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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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| RPG Rants -- my shots at a few recent RPG's ... |
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Morrowind ---> No challenge for high level characters let alone mid level characters. Unexcuseable. Really boring melee system.
Gothic ---> Only one available PC look. How lame.
NWN ---> Single player campaign so absolutely convoluted and boring. Zero player freedom, invulnerable unhittable NPC's.
Bioware games in general ---> EVERYONE WEARS TIGHTS.
Arcanum ---> Graphics suck. Animations are severely childlike. Big time lack of customizing PC look. These things kill immersion factor for me so they go beyond just looks in my opinion.
Wizardy/MM series games/ Krondor (any game where you have first person singular view but you are actually controlling an entire party you cannot see ---> just make these games for single PC's only please this weird systems being used in these kinds of games is horrible for immersion for me.
Pirates of the Carribean ---> Boring area layout. Silly claim to have a 'random quest generator'. All they had was random NPC placement in some of the little enclosed areas. Pirate avatar could only be male. No way to change clothes, get a cool pirate hat/coat/pegleg/bird. Absolutely ZERO character customization options as far as appearance go. 100% retarded enemy AI. Pathetic enemy behavior all around. Conversation made ZERO impact on game. Normally there was only one response eyt they actually had the gall to put the conversations in conversation boxes and tried to pass on some kind of illusion that there was interraction involved in conversations ... just show us a cutscene if we can't alter the outcome of a conversation please ... or more appropriately STOP MAKING RPG'S BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY MISS THEN BIGGEST POINT OF ROLE PLAYING.
All game developers in general and mostly focussed on lazy ass computer game developers ---> BUGS! discontinue releasing bug fests to us or you will lose at least one customer. My list of developers to avoid just keeps growing and growing. I can't be the only gamer who feels this way.
My opinions are based on what I like, not what you like, so let's try to avoid the 'who's right?' syndrome and focus on interchange of opinion and idea. We're ALL right because we are talking opinion here. |
Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:09 am |
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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
I'm not asking who's right, I just wonder why do you play CRPGs with such attitude anyway? I.e. if no game suits you, just switch the genres 
_________________
- Druids do not fight with metal weapons! Sit here, and you over here. Put the elbows of your right arms on the table...
- Arm-pulling? Get me back me pan!
R.A.Salvatore The Cleric Quintet. Canticle |
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Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:31 am |
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Remus
Overgrown Cat
Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 1657
Location: Fish bowl |
Morrowind - Excellent: 1) the best 3D CRPG (2002) - environments, sky, wheather, rain, thunderstorm, sandstorm, wind, dynamic day & night schedule. 2) Sound FX & Music - very good, epic. 3) Excellent mod tool - very active modding community & ton of plug-ins, continuously providing new & refreshing gameplay for Morrowind. 4) Massive SP RPG.
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Gothic 1 & 2: 1) Very good on NPCs behavior, daily activies schedule. 2) Interesting storyline and plot 3) very good in executing/implementing main quest and main quests. 4) huge and immersive game world.
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NWN - 1) Average/decent Single-player campaign, but 2) excellent multiplayer component and very successfull/wellcome by many D&D and CRPG fans. 3) Excellent mod tool, active modding community and ton of mods to continuosly providing fresh contents for it buyers.
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Diablo 2 - 1) good replaybility although a little too much hack & slash 2) Excellent skills system and loot system. 3) Excellent/unprecedented quality for the in-game cut-scenes to convey story and for advancing plot. 4) Good Sound FX & music.
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Dungeon Siege 1) Ultra action CRPG even beyond Diablo.... don't like it, it's not action-RPG anymore, it's action game, and if i want action game, i play games from FPS genre. 2) In all fairness, nice graphic though.
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Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader - Already start playing; 1) pretty much similar game quality to Divine Divinity for early part of the game, but latter on/before halfway the game turn into Dungeon Siege, &%$#@..... 2) Very good Voice acting 3) Nice d20 system. 4) decent storyline.
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Divine Divinity - 1) Nice "Total RPG" principle in designing game, and implemented fairly well/very good in game. b) Good graphics, c) Good Sound FX & music. d) Nice main quest and side-quests, e) good amount of interactions (NPCs and items)
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Arx Fatalis - 1) Immersive atmosphere 2) Good Sound FX & music. 3) nice main quest.
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quote:
Originally posted by stanthony
I'm not asking who's right, I just wonder why do you play CRPGs with such attitude anyway? I.e. if no game suits you, just switch the genres
I'm about to say the same question.
