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Brenner
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 May 2002
Posts: 102
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everything in life is linear when you look backwards and connect the dots between the points of your life where you made decisions. Morrowind is linear in the sense the quests occur in the same order from the same houses each time through, and non linear in respect to how you choose to progress as well as how you choose to complete your orders (or if you choose to at all). each decision, as in life, has consequences, and while it is linear in the end, your lines might not travel the same path as someone else's. |
Wed May 29, 2002 6:14 pm |
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Warmaster-Horus
Most Exalted Highlord
Joined: 28 Apr 2002
Posts: 421
Location: Eye of Terror, Washington |
Very good description of the way morrowind plays 
_________________
Ater deus praevalo
=Leader of the Horus Heresy=
=Champion of Khorne=
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD SKULLS FOR THE THRONE |
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Wed May 29, 2002 7:04 pm |
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Ekim
Eagle's Shadow
Joined: 27 May 2002
Posts: 2365
Location: Montreal, Canada |
Gig, you bring in some good, decent points to the argument. I didn't think you were flaming at all, and I hope you didn't think that of my post either because I wasn't  I just think we healthily disagree on this topic.
But, could I ask you what you would consider to be non-linear in a game like this then? I mean, considering all the limitations of technology, how could this game be more non-linear? Seeing as you think it's more linear than it first appears (and you might be right) how could it be different in your point of view? |
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Wed May 29, 2002 7:41 pm |
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Badger
Stripey Forest Dweller
Joined: 18 Mar 2002
Posts: 924
Location: UK |
Thanks Gig for the word to the wise.
I expect you're right about having a pretty good idea of what I am hoping to find in Morrowind. I'm not expecting any nasty suprises though. I've been lurking around the Morrowind forum for a couple of weeks now. I just haven't been saying much. (I can see the headlines now... "Badger in Keeps His Mouth Shut Shocker!") I've seen enough debate in here to know that what I am getting on Friday, (Friday Friday Friday Friday) is a gem, but a slightly flawed gem none the less.
I'll forgive it having linear portions, cause I have been waiting for it for so long that I KNOW IT WILL BE A JOY TO PLAY! There! As I have spoken.. so let it be done.
Incidently, I have (as you know) been Stripey since 1963!
All the best
Badger. |
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Thu May 30, 2002 8:09 am |
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Gig
Southern Spirit
Joined: 20 Feb 2002
Posts: 3226
Location: NFG Headquarters |
You're very welcome Badger!
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
Gig, you bring in some good, decent points to the argument. I didn't think you were flaming at all, and I hope you didn't think that of my post either because I wasn't I just think we healthily disagree on this topic.
But, could I ask you what you would consider to be non-linear in a game like this then? I mean, considering all the limitations of technology, how could this game be more non-linear? Seeing as you think it's more linear than it first appears (and you might be right) how could it be different in your point of view?
Oddly enough, because of this thread, I spent much of last night thinking about what is necessary to make a game actually non-linear. What a RPG game must have to be truly non-linear is... drum roll please... Val!
I was thinking about it and I realized that the only non-linear rpg I've ever played is here on the RP forum. Val and Airk have the ability to realize that the the game pace is slowing down and that players are losing interest. They are very good at compensating for this and getting interest back on track. You can't really get so bored that you don't really care if you ever play again.
I now think that non-linearity in a RPG game is just a fantasy. I'm at the "I'll believe it when I see it!" stage. I don't think there will be a game that's actually non-linear until game A.I. makes some kind of world stunning breakthrough.
In a non-linear game the story is nothing more than an outline. The DM (I think) starts with a direction to lead the story, a basic idea of the story's ending and maybe a few basic goals for the players to reach. This evolves as the game progresses into something that's, possibly, completely different from what it started out as. I know this happened to Airk on the RP thread. Even though the story has grown into something far different than he originally conceived it's still progressing. If the OC thread ever ends the conclusion will probably be completely different from Airk's original idea. This change happened because the DM's responded to the players actions. The story is evolving around the players--the players aren't confined to the story. If a player chooses not to follow the main story then a new story must develop (which is how I interpret RL, BTW, Brenner ).
