world, though.
As a PnP RP gamer as well, I always found CRPG level itself absurd. Even in level-based systems, level 30 is rare in PnP RPG and such systems are for power-gaming. I prefer level-less skill systems, where characters feel more humane. There are times when I feel "realistic" action games are much more believable than CRPG are. If only they are able to offer various choices in solving quests/missions and engaging interactive story-lines, I'd find them more of role-playing than some CRPG with absurdly "strong" characters. |
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Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:54 pm |
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abbaon
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 Feb 2006
Posts: 64
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowMoses
Exploration and the world sim were 2 of the biggest things effected by the scaling in Oblivion. Running around a huge environment with "stuff" in it doesn't make exploration good. Discovery, mystery, finding secrets and unique items is what makes exploration good... at least for me. There was next to nothing to be discovered in Oblivion, nothing meaningfull anyway.
Yes. But I don't blame the scaling. It didn't suck the unique design touches out of the game. The designers could have created all the unique items, NPCs, and locations that their hearts desired, tied them to your level the way they did quest NPCs and Umbra's armor, then hidden them and made you find them. Instead, they attached (practically) every unique moment to a quest, to give every player a chance of seeing them. I lament that decision, because it reduced my exploration to "find Morrowind at the edge of the map", but the scaling hardly forced it.
quote:
You'll be left with something that isn't an rpg.
Yes. My ideal RPG wouldn't really qualify as one. But for now, I have to play RPGs, because I can't get that experience - exploration + world sim - from any other genre. |
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Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:58 am |
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Sir Markus
Counselor of the King
Joined: 11 Jan 2002
Posts: 369
Location: Columbus, Ohio USA |
I think the problem with Oblivion is it doesn't have enough of a 'sense of danger.' Wandering around in the wilderness with a level one character in a CRPG should be dangerous, and it's not in Oblivion. In other words, it's too easy. I love the game and respect what it's brought to the table of the CRPG world, but I think I've only 'died' 3 or 4 times since I installed it, and I've logged at least 65 hours. Like I said I respect the game for it's technical achievements, but I think it gets boring kind of fast for my tastes. |
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Tue Jun 06, 2006 6:51 am |
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