Last edited by Remus on Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:16 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:06 pm |
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Chicknstu
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 15 Jun 2003
Posts: 32
Location: Dundee, Scotland |
It's interesting that most of the problems you point out are purely asthetic ones. Graphics, and the look of your character. You'll play the same game either way, but the option to create your own character adds a lot to the experience. It's not a massively difficult thing to program, depending on how far you want to go with it. it's mostly is left out of games where they want to be plot-heavy. Also, you'll have to program different reactions of NPC's, tavern regulars may react differently to a brutish half-orc than to a half-elf female seductress!
I thought yhte graphics to Arcanum were great, my main problem with that game was that it's sooo hard!
stu |
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Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:10 pm |
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Azkiel
Eager Tradesman
Joined: 14 Apr 2002
Posts: 42
Location: Montreal |
Morrowind
I agree that Morrowind is quite a boring game, the lack of NPC day/night schedule really disapointed me. Although the game is very nice graphically speaking.
Gothic I & II
The best RPG available in the last years.. In this case I don't really care about customizing the look of the PC, although I would have like more skills/stats (but even then, Gothic is almost perfect).
NWN
I agree that the single campaign was at best boring, but I must say I base my opinion on the 2 first chapters, I was unable to get the courage to continue after that. Overall Single player NWN was for me a disapointment and I never had the chance to play online with some friends.
Divine Divinity
Was a great game, although I lost interest at 3/4 of the game and put the game aside a few months before finishing it The sub-quests and humour really add something to the game. I would have like to have a more "living" setting, i.e. like Ultima 7 I would have like to have more cities, island, etc..
In response to Kabduhl rantings about the Wizardy/MM style of game; these game have been existing since Dungeon Master and are usually more "old-school rpg" and does not appeal to everyone. Just don't play/buy them!  |
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Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:05 pm |
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elkston
High Emperor
Joined: 21 Sep 2002
Posts: 691
Location: North Carolina, USA |
Have you tried Dungeon Seige? I'm not trying to be facetious at all. DS does indeed provide a counter to all the problems you listed in your post.
1. Full 3D enviornment with superb graphics, sound, and music
2. A full party of characters that you can ALL SEE and control
3. A main character whose look you can fully customize
4. Polished, well designed interface
5. Well done animation and character models
6. Adjustable difficulty levels
7. Lots of interesting items with GREAT graphics models
The main problem with DS despite all these big plusses is that it is a pretty shallow game expereince when you take it as a whole.
- NPC interaction occurs only on the most superficial levels (no branching conversations),
-The combat is VERY automatic and while there is a smattering of strategy, you still end up feeling like you are watching a movie.
-The single player game is extremely linear. I'm not saying that all linearty is bad, but you are literally on rails for the whole game
-A plot exists, but is really incidental to the action. This wouldn't be so bad if the "action" was more appealing.
So what does this tell you? It tells you that every game designer makes compromises and decisions about where the focus of development should be. DS decided to focus on ease of use and quick immersion in the game world. They achevied a LOT of this, but still missed the mark on some key areas that would have made the game a lot more fun.
The same with the other games you mentioned.
The Gothic games provide a very complete and enjoyable RPG experience. One of the sacrifices the devs made in this case was to limit you to one main character so they would only have to animate and model his actions. This left them more time to focus on the realisitc NPCs, the lush graphics, beautiful spell effects, plot, etc. So you can't customize your character? This is a minor point compared to all the other MAJOR things that Gothic gets right.
Morrowind provides a HUGE (but somewhat boring) world to explore, a wealth of character customisations, and TONS of interesting items. What they sacrificed was the details: Meaningful NPC interactions, good character model animation, and most importantly -- a world that is FUN to explore.
The focus on MW seemed to be QUANTITY over QUALITY. They ended up giving you a huge numbers of mediocre things instead of scaling down the scope of the game and providing a fewer number of GREAT things.
So I think your rant is constructive somewhat because it is our right to speak up about what qualtities will go into our ULTIMATE RPG.
It's just worthwhile to appreciate how much work really goes into making a game and what sacrifices need to be made in order to bring the game to market in a reasonable time. The problems arise when a game implements its areas of focus badly OR when the game tries to focus on too many aspects, and ends up doing a half-assed job on all of them.
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All shall hear the words of Karras...the words of Karras |
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Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:28 pm |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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It is important to note that I really like all those games ... some things just irk me about them.
As for switching genres RPG is really the only genre in video gaming I enjoy (unless it's deathmatch with my bro and friends).