So... I don't believe we will see a truly non-linear CRPG until the computer can, at least quasi-believably, simulate a live DM! The game will have to make use of a partially pre-conceived yet modifiable world and it will need to be able to start with a story outline only. The players actions must create the story directly, so the game A.I. will need to be able to make up the story as it goes, just like a live DM. Since players can conceive of nearly limitless possibilities, the game must be able to respond with nearly limitless options... just like a live DM. There must be an infinite number of possible game endings because the end develops from the game that was played... just like a live DM and so on and so on, I'm sure you see what I'm saying.
A live DM's ability to respond to the sudden, unexpected decisions of the players is what makes a game non-linear. A live DM is playing the game as much as the players are, they just do it in a different capacity. The computer DM will need to be able to play in this manner as well. EverytingXen tells the story of a game he once DM'd in another thread. In this game one of the players did something completely unexpected which caused Xen to respond on the fly. EverythingXen ended up putting a powerful item in the game, which he had never intended to be there, because of the actions of a player. That's what non-linearity actually is--nothing is written in stone.
If you want another example just go to the RP forum and read the OC thread--starting with Airk's first post. You can follow the evolution of a completely non-linear game, written down for all the world to see. The thread is really long at this point so you may have to do it in stages.
quote:
Originally posted by Ekim
"Considering all the limitations of technology, how could this game be more non-linear?"
To answer Ekim's original question--I don't think it can! I don't think it's an issue of more or less non-linear, it's an issue of is or isn't non-linear. I described what I think non-linear means and MW satisfies those requirements on absolutely no level. Morrowind is vast and it's fun and epic and grand and all that stuff, but in no way is it non-linear to me. MW is fine the way it is! The game's great, as a matter of fact, I have no problems with the it! I have issues with Bethesda! I don't believe the game should be hyped as non-linear, to me that's a big, fat, lie!
I have a comparison I could use to show my point better but I won't. If you want to PM me, Ekim, I can tell you what it is and we can discuss it further. Suffice to say that it includes a bad word, apparently, for the Morrowind forum.
Whew... Two essays in one thread! Sorry about that folks.
_________________
''Perhaps I'm old and tired but I always think that the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied. Look at me: I design coastlines. I got an award for Norway.''--Slartibartfast |
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Thu May 30, 2002 2:20 pm |
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Brenner
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 May 2002
Posts: 102
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quote:
The story is evolving around the players--the players aren't confined to the story. If a player chooses not to follow the main story then a new story must develop (which is how I interpret RL, BTW, Brenner ).
An interesting theory for sure. I myself believe that the player is the story unto himself.
The argument about the linearity of the game is heavily centered around the semantics of the very idea of what is linear. I always hated my discrete math professor at university. he was a russian man (not why i hated him) who constantly would stop to delve into the very meaning and concepts of terminoligy that seemed obvious. It has been a few years, and I have had the opporunity to understand why he would do this. Unless everyone has an agreement on terminology, no one will ever be able to communicate their ideas properly because they can't fathom that they are or are not talking about the same thing.
i am going to explain this as best i can, so bear with me.
take a peice of paper and draw two points. now connect them. you can draw the line between them any way you want. draw it stright with a ruler, or freehand, or draw a bunch of scribbles along the way, it makes no difference. hold onto that for a minute and take another peice of paper, or flip that one over, and dot it randomly with as many points as you like (well, at least  . darken two of those points. now connect dots from the first dark point to the last. there are only two constraints. you can only touch 1/3 of the points, and your last point must be the other dark point.
edit: that shaded smiley is supposed to be an 8
now, with each graph, label the dark points birth and death.
the point - perception of existence is linear. you go from point a to point b, making choices along the way that affect the new directions you can take, but in the end, you will reach the same point no matter what. what is non-linear is the path you choose to get there.
given that point, there can be no simulation of existence that is non-linear, at least not within the parameters given above. |
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Thu May 30, 2002 3:31 pm |
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Badger
Stripey Forest Dweller
Joined: 18 Mar 2002
Posts: 924
Location: UK |
Choke....... wow. I hesitate to make any comment, confronted by the combined might of Gig and Brenner, who articulate so beautifully.