I just thought I would take some quick 'shots' [suckerpunches maybe?] at some of the better RPG's because they too have problems. |
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Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:37 pm |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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quote:
Originally posted by stanthony
I'm not asking who's right, I just wonder why do you play CRPGs with such attitude anyway? I.e. if no game suits you, just switch the genres
So according to your logic I can't find fault in games or genres that I like?
I am just listing the key points that irk me about some of my favorite RPG's. |
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Fri Aug 22, 2003 10:40 pm |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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To be fair I just noticed I had Pirates of the Carribean up there and I didn't like that game. The rest of the games I listed I enjoy very much.
(some good stuff -- shhh don't tell people I'm being nice)
Gothic ---> amazing. story = awesome, graphics = awesome, combat = awesome (it was fun to be a fighter), exploring = awesome, balance between non linear and linear = very well done. I really really love this game. My ideal game is a merger of the best parts of Gothic and Morrowind.
Morrowind ---> I love this game so much that I am even more dissappointed that the stock game did not provide a challenge for my mid level and up characters. (and by the way I kill creeper and mudcrab and I don't train my skills (with cash at trainers) in Morrowind and I still find lack of challenge disturbing. I guess it's because I just want to keep playing but there is no real conflict so no sense of tension.
Arcanum ---> awesome setting, wonderful dialogue, lots of choices to be made, non linear alot of the time, decent challenge, REALLY fun and awesome character creation/advancement system, bonus for providing both turn based and continuous combat, superb writing, big world, cool quests, fun game
Wizardy ---> Cool party building system, great character system (probably the best one out there for me), challenge (this game can be quite tough -- good for Sir Tech!) I wish it was made with a single player character in mind however (like a choice to play in SOLO mode that would spawn less enemies to balance the game out - or something like that) ... it bugs me so bad that I supposedly have 6 (up to  characters I am controlling and we all share the exact same viewpoint and move at the same time etc ... I can and do overcome this (I play Wiz 8 ALOT) but I wish it was different.
NWN ---> Yes modding is fun and infectious. I am in fact working on a massive design document for my next NWN single player module. I figure I'll spend around 1 year designing scripts and planning the module before I ever get involved in actually putting it together in the toolset. My biggest gripe here is that the single player campaign was so boring I couldn't force myself to get past chapter 2. I am normally a voracious game player who loves to play games to completion and then some but this hideous single player campaign that shipped with NWN makes me want to beat my head in frustration against iron spikes while drinking drano through an infected intestine of a rabid badger. Thankfully fan made modules exist. SoU is seeming to be a better single player experience. Cool new tilesets and prestige classes. Yay! |
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Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:00 pm |
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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
@Kabduhl - Hey, I didn't say you can't find faults in favorite games. It is just your initial post sounded like you really hate CRPGs with all your heart, you always hated and you always will  I'm glad I was wrong! Thanks to your later posts.
Critique is always a good thing. Me and my bro we can spend hours sipping coffee chatting about "what we would do different in NWN multiplayer" or "why this or that feature of "Hearts of Iron" is not exactly well balanced".
Now let me look at your list of games.
Gothic - I'm not really a Gothic player. The game is all good, I agree with all its pluses and completely understand people who like it, but it's just not my cup of tea.
Morrowind - ahhhhh... sweet Tamriel. I fought my way to Vvardenfell through both Arena and Daggerfall. It is very important part of my life. My views on MW are somewhat of "hardcore" TES fan - yes, it's is great, and...well...it could be much better. There is always some things you want back from Daggerfall, horses for one thing  Those giant bugs just won't do! I roleplay. I use realism plug-ins, such as Primary Needs. I try to live in Morrowind. If my char will not do smth I will not either. I finished main quest two times, and, honestly I cannot say I felt overpowered. Yes, battles were not all hard. But I felt according to my role... Like that of the inquisitor for the Tribunal Temple Non-linearity was not a problem for me after years with Dagger, so... MW was a game of last year for me. Absolutely. However, I expected tribunal to be more. And I really not satisfied by the Bloodmoon. No. FedEx just becoming plain stupid. And NPC behavior didn't changed a bit. These are among other things. Shame on Bethesda.
Wizardry - My life in CRPGs began with Wiz series. After early games that were cool I really loved Crusaders of the Dark Savant. Wiz8 was everything i wanted and more. This game is an icon. Complexety - in good sense - of the role system just makes me happy. I felt as close to PnP as it was possible. Minuses of Wiz8 for me: too static world, too static world, and too static world.
NWN - You know I play PnP D&D Now I often play... how to put it... Keybord'n'Monitor D&D Yes I love this game. As I do absolutely love all previous Infinity games. I cannot say anything bad about any of them. Yes, I can say a lot about implementation of PnP rules, and how it should be done in my mind in Infinity games, but... I was just happy to play D&D on PC and that's it. Not to sound so enthusiastic... well...NWN could use another form intreface (not so radial ). That's all.
Might & Magic - classics, and for this alone I played MM9. I loved MM6 and 7. MM8 seemd a little strange to me, but I played a troll and somewhat forgot about weird mixed class-race system and other minuses.
Diablo, DS - not my cup of tea again. Half Life is more than enough
Pirates - Just saw a movie today. It was fun ok. I didn't play game yet, but I will give it a try, simply because I have a friend who worked for Akella (developer). Gotta see how he did his job
Ouch! This was a big post. I hope we understood each other now, Kabduhl. It's good to play and it's good to say nasty things about your favorite games! Amen
_________________
- Druids do not fight with metal weapons! Sit here, and you over here. Put the elbows of your right arms on the table...
- Arm-pulling? Get me back me pan!
R.A.Salvatore The Cleric Quintet. Canticle |
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Sat Aug 23, 2003 12:22 am |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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I can say with a high degree of certainty (even if the devs at Akella are not allowed to say) that Pirates problems stem entirely from being rushed. 1 more year of work and it could have been spectactular. They have the talent they just needed the time to finish the project. |
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Sat Aug 23, 2003 2:34 am |
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corwin
On the Razorblade of Life
Joined: 10 Jun 2002
Posts: 8376
Location: Australia |
That's the cry of every developer!!
_________________
If God said it, then that settles it!
I don't use Smileys, I use Emoticons!!
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Sat Aug 23, 2003 5:17 am |
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stanthony
One Smart Dog
Joined: 28 Oct 2002
Posts: 556
Location: Tallinn, Estonia |
quote:
Originally posted by Kabduhl
I can say with a high degree of certainty (even if the devs at Akella are not allowed to say) that Pirates problems stem entirely from being rushed. 1 more year of work and it could have been spectactular. They have the talent they just needed the time to finish the project.
That's very true. They started 'Pirates' as an independent project with no connection to either Disney or the movie. It was supposed to have a different name. But at some time Akella signed a contract with Disney to make a pirate game and release it simultaneously with the movie. They probably though that it will sell better especially in the West (Akella is Russian developer) if they put Disney mark on the box and associate it with the movie... IMHO it was not a good turn.
_________________
- Druids do not fight with metal weapons! Sit here, and you over here. Put the elbows of your right arms on the table...
- Arm-pulling? Get me back me pan!
R.A.Salvatore The Cleric Quintet. Canticle |
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Sat Aug 23, 2003 7:03 am |
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Kabduhl
City Guard
Joined: 01 Feb 2003
Posts: 127
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it's a real shame because you can 'feel' the potential ... i really really wanted to love this game ... i feel bad for the devs at akella, however, i hope they clear some profit from this game and turn around and give us something straight from the heart next time .... |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:45 am |
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Hexy
High Emperor
Joined: 28 Jun 2002
Posts: 621
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quote:
Morrowind ---> No challenge for high level characters let alone mid level characters. Unexcuseable. Really boring melee system.
Gothic ---> Only one available PC look. How lame.
NWN ---> Single player campaign so absolutely convoluted and boring. Zero player freedom, invulnerable unhittable NPC's.
Bioware games in general ---> EVERYONE WEARS TIGHTS.
Arcanum ---> Graphics suck. Animations are severely childlike. Big time lack of customizing PC look. These things kill immersion factor for me so they go beyond just looks in my opinion.
You seem quite obsessed with graphics, and I guess that's kind of sad. You know, disregarding story and circumstances. Why does Gothic have only one character look? Hello, story?
Zero player freedom in NWN single-player? What kind of hacked version did you get, man? Because, as FAR as I REMEMBER, there were PLENTY of side quests and such. Story MAY have been boring, but there were lots of stuff to do, and skills to use.
Graphics suck because you can't customize your character in Arcanum? I found the graphics pretty nice, but whatever. And, furthermore, how is Arcanum a RECENT game?
Exchange opinions and ideas? On what? Your opinions? Which we aren't allowed to discuss? Okaaaaaaaay...
_________________
Like some bold seer in a trance;
Seeing all his own mischance |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 9:53 am |
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