But in my own caveman like way, I am wondering if we aren’t taking a sledgehammer, to crack an egg here.
I agree with Gig, that by definition Morrowind can't be completely non linear and I agree with Brenner, that given that the story has a beginning and an end, it is what you decide to do between these two points that is non linear.
(OMG.. my head hurts)
But if Bethesda said that the game was non linear, they weren't lying... they were advertising. Bending the truth to highlight the strongest aspects of their product.
It seems logical to me to assume that in real life you could never have a completely non-linear game. Because all games have to have a structure in order to make sense. All games must have points of familiarity for the player to cling to in moments of need, otherwise they would simply spin directionless on the spot and never achieve anything.
I don't think that Bethesda ever intended their advertising spiel to be taken completely literally, or to be examined quite so scientifically. I think that in an industry full of titles which are linear to the point of being on rails. (Max Pane anyone? Or my old friend Dungeon Siege? Lets face it, we could all think of a dozen) Compared to these extremes, a game like Morrowind would be non linear in as much as that description is ever going to be able to be applied to a computer game.
Urghghg someone fetch Badger Aspirin.... quick. |
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Thu May 30, 2002 4:12 pm |
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Sand
Guest
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Linearity (or lack of it) comes in degrees. You'll always be able to point to aspects of a game and say "that's linear"...but there's still plenty more that can be done to reduce the linearity of a game. Part of the problem with MW, I think, is that it has moved so far ahead in certain areas that it is highlighting long-standing issues in other areas.
The ultimate non-linear game would be something like Sim City with you dropped in the middle. There's a living, breathing world happening around you. Caravans depart from Balmora for Vivec: some are attacked by cliff racers, some by bandits, some make it through. Some get stuck in the mud. The Great Houses battle among each other: one day there is a battle between Telvanni and Hlaalu, the next day there is a trial where the survivors are punished. Catburglars break into houses: some are caught, some survive and pawn their loot in local stores. Guilds suffer turnover as masters retire, journeymen take their place, and new apprentices are admitted. And behind everything, the master plan of the bad guy slowly comes to fruition. All of this is happening whether you witness it or just leave the computer on while you watch the superbowl. Instead of a fixed line of quests leading to a pre-determined order of advancement, quests are dynamically generated as a natural outcome of the world evolving. If you protect a Redoran retainer from an attack, you gain reputation within House Redoran: and may be promoted if you are a member. If you spend too much time brewing potions to increase your level, the vampires might take over a village -- or the bad guy's plot might reach a new, dire level.
Of course, there's no way to do this with current PC technology: the required processing power alone goes way beyond what can currently be done, let alone the AI issues. (I can't thikn of a single RPG where this kind of thing was done...but please, post with exceptions!) But someday this kind of background will be blended with the likes of Morrowind...and it will be cool. |
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Thu May 30, 2002 4:15 pm |
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Val
Risen From Ashes
Joined: 18 Feb 2002
Posts: 14724
Location: Utah, USA |
*blush* As Jaz would say, "Thanks for the flowers, Gig."  
Just you wait till I get my little hands on that DM client for NWN. Oh yes... I will cause havoc the world has never seen!
Please, please, please let it be what they promise!
And, if you like, Jaz has been turning the RPG into simpler chunks of text files. I can e-mail them to you if you like.
Oh, and Badger, here's an asiprin.
*Hands Badger an aspirin.*
I'm greatly enjoying reading this thread.
_________________
Freeeeeeedom! Thank heavens it's summer!
What do I have to show for my hard work? A piece of paper! Wee!
=Guardian, Moderator, UltimaDot Newshound=  |
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Thu May 30, 2002 4:48 pm |
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Loremaster
Village Leader
Joined: 31 Mar 2002
Posts: 88
Location: Hampshire, England |
First off, why have you been waiting this long? Next time, order from Stategic Plus Software and play within a day or two of the US release. Don't wait for the UK to get its act together!
Second, and I apologise for not having read all the posts here, but the simple answer to your question is to play the game how you want to play it. I know some games are said to have favoured templates (Asherons Call comes to mind) but even then that's just today's tip, tomorrow its another template so I'd still say even in those games you should role-play how you want to do and ignore those around you saying "I realised at level 150 that I'd put one point too few into archery so I rerolled".
Last, the game isn't even remotely linear. You're entirely free to do what you want, when you want to, where you want to. If an NPC asks you to deliver a note to someone and the only way you can finish the quest is by delivering the note to that someone does that make the game linear? Of course not! You have complete freedom of choice, and in that example there's nothing to stop you leaving the quest, delaying it, or even killing the end target instead of giving him the note. There'll be consequences of course... Most quests can be resolved in different ways, however, you may choose to bribe someone or indeed to kill him. Few quests are totally linear, the game itself is far from linear.
Enjoy.... but don't wait so long next time |
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Thu May 30, 2002 5:11 pm |
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Squeetard
Head Merchant
Joined: 05 May 2002
Posts: 61
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Don't forget to think about real life for a minute too. Life is full of tasks and goals. Someone asks you to go to the store and get milk do you wander around the neighborhood for a few days?
MW is about as non-linear as it gets. You can lay around and do nothing if you want to. If you want to get ahead/advance your cash/skills you have to do things for people, just like real life. Of course there is a main story, that is there for entertainment purposes, which is why we play right?
Gig has a point though, I would like to see a game where your actions affect the outcome. I'm not just talking 3 different endings either, but an evolving world. |
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Thu May 30, 2002 5:58 pm |
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Badger
Stripey Forest Dweller
Joined: 18 Mar 2002
Posts: 924
Location: UK |
Hi Loremaster
You're right of course. I could have mail ordered, and maybe I should have mail ordered. But rightly or wrongly, I feel that our friends accross the pond sometimes get short changed in the game release department, in terms of how "Finished" the finished product is. Occasionally, a game will have initial problems patched by the time it reaches good old Blighty.
I'm not a complete technophobe, and I will download a patch if I have to. But in the Badgers book, time spent patching is work, and the old stripey fella?...well he just luuurves to play.
Your right..it's been a wait. But tomorrow evening my friend, this fruit is going to be all the sweeter.
Badger
ps: read the rest of the thread.
PPS: Thanks for the Aspirin Val, but I think I need to go lie down now. |
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Thu May 30, 2002 6:01 pm |
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Shadeling
Head Merchant
Joined: 21 May 2002
Posts: 64
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Well, once again Gig and I seem to be on the opposite sides of opinion. I don't agree either that Morrowind is completely linear. I'm still on my first run through the game but from what I've heard, the main quest actually alters by the actions you take and the character you play. How is that linear?
_________________
=Member of the Non-Flamer's Guild
"Those who dream by day are cognizant of many things which escape those who dream only by night." - Edgar Allen Poe |
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Thu May 30, 2002 6:21 pm |
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EverythingXen
Arch-villain
Joined: 01 Feb 2002
Posts: 4342
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I covered this topic as a side note in my article on combat and the evolving needs of computer gamers. Nice to see some very well thought out arguements supporting my opinion that the gaming community as a whole is 'growing up'... and demanding out of their games what they demand out of everything.
No, you can not every truly create a non-linear game. Even with AI it has to 'end' sometime... unless its a MMORPG... which ends, but in an entirely different way as you wander off to another one.
I think what needs to be examined is what is meant by non-linear.
Every game, like every book or movie, tells a story. A story is a logical (or not) sequence of events leading to a conclusion. Thus any game with a story (RPGs in particular) is linear as there is a thread of commonality running the entire way through.
This is a good thing.
Would the story make sense if you could do the pieces completely out of order? If you were able to run to the end of the game and defeat the prime evil guy of game x before you found out in the story who he was? Would it be satisfying? Not really.
Technically speaking... life itself is linear. There's only one beginning story for every human on the planet and ultimately there's only one conclusion. It's the bits in between and how you reach that conclusion that define your own story.
Taken on that basic assumption that human life is linear... because it is, because we exist in a linear time... then nothing will truly be non-linear because it's all measured by our existance, perceptions, and lives.
So what is really desired isn't non-linearity: It's interaction and adaptation to actions taken. Perceived freedom that whatever you do affects the end of the story somehow. If 325,678 people play Morrowind... do you want 325,678 unique stories and endings? I believe you may get the stories... but the endings are an awfully tall order to fill.
Non-linearity, for simplicities sake, is the providence of consciousness, sentience, and creativity. A computer is not conscious. A computer is not sentient. A computer is not creative. Therefore what you want will never happen until they are all three. SHould you stop playing CRPGs as a result of this epic dissappointment?
I wouldn't. Just because the mugs I stole from random NPC house 5 doesn't affect the end of the game doesn't mean the journey isn' t worth it.
Oh, and as an aside... play without reloading except in the case of a crash. Suddenly every action you make, every decision, has ramnifications for your character. The game jumps a thousand points towards 'non-linear' as only the truly cautious or bold will make it to the end while around the world there are thousands of heartbreaks. Fun? Perhaps for some. Realistic/non-linear? Oh yes... brutally so.
Remember... in a role playing game, especially a computer roleplaying game, you take on a finite role for a finite purpose. You are a hero or villain for the purpose of defeating/becoming the big bad guy. Like game modules, CRPGs have very clearly defined beginnings and endings. No pen and paper campaign lasts forever, either.
So it's INTERACTION for the unexpected and a story truly evolving based on the actions of your character that's desired, not non-linearity. You don't want to hear a windows beep and see an error message when you do something the programmers didn't think of... You want it to work or fail. And you want the computer to acknowledge and rewrite core parts of the story as a result of that unexpected reaction. Impossible in a CRPG because the sum of the game is the sum of the programmers, limited to finite coding lines and options.
Enjoy the journey and you'll enjoy a CRPG. Do not anthropormorphosize the poor AI... for it is nothing even remotely human and putting its programing in the same category as our own vastly superior adaptive neural network is similar to comparing a car trip to a train trip. The train is on a rail... it goes in one direction with little deviation (but you can do whatever you want on the train as it chugs along and enjoy the journey, unless, like older CRPGs, you're bolted to the seat and forced to respond to people coming to you). A car trip can change destinations at will or as the situation dictates. Guess which is the superior form of travel as a result?
_________________
Estuans interius, Ira vehementi
"The old world dies and with it the old ways. We will rebuild it as it should be, MUST be... Immortal!"
=Member of the Nonflamers Guild=
=Worshipper of the Written Word= |
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Fri May 31, 2002 12:39 pm |
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Brenner
Keeper of the Gates
Joined: 18 May 2002
Posts: 102
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Well said EverythingXen. I only wish I could articulate my thoughts that well. I think I have spent so much time in the last ferw years with my nose in math, logic, theory, programming, and design books that I have lost the ability to put my thoughts to paper in a way that everyone can understand.
You've encapsulated your ideas with the sentiment and ideas of others in the forum and placed them into one coherent, well thought out post that hits every major point without trailing off or falling into bad examples. (/me looks shamedly at his own posts). Congratulations |
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Fri May 31, 2002 2:15 pm |